Who's laughing now ? - Page 3 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-05-2020, 02:53 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,066
Regardless of the "catastrophe", gold and silver have ALWAYS had value, throughout human history. No, they won't help if you're in Pompano at the momentum of the eruption- but neither will food or weapons.

It CAN help you buy what you need, from the forward thinker, who has more than he can use, and can see the eventual return to normalcy.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-05-2020, 03:18 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,431
... and now this message from the past

Johnny Carson on the toilet paper shortage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K9-Lz0SbrA

There was a run on toilet paper during the Arab oil embargo.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:08 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Regardless of the "catastrophe", gold and silver have ALWAYS had value, throughout human history. No, they won't help if you're in Pompano at the momentum of the eruption- but neither will food or weapons.

It CAN help you buy what you need, from the forward thinker, who has more than he can use, and can see the eventual return to normalcy.
The OP boasted of having "a few hundred lbs" of silver. At current prices, that's about $45K worth of silver. But even today....after the worst market downturn of all time, silver is still off 66% from it's all time high, and down 22% over the past few weeks. I would offer that even under a complete and total collapse of the world's financial and currency system, silver is probably the last thing I'll be accepting in a trade for a can of beans.

You want beans....bring ammo..... LOL!!
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:14 PM
CDMCKY CDMCKY is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 74
I didn't collect 2 hundred pounds of silver for "The End of The World",
I have it as an investment for my retirement (if I ever do) and most
of the silver I have I bought when it was below $10, and some when
it was below $6. I expect silver to increase greatly in the coming
months due to the 4+ TRIILION DOLLARS being printed, and when it
gets back up to $20+ I'l sell A LOT of it (at a nice profit).

I sold a few thousand dollars worth (on Ebay) a few weeks ago, when
silver was below $11 - and I got $19 an ounce !!

I only have about 3,000 rounds of ammo for my battle rifles and my
pistols - but I do have some nasty 7.62x51 AP/incendiary rounds,
for "The End of The World"....
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-05-2020, 04:21 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,066
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
The OP boasted of having "a few hundred lbs" of silver. At current prices, that's about $45K worth of silver. But even today....after the worst market downturn of all time, silver is still off 66% from it's all time high, and down 22% over the past few weeks. I would offer that even under a complete and total collapse of the world's financial and currency system, silver is probably the last thing I'll be accepting in a trade for a can of beans.

You want beans....bring ammo..... LOL!!
Metals fluctuate, on the whims of the moment... however, when paper currency has no value, hard coin can still buy something from one who has a surplus and faith in a future.
During WWII, the Deutsche mark was hyper inflated- 10,000,000 DM notes were pocket change... a quality ounce of gold coin could feed you for a few weeks- or convince a Nazi officer to turn a blind eye, that you weren't worth his time....

The "value" of gold or silver changes with the situation of the times, not just current "cash" marks value... like every medium of exchange, its predicated on faith in the current, and future, value of that medium- at that time.

Commodities, in the modern world, fluctuate in value on a daily basis.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-05-2020, 05:45 PM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Del Rio, Texas
Age: 63
Posts: 8,054
A lot of people seem to misunderstand the place precious metals (PMs) have in prepping. They are NOT for buying immediate supplies during or immediately after the event. Maybe a tiny bit, but not the overall program.

Initially PMs are for after things settle down and small markets and communities start to form. This where those old junk silver and small increment gold coins start to come into play. They return to what they have always been. Currency with an agreed upon and intrinsic value. A 90% silver quarter is a known quantity of silver and therefore a measurable device for commerce.

If things right up enough that there is still a functional government and there is a national or state currency then the PMs are something you can exchange for that currency at whatever the new exchange rate becomes. Most likely though most people and even some governing bodies will want to trade in metals. Something with intrinsic, measurable value.

The U.S. and most of the world used to be on a gold, then down to silver standard. At one time you could take say dollar bills marked silver certificates in and actually exchange that paper for silver. Each bill was backed by silver. It's when everyone went to fiat currency that it all started going to hell in a handbasket.
__________________
"I wish I was stupid enough to be optimistic." Unknown

R.I.P. Miss Andi. It was a fine, long run old pup and I miss ya. AIW
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-05-2020, 05:49 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Home of the Infantry
Posts: 4,778
I am pretty lucky we ran out of toilet paper about the same time our Sweet Gum Tree Leaves got to the perfect wiping size. Right now we got all the green wipes we need growing on the trees all around my house. If come winter and no more toilet paper then we are gonna be “ship out of luck”.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-05-2020, 06:56 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hooterville in S.C. Kansas
Posts: 7,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amos Iron Wolf View Post
A lot of people seem to misunderstand the place precious metals (PMs) have in prepping. They are NOT for buying immediate supplies during or immediately after the event. Maybe a tiny bit, but not the overall program.

Initially PMs are for after things settle down and small markets and communities start to form. This where those old junk silver and small increment gold coins start to come into play. They return to what they have always been. Currency with an agreed upon and intrinsic value. A 90% silver quarter is a known quantity of silver and therefore a measurable device for commerce.

If things right up enough that there is still a functional government and there is a national or state currency then the PMs are something you can exchange for that currency at whatever the new exchange rate becomes. Most likely though most people and even some governing bodies will want to trade in metals. Something with intrinsic, measurable value.

The U.S. and most of the world used to be on a gold, then down to silver standard. At one time you could take say dollar bills marked silver certificates in and actually exchange that paper for silver. Each bill was backed by silver. It's when everyone went to fiat currency that it all started going to hell in a handbasket.
True. For one example, at the end of the Civil War, those who still had Gold or Silver had money to pay their taxes and thus keep their homes. Those who'd converted everything to Confederate Dollars were left penniless and lost their properties to the Carpet Baggers.

The "Cash" I have on hand is enough to buy needed items during a temporary suspension of "Normal". This works after things like Hurricanes when stations have power to pump fuel, but the electronics systems are still wrecked and credit cards are useless. And that cash isn't in $100 bills but is instead in $1's, $5's, $10's and "$20's.

The "Bullion" I have is as Amos put it. It's for "After". It's also not the heaviest portion of assets put back.

But I'll tell y'all what folks..... My 5 B's: Beans, Bullets, Bullion, Booze and Butt Wipe have all come in handy and will continue to be assets for one thing or another.

Kinda like the Plumber I called out to fix a root problem in a sewer line.
He did it "After Hours", and commented that the local Liquor Store was out of his favorite Bourbon and that the shelves were pretty thin.

I commented that I had some set back as an "Emergency Supply" and we wound up with me trading him a half gallon jug of Bourbon for the Cleanout which didn't take him long as we have outside access points.

He was happy and I was happy as we both thought it was a good trade.

Not bad for a Sunday Cleanout.

And I'd bet his Sunday evening is a lot more "Laid Back & Mellow". ;-)
__________________
I hope and pray that none may kill me, Nor I kill any, with woundings grim. But if ever any should think to kill me, I pray thee, God, let me kill him first
I leave this rule for others when I'm dead, Be always sure you're right — THEN GO AHEAD! Davy Crockett
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04-05-2020, 06:58 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hooterville in S.C. Kansas
Posts: 7,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Metals fluctuate, on the whims of the moment... however, when paper currency has no value, hard coin can still buy something from one who has a surplus and faith in a future.
During WWII, the Deutsche mark was hyper inflated- 10,000,000 DM notes were pocket change... a quality ounce of gold coin could feed you for a few weeks- or convince a Nazi officer to turn a blind eye, that you weren't worth his time....

The "value" of gold or silver changes with the situation of the times, not just current "cash" marks value... like every medium of exchange, its predicated on faith in the current, and future, value of that medium- at that time.

Commodities, in the modern world, fluctuate in value on a daily basis.

Good points that should be kept in mind.
__________________
I hope and pray that none may kill me, Nor I kill any, with woundings grim. But if ever any should think to kill me, I pray thee, God, let me kill him first
I leave this rule for others when I'm dead, Be always sure you're right — THEN GO AHEAD! Davy Crockett
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04-05-2020, 07:22 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rural VA
Posts: 21,960
My wife and I keep some of both Gold and silver stashed away.

I told her the other day that if things really get tight. Anyone that wants ammo or something else. That is how they will need to pay for it. Or something else that I can use.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 04-05-2020, 07:22 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,066
When currency was backed by metals, the latter was a benchmark, a constant- slightly inflationary, but stable.
They have since changed to a commodity, rather than a benchmark standard.... but will alwan have value.
Cash currency is great- until the faith in the government issues it falters. Trade goods- canned beans, TP, ammunition- have no fixed or intrinsic value. Theyre consumables. There value is time and individually dependent. Most here remember a time when 5.56mm ball-if you could find it- was going for $1 a round....

Commodities fluctuate. The mostly commonly used and variable is probably gasoline. I remembered $0.70/gallon unleaded. I also remember $4/gallon in NC. Its about $1.80 now- exceptionally low. Mid $2s is the current normal...
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 04-05-2020, 11:13 PM
Litespeedaudio Litespeedaudio is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 95
Sounds The Same To Me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thig View Post
No correlation at all, no one's trying to take our toilet paper from us. We created that shortage by hoarding. I am as 2A, conservative as anyone but I am buying 2000 rolls of toilet paper.
When someone says “No one needs”. It sounds like a direct correlation to me. At the very least you are blaming me for the TP shortage. I did not go to the store and buy 2000 rolls at one time leaving nothing on the shelf for the next person. That would be selfish and greedy.

People that plan ahead are not a burden on society. No need to blame them for for shortages of TP, Firearms or Ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:49 AM
Boston Bill Boston Bill is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ma
Posts: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdellis49 View Post
Seriously? Things will need to get MUCH worse before I see an impact. Went grocery shopping for the first time in two weeks yesterday. Picked up a nice ham for Easter, .99 a pound, bread, flour, chips, coffee and yes, wait for it toilet paper! Really the shelves looked to getting back to normal. No Lysol or hand sanitizer but probably will be there when I go back in two more weeks. I am happy for you that you feel your prepping is paying off. But we are a long way from MRE's or dehydrated dinners
Still no toilet paper in my area.
__________________
Happy Shooting. Boston Bill.
Less Democrats, Less Republicans. More Constitution!
Life member NRA and Gun Owners Action League.
“A man's rights rest in three boxes; the ballot box, jury box, and the cartridge box,”– Frederick Douglass
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 04-06-2020, 01:36 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: In the pines
Age: 60
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The question is:

At what point does "prepping" become "hoarding"?

I'd suggest that what one does prior to a shortage is one's own business. Trying to stock up as or after a an event begins is another matter....
Quote:
Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Since the dawn of time, there's been one weak link in every, single human endeavor...... the human!!!! People, by and large, can be a very disappointing lot. Times like these highlight that fact, from all sides of the equation. You have those who live in their imaginary bubble, going about lost in the fog, and subsequently panic at the slightest provocation because they've been, well, lost in the fog for so long. Then there's the other side: the self-serving, self-righteous, damn-everyone-else, I'm-in-it-for-me types. In the middle are those (few) who take 'caring for each other' seriously, and spare what they can when those truly needy require a hand.

If you're sitting atop your bunker, with its hoard of ammo, food, toilet paper, toothpicks, etc., great, good for you. If you're living day to day, oblivious to what goes on around you, then you may wish to rethink your position. The bottom line is that no one will survive a true, extreme survival scenario (of the 'prep for' type) alone - at least not for very long. You're better off thinking 'bigger picture' and caring a bit more about either your situation or your fellow man - who might just be the one that saves your butt one day down the road.
+1911 These two post both hit the nail on the head.
__________________
I am a proud to be a member of the NRA, GOA, FPC and The 2nd Amendment Foundation
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 04-06-2020, 02:16 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMCKY View Post
I didn't collect 2 hundred pounds of silver for "The End of The World",
I have it as an investment for my retirement (if I ever do) and most
of the silver I have I bought when it was below $10, and some when
it was below $6. I expect silver to increase greatly in the coming
months due to the 4+ TRIILION DOLLARS being printed, and when it
gets back up to $20+ I'l sell A LOT of it (at a nice profit).

I sold a few thousand dollars worth (on Ebay) a few weeks ago, when
silver was below $11 - and I got $19 an ounce !!
Selling silver on eBay isn't exactly a sound retirement strategy, but I wish you luck.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 04-06-2020, 04:52 PM
mdellis49 mdellis49 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Sierra Nevada California
Posts: 95
The stores in my area have started to ration customers on hard to find items like TP as a result there seems to be products available. Picked up a package of 12 rolls and some alcohol(hand sanitizer) and paper towels this morning at Rite Aid. Products are kept behind the counter. Grocery store was limiting customers to one dozen eggs. Unfortunate that folks just don't buy what they need and that the stores need to take these steps.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 04-06-2020, 05:02 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rocky mountain area
Posts: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMCKY View Post
The short answer is - I AM.

I've been mocked and accused of being "paranoid", by many I know
for keeping 6+ months of provisions; food, water weapons, and other
provisions - just in case of (place SHTF disaster here).

Now, they're apologizing and wishing they had been more "forward -
looking", and asking me to sell them toilet paper. I have 50 rolls, and
I'm keeping them.

I have years of "just in case" money, no debt, my job is secure, and
(really) this "Covid-19 apocalypse" has no effect on me at all.

I knew one day my "prepping" would pay off, and that day is here.

I believe this will greatly change the attitudes of many in America
about "being prepared" and I (also) have a few hundred pounds of
silver, which, with the affect of the 4+ trillion $ "stimulus" should
be raising the value of silver (probably) to the sky, due to the lower
value of The Dollar...
What a truly strange post.......
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 04-06-2020, 05:40 PM
JT... JT... is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barefootdog View Post
Do you guys really crap so much that you need 100 rolls of toilet paper?
Lol, just goes to show how full of s—- t they are. Lol
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 04-06-2020, 08:17 PM
CDMCKY CDMCKY is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Selling silver on eBay isn't exactly a sound retirement strategy, but I wish you luck.
You're ASSUMING that my silver is the ONLY part of my
retirement plan (that shows the thin properties of your
brain) AND silver (as a part of a retirement plan) is an
EXCELLENT "strategy"....
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 04-06-2020, 09:33 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMCKY View Post
You're ASSUMING that my silver is the ONLY part of my
retirement plan (that shows the thin properties of your
brain) AND silver (as a part of a retirement plan) is an
EXCELLENT "strategy"....
Again..... perhaps you missed it. I wish you luck.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 04-06-2020, 10:05 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Texas
Posts: 11,569
When someone believes they're so much smarter than everyone else and that those others are to be laughed at, and described as thin properties of the brain, there's only so much more to be said.... even if that person has all the silver and other material riches in the world, is that -- combined with laughing at others -- really what a good life is all about?
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member

"Freedom is only a temporary thing unless it is backed by the blunt capability and willingness to fight back against evil with sufficient arms." -- Myself

Last edited by chrysanthemum; 04-06-2020 at 10:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 04-07-2020, 12:25 AM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Hooterville in S.C. Kansas
Posts: 7,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
The OP boasted of having "a few hundred lbs" of silver. At current prices, that's about $45K worth of silver. But even today....after the worst market downturn of all time, silver is still off 66% from it's all time high, and down 22% over the past few weeks. I would offer that even under a complete and total collapse of the world's financial and currency system, silver is probably the last thing I'll be accepting in a trade for a can of beans.

You want beans....bring ammo..... LOL!!
Just a small correction.

Today, silver is $15.16 per toz. In June of 1979 it was $50.35 per toz.

So it's down 70%.

I watched it at $50.35 and saw it drop until it reached $3.88 per toz.

Most of what I have saved back averages to $4.50 per toz.

When it got back up to $45.83 in 2011, I had an old time customer who wanted to know if I thought it'd go higher.

I told him that as far as I was concerned, anytime Silver was higher than $11 - $17 per toz., it was a time to Sell, Sell, Sell.

He had 5,000 toz he wanted to see hit $50. Doesn't pay to get greedy.

But then I also know a guy who sent three "Contracts" of Silver down to Mexico to be refined down to .999+ when it was nearing $40 per toz and he didn't lock in the price. The Processor had a "Strike" and by the time they'd reopened, his three "Contracts" had dropped to $23 per troy oz. for a loss of $17 per toz.

A "Contract" was 50,000. So 150,000 x 17 per toz = $2.55 Million.

Doesn't pay to be greedy.

Oh, and just to add for those not familiar with Gold and Silver and Troy Measurements compared to "Average" or "Aver Du Pois" Measurement.

16 oz to 1 average pound.

12 toz to 1 troy pound.

14.58 toz. = 1 16 oz. average pound.

An average oz is .911 of a troy ounce.

A troy ounce = 31.1 grams.

So if you have a 1 troy ounce silver medallion, it should weigh right at 480 grains on your scales.

The "Standard" for Gold and Silver for purity is 99.999+ % fine grade silver or gold. For some applications like Aerospace, it is 99.9999+% purity.
Commonly referred to as Three 9's or Four 9's and abbreviated with .999+ or .9999+

If your silver and gold isn't "Certified" with a commonly accepted Hallmark for purity of .999+ or .9999+, then it's difficult to sell as the purity and weights are suspect.

Englehardt Silver for one example in the late 1970's early 1980's took a real hit as there were crooks who'd taken 100 toz. bars, sliced them open lengthwise with a bandsaw, scooped/milled out silver and replaced it with the correct weight of lead, then soldered the two halves back together and put mill marks on the sides to imitate a "Pure" bar. It bankrupted Englehardt.

As late as 2011 I had people trying to sell 100 toz. Englehardt Bars, only to find that up to 60% of the silver had been adulterated.

IF you're going to buy Gold or Silver Bullion, then Minted Gold $50, $20, $10 and $5 and Minted Silver $1 coins are a good bet for being unadulterated.

If you're buying Gold or Silver "Bullion" then 1 troy oz or smaller are your best bet to avoid them being adulterated.

Most Legitimate Minting Operations have too much in their dies to mint adulterated coins. If the medallions are blurred or have irregular edges, off center, etc. They're highly suspect.
__________________
I hope and pray that none may kill me, Nor I kill any, with woundings grim. But if ever any should think to kill me, I pray thee, God, let me kill him first
I leave this rule for others when I'm dead, Be always sure you're right — THEN GO AHEAD! Davy Crockett

Last edited by NonHyphenAmerican; 04-08-2020 at 12:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 04-08-2020, 05:14 PM
markmmg markmmg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 87
This post reminds me, I need to stop at the grocery store on the way home, because THEY ARE STILL OPEN!.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04-08-2020, 05:30 PM
Markbo Markbo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 481
I go to the grocery store about twice a week. Once for weeks worth - we have 2 weeks worth at the house - and invariably for some small thing; bread, milk, whatever. Have toilet paper, hand sanitizer and everything else we need. This whole thing is more media induced panic than true catastrophe. I was at Wal-Mart a few days ago. Had only 5 packages of toilet paper on the shelf. I took one. Because it was just the right thing to do.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 04-08-2020, 05:33 PM
OlHippy OlHippy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Arizona
Posts: 176
Most if not all those Mormon type folks actually stock a years worth of food and supplies. They have a ton of stuff. A whole freeking years worth. Found this out from a mormon I know. Talk about prepping.......
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved