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  #1  
Old 02-24-2019, 10:52 AM
Sid Post Sid Post is offline
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9mm STI or CZ or ...?

I'm wanting to pick up a really nice 9mm for open carry and possibly some less than "formal" competition. I could see some production or limited class shooting as I approach retirement which is ~10 years away. Right now, I'm mainly into recreational shooting and eliminating aggressive dogs while working my farm (which I could do with most handguns I currently own). I am a Glock'aholic so, a Gen 5 G34 is also under consideration as I want more sight radius than normal full-size pistols but, less weight than my 'nose heavy" G40 feral hog eliminator. Overall size is not a huge factor but, something to consider as I want it to be reasonable to carry holstered in an appropriate holster (i.e. no optically sighted suppressed light equipped pistols ).

I'm looking at something along the lines of a Dawson Super Tuned STI 2011 Edge 9mm or a CZ Target Sport Orange, or CZC or CGW tweaked 75 variant. I'm primarily looking at Single Action options but, something like the CZ with a very nice SA and a 'double strike' feature is under consideration as well. LEM and DAK triggers are doable but, I'm thinking I would stay with a Glock over those options.

How does the STI and CZ compare to each other if we stick at the ~$2k acquisition cost range? Am I overlooking something I should consider?

TIA,
Sid
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2019, 10:57 AM
Colt191145 Colt191145 is offline
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The CZ TSO is highly regarded by many forum members here.

I think I need one.
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  #3  
Old 02-24-2019, 11:08 AM
Kilrb Kilrb is offline
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TSO is a great gun out of the box. I had a SP 01 and a 75B built by CGW and they made a big difference in the way both of them shot.
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  #4  
Old 02-24-2019, 12:29 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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TSO comes with something like 2.0-2.5 trigger out of the box; we've enough owners here to give the exact numbers, but it is not a carry trigger.
If you're considering Production, TSO is not "legal" for it. Same applies for STI Edge.
If you're considering Limited, 9mm not only puts you in a huge competitive disadvantage, but also prevents you from shooting that division in a manner that it is shot and that makes it so appealing.
You could consider a Shadow 2 that's every bit is as reliable as service guns, will be very competitive in Production, will answer a 9 mm call, and will be a lot safer to carry hammer down. But I dunno why you would carry a gun that's 47 oz empty and very nose heavy. It also requires a manual decocking into DA mode, and in cocked and locked is not too far away from having a trigger too light for carry.

Gen5 G34 is a runaway choice for a do-it-all gun in a 9 mm.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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Last edited by YVK; 02-24-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-24-2019, 01:37 PM
Sid Post Sid Post is offline
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I have a bad shoulder so, I want a soft shooter that is reliable. Modern 9mm rounds closed the gap between them and 40S&W so, 9mm has plenty of "stop-ability" for my needs for everything but feral hogs at distance. The longer sight radius is also good for my aging eyes. In the past, I LTC/CCW'ed a Glock 20 FWIW.

A 3# handgun is a whole lot easier to carry than a 6# rifle that is ~32" long too. I could carry my Desert Eagle 44 Magnum but, holster availability and weight make it too impractical. 9mm is a whole lot cheaper to shoot in volume as well. I would like to have something like a 9x23 or 9x25 Dillion but, they are both way too impractical.

I have a Kahr and G17 for days I need something lightweight and more discreet. Out on my farm, I am most apt to have a 3# mini-sledge on me than my 16 oz Ball Peen hammer.

A 40S&W is a possibility too since it doesn't hurt magazine capacity much and is commonly available. I suspect it would be a better choice if I was going to do any competitions with this pistol purchase. I don't want a 45ACP and don't need another 10mm.
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  #6  
Old 02-24-2019, 01:54 PM
Descartian Descartian is offline
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While I own a bunch of STI’s BUT I’m not terribly familiar TSO. A lot of the competition guys on BrianEnos shoot them but it seems like they’re more of an entry level budget option. You get a lot gun for the money but it’s still on a lower level than a 2011. All the serious guys shoot 2011, there’s just more quality there. It’s kind of like your Glocks, they’re good guns but you can only take the platform so far then you’re still shooting a glock.

The Edge is a fine weapon but there are a lot of other full size STI options out there depending on your budget.
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  #7  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:00 PM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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TSO has a sub 2lb Trigger. Ain’t exactly a gun someone would want to carry. And it’s 46 ounces.
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  #8  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:07 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
While I own a bunch of STI’s BUT I’m not terribly familiar TSO. A lot of the competition guys on BrianEnos shoot them but it seems like they’re more of an entry level budget option. You get a lot gun for the money but it’s still on a lower level than a 2011. All the serious guys shoot 2011, there’s just more quality there. It’s kind of like your Glocks, they’re good guns but you can only take the platform so far then you’re still shooting a glock.

The Edge is a fine weapon but there are a lot of other full size STI options out there depending on your budget.
Are you saying that the TSO is an 'entry-level' gun? For whom? While, I suppose it's possible, I don't think I could disagree more.

For the OP's purposes, if you're really into plastic, then I would say a CZ P-09. Has a hammer & safety, so you can carry 'cocked & locked', like a 1911, capacity out the ying-yang, great Omega trigger, threaded barrel even, and suppressor sights - at a bargain of a price!!!!! For me, it leaves all other plastic in the dust. Worth a look.

Last edited by havanajim; 02-24-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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  #9  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:07 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
While I own a bunch of STI’s BUT I’m not terribly familiar TSO. A lot of the competition guys on BrianEnos shoot them but it seems like they’re more of an entry level budget option. You get a lot gun for the money but it’s still on a lower level than a 2011. All the serious guys shoot 2011, there’s just more quality there. It’s kind of like your Glocks, they’re good guns but you can only take the platform so far then you’re still shooting a glock.
In general, you're right, most start with TSO as an off the shelf, cheaper option to 2011 although I know some very serious guys who prefer it over 2011s. I myself am not a big fan of either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Post View Post

I have a Kahr and G17
Honestly, while everyone understands the theory behind sight radius and its advantage, I have not really found a ton of performance difference between 17 and 34.

Quote:
Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Are you saying that the TSO is an 'entry-level' gun? For whom? While, I suppose it's possible, I don't think I could disagree more.
For competitive shooters that shoot a division where TSO has its biggest sporting application. Limited division is dominated by 2011 and even average competition 2011s cost more than TSO. I presume G24 is really an entry level gun to that division, but TSOs are commonly looked at as 90% solution and 60% price.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3

Last edited by YVK; 02-24-2019 at 02:16 PM.
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  #10  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:27 PM
Descartian Descartian is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Are you saying that the TSO is an 'entry-level' gun? For whom? While, I suppose it's possible, I don't think I could disagree more.
Yes I am saying that. Itís a good gun and a lot gun for the money which makes it a good stater pistol for competition. A glock is the same way. I see a lot of guys starting with glocks, then shoot CZís then one theyíve progressed to a point they upgrade to a 2011. You can only take the glock and CZ to a certain level. Iím not saying theyíre not good guns Iím just saying thereís better options.

I realize almost $2k is a lot for some to spend on a well optioned CZ but thatís the starting price point for a 2011.
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  #11  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:28 PM
Descartian Descartian is offline
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TSOs are commonly looked at as 90% solution and 60% price.
Exactly.
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2019, 04:46 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Admittedly, I'm not an imperial-grand-poobah in any shooting discipline, but I've been known to represent myself fairly well. Having said that, I'm curious to understand the 'level' where a CZ can't keep up with an STI. I'm not saying this to stir the pot, but at 'that level' (whatever that is), it's the shooter, not the gun. I think more folks are accustomed to the 1911 feel than they are to the CZ feel, and perhaps that's driving the higher number of grand-poobah users. As CZ gains in reputation and availability, one may argue that things may change. Full disclosure: while I've never liked the feel of an STI (and I've shot a few), I recognize that they are good pistols, so I admit that. This is not meant as an STI bash, but rather as a CZ defense, as I am convinced that a person with a CZ is at no hardware-based disadvantage in any gun-gaming scenario.

I will say, though, that a CZ to Glock comparison, even if intended as a joke, is indeed a stretch! .
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  #13  
Old 02-24-2019, 05:59 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Admittedly, I'm not an imperial-grand-poobah in any shooting discipline, but I've been known to represent myself fairly well. Having said that, I'm curious to understand the 'level' where a CZ can't keep up with an STI. I'm not saying this to stir the pot, but at 'that level' (whatever that is), it's the shooter, not the gun. I think more folks are accustomed to the 1911 feel than they are to the CZ feel, and perhaps that's driving the higher number of grand-poobah users. As CZ gains in reputation and availability, one may argue that things may change. Full disclosure: while I've never liked the feel of an STI (and I've shot a few), I recognize that they are good pistols, so I admit that. This is not meant as an STI bash, but rather as a CZ defense, as I am convinced that a person with a CZ is at no hardware-based disadvantage in any gun-gaming scenario.

I will say, though, that a CZ to Glock comparison, even if intended as a joke, is indeed a stretch! .
Agree wholeheartedly. At what point does a TSO become no longer competitive?
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  #14  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:19 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
In general, you're right, most start with TSO as an off the shelf, cheaper option to 2011 although I know some very serious guys who prefer it over 2011s. I myself am not a big fan of either.



Honestly, while everyone understands the theory behind sight radius and its advantage, I have not really found a ton of performance difference between 17 and 34.



For competitive shooters that shoot a division where TSO has its biggest sporting application. Limited division is dominated by 2011 and even average competition 2011s cost more than TSO. I presume G24 is really an entry level gun to that division, but TSOs are commonly looked at as 90% solution and 60% price.
The last line. TSOs are awesome, but they will never be a 2011 even if they get really really close. I use a CZ Czechmate but I still will admit that as good as it is an infinity would out perform it for 3x the price.
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  #15  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:26 PM
Sid Post Sid Post is offline
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The Glock grip angle to me is a better fit than a traditional single stack 1911. The Sig E2 grips fit me better than the 'classic' as well. I can shoot them all pretty well with a little refamiliarization. I don't want to be one of the mall ninja couch potatoes in mommies basement so, I try to limit the different styles of handguns I have believing mastering one is better than acquiring many and shooting most of them poorly.

I remember shooting at an outdoor range a long time ago with a 20's something young man and his friend. He had a surplus HK P7 with missing sight inserts, a S&W Sigma 380, a Beretta 92 police trade in (really rough) and, 3 or 4 more similar handguns.

After about 15 minutes of shooting the bench top and dirt in front of the bench along with raising dust in the backstop with a totally clean target except for the staples used to hang it in the target frame, he commented on my target which was shot with a G17 that tore the center out. At the time, the G17 was the ONLY SEMIAUTO PISTOL I OWNED! At that point in time, I had somewhere between 80K and 100K rounds through that pistol which I could shoot without sights and just muscle memory.

While I lack that level of proficiency today, I want to regain what I can while I still have the health to do so. Hence, my desire to recommit to the 'right' pistol, not the cheapest or easiest to acquire. Whether I actually run matches with it is a totally different story. However, I do find 'practical' matches to be good skill builders and I'm not really attracted to the gamesmanship 'space gun' competitions.

It sounds like I might be best served with something along the lines of a CZ TSO in 40S&W. If my skills ever exceed that platform, I bet a custom gunsmith could take it as far as a custom 1911.

Whether I should save up and reach for an STI 2011 or similar derivative is still an open issue.

In the end, I want ONE GUN that I can take with me everywhere. If I ever find myself in a T-shirt, shorts, and a flip flops I can always carry something else. Otherwise, a relatively heavy and larger pistol with appropriate ammunition seems like the best option for my personal situation.

I live in a rural area on property out in the country so, while I can and have walked around with a suppressed rifle slung on my shoulder, it just isn't practical. A handgun, even a big heavy one, is imminently more practical for my lifestyle and my needs.

In terms of LTC/CCW open carry, I treat putting a pistol on like my watch and glasses. I can't predict when or if I will need to know the time but, I have my watch on me when I need it. If I could predict when I would need my handgun, I'd take a rifle with me.

If feral hogs become an issue again when I'm cutting firewood, the G40 will get the nod. Otherwise, something that I can use with aggressive dogs provides a pretty low standard as long as I can hit them with whatever pistol I end up with. A good 9mm or 40S&W should provide all the oomph I need to stop hostilities of the mean dog kind.
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  #16  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:26 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Agree wholeheartedly. At what point does a TSO become no longer competitive?
Top 5 people usually, it's annoying but true. The 2011s simply have faster triggers and a better overall shape.
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  #17  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:46 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Having said that, I'm curious to understand the 'level' where a CZ can't keep up with an STI.
From standpoint of pure shootability, i.e. trigger, recoil, sight tracking, accuracy - no level. Tanfoglio's countepart/clone of TSO was taken to a third place in last year's Limited Nationals, and it is cheaper than TSO, and has worse out of box trigger. It does have better ergos tough. Heck, previous year a Glock 24, heavily modified but Glock nonetheless, won the whole thing, ahead of 2011s, TSOs etc.

Where the TSO gets dinged, and one doesn't have to be a grand poobah, just a good competitor, is some ergos that present issues with handling/running the gun. For example, most strong shooters in games work the slide from the above and ahead of the ejection port. It ain't easy with CZs and their thin slides, and very difficult/next to impossible with TSOs when thumb pedal is attached. The thumb safety position is not good and I've already detailed elsewhere on this site issues that arose from that for a number of shooters. Trigger reach is harder to adjust without making trigger position less natural.
2011 are easier to adjust to shooters with different hand sizes and shapes, between various trigger lengths, thumb and grip safety options, and MSH profiles (various grips are now available for both guns). I'd say that for gamers A class and above the ergos and manipulation ease become as important as shootability. I am a fan of CZ, Shadows have been seeing a lion's share of my shooting in last 2 years, and TSO is readily available to me, and I will not buy one on ergos alone if I decided to shoot the Limited.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3

Last edited by YVK; 02-24-2019 at 06:50 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-24-2019, 07:58 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
.....
Where the TSO gets dinged, and one doesn't have to be a grand poobah, just a good competitor, is some ergos that present issues with handling/running the gun. For example, most strong shooters in games work the slide from the above and ahead of the ejection port. It ain't easy with CZs and their thin slides, and very difficult/next to impossible with TSOs when thumb pedal is attached. The thumb safety position is not good and I've already detailed elsewhere on this site issues that arose from that for a number of shooters. Trigger reach is harder to adjust without making trigger position less natural.
2011 are easier to adjust to shooters with different hand sizes and shapes, between various trigger lengths, thumb and grip safety options, and MSH profiles (various grips are now available for both guns). I'd say that for gamers A class and above the ergos and manipulation ease become as important as shootability. I am a fan of CZ, Shadows have been seeing a lion's share of my shooting in last 2 years, and TSO is readily available to me, and I will not buy one on ergos alone if I decided to shoot the Limited.
Interesting points. It seems that a good number of 'ergo' concerns, thumb safety & trigger reach, for example, are more dependent on the shooters hand size and shape than anything else. In other words, the design may work just right for some, not so for others. (Regarding trigger reach, I'll admit here that I'm one of those who thinks that the pistol grip on ARs is too far forward - hence my use of spacers to move it back to a more comfortable location... so it's all relative!) I hear that the CZ thumb safety shape itself is an issue for some, but now that can be easily rectified with other available models. As for the 'racking over the top' thing, I can see that being an issue for those who do that because, admittedly, CZ slides do have less real estate in that regard. Again, I think it comes down to what people are used to and what they practice with. It's less likely that top level shooters would jump from one design to another without some serious justification (or sponsorship!!!! ), so I imagine that time will tell if there's a drift to another effective design among the "gun game influencers'" of today's day and age.
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  #19  
Old 02-24-2019, 08:27 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
so I imagine that time will tell if there's a drift to another effective design among the "gun game influencers'" of today's day and age.
There will be, IMO. Some of it might be driven by sponsors, as in Coley and Stoeger examples that I've mentioned above. Some of it will be driven by realization that you can get very-very far without $5K Nemesis or Wildcat. I've not noticed that 26,000 Dow has given most of my fellow competitors more buying power so less expensive guns will always have that advantage.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:34 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Interesting points. It seems that a good number of 'ergo' concerns, thumb safety & trigger reach, for example, are more dependent on the shooters hand size and shape than anything else. In other words, the design may work just right for some, not so for others. (Regarding trigger reach, I'll admit here that I'm one of those who thinks that the pistol grip on ARs is too far forward - hence my use of spacers to move it back to a more comfortable location... so it's all relative!) I hear that the CZ thumb safety shape itself is an issue for some, but now that can be easily rectified with other available models. As for the 'racking over the top' thing, I can see that being an issue for those who do that because, admittedly, CZ slides do have less real estate in that regard. Again, I think it comes down to what people are used to and what they practice with. It's less likely that top level shooters would jump from one design to another without some serious justification (or sponsorship!!!! ), so I imagine that time will tell if there's a drift to another effective design among the "gun game influencers'" of today's day and age.
Not in this case. An unloaded start WILL be faster with a 2011 vs a TS simply due to the shape of the gun so the 2011 will ALWAYS be better for someone of a given skill level. I handle my guns dry and practice motions with them like crazy and the absolute fastest guns to handle are 2011s and Glocks with 1911s after that and then CZs.
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  #21  
Old 02-24-2019, 09:59 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Interesting stuff. I'm not top 5.....so I'll be keeping my TSO. LOL!!!!
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  #22  
Old 02-24-2019, 10:14 PM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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I purchased a new cz85db in the used gun case, bought but never shot still in the box. I test fired it, she’s awesome. I went up two sizes stronger on the recoil spring. Lubed the gun with moly. What a big difference in cycling and handling. I’m not a auto person in any way but I love the cz’s.
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  #23  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:36 AM
Sid Post Sid Post is offline
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The CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW ORANGE is an interesting option. It also appears to meet IDPA and IPSC rules pretty well.

CZCustom.com
czub.cz
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  #24  
Old 02-25-2019, 11:04 AM
drdaytona drdaytona is offline
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The CZ 75 SP-01 SHADOW ORANGE is an interesting option. It also appears to meet IDPA and IPSC rules pretty well.

CZCustom.com
czub.cz
The Shadow Orange is a good looking gun. I'd do some reading to compare it to the Shadow 2. It get's confusing at times.

Here is a short discussion on the topic.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/2...e-vs-shadow-2/

I own 2 TSOs, a Czechmate and a Shadow 2 so I would be a bit biased I suspect...
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  #25  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:08 PM
Sid Post Sid Post is offline
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CGW Shadow is another one that adds to the confusion.

Compared to the factory Shadow Orange, how is it different?
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