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  #176  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:25 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradd D View Post
The mythos of the 45 ACP that some cling to is fascinating.
I don't know any serious shooters who cling to much of anything. Many of us know exactly what .45 ACP is and are neither over-impressed nor under-impressed with what it is. It is what it is, and what it is, is pretty good.

I shoot .45 ACP and 9mm Luger pretty much the same. You can look at my Steel Challenge record in the link in my signature. The Limited scores are with a Glock and 9mm and the Single Stack scores are with a 1911 and .45 ACP. My aggregate scores are almost exactly the same, within a few seconds.

I kind of happen to like a fat, heavy bullet that makes a big hole. It's not a death ray, it's not magic. But it's pretty good.
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  #177  
Old 07-30-2019, 07:26 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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Bill Drill is a better equivalent of a defensive shooting than putting one round each on five steel plates where run's time is mostly spent on transitions. Is your BD the same with 9 as with a 45?
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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  #178  
Old 07-30-2019, 07:35 PM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Originally Posted by Xhair View Post
I felt that my original response was factually based, although I freely acknowledged that they all have their limitations whatever method(s) of evaluation is used to determine effectiveness. It for me is not a matter of “wanting to believe” for a belief is something for which there is no proof. On the other hand, reaching a decision based on an analysis of the best available data is to reach a logical conclusion. While I thought that I had offered enough evidence, references, to support this, at the risk of being redundant, I will expand on this a bit more.

However, before I go any further, I want to make several points clear. I am not an expert and I do not profess to be. What I am is someone who, throughout my entire professional life has relied on available data to arrive at conclusions. The conclusions I have arrived at for this topic I view as well founded and leave me comfortable in my decision. It is not my intent or desire to persuade anyone one way or other on what may be the best choice. To the contrary, as I tried to point out earlier, I do not believe there is a best choice or one size that fits all. What I will do in the following is to highlight what I think are germane points in arriving at my conclusion.

The 9mm is used by the major armies and police forces throughout the world as the standard side arm. Is this an accident or are they just ignorant? I do not see this as being the case for they are truly the experts who have the data and experience to arrive at this conclusion. I understand that there are other factors that influence the militaries’ decision beside solely stopping power. But this country for one professes to be the best armed and prepared. To carry this a bit further, if there is a law enforcement agency any where with more knowledge and expertise on this subject than the FBI, I am unaware of them. In my analysis of the data below, it certainly indicates that this was not an uneducated decision.

The following data comes from my files dating back to 12/2002, and I do not know if there were any updates to it. I view it as merely a data point because the information itself has its natural limitations and it is outdated. By outdated, I mean that it does not include the advancement in ammunition in recent years.

Marshall & Sanow Stopping Power Stats: While I would like to show the data in its entirety here, I do not know if there are any copyright issues. Therefore, I will present some of the data having acknowledged its source.


Best Performance 45 acp Shootings 71 Success 94%
2nd Best Performance 45 acp Shootings 14 Success 93%
FMJ 45 acp Shootings 469 Success 64%
Weight Mean Average All 45 acp Shootings 1021 Success 76%

Best Performance 9mm Shootings 32 Success 91%
2nd Best Performance 9mm Shootings 109 Success 90%
FMJ 9mm Shootings 265 Success 63%
Weight Mean Average All 9mm Shootings 2387 Success 79%

Given the limitations that I have noted and not attempting to cherry pick the data, leads to my conclusion that the greatest variation in performance is within calibers and not between them. Contrary to the assertion that “The 9MM was always about half as effective as the .45ACP in hardball form.” is a far cry from the 1% in the above data. Furthermore, looking back at the data, this certainly seems to indicate the military’s move to 9mm has validity.

Before delving into the next source of data, there have been cautions/warnings about making decisions based on bad data. When arguments are made without supporting facts but rather solely on the basis of “we know”, condescending name calling, and inference that something is fact because everyone knows it, I view this very skeptically. Furthermore, this type of argument, again, totally disregards the advances in modern defensive ammunition based on old conventional wisdom rather than current facts.

I would never advocate walking into a store and selecting ammunition based on only weight and velocity. This does not tell anything about how this or that particular ammunition will perform. This is true of all calibers across the board with the exception of the FMJ whose basic performance has been unchanged. The link below on ballistic tests clearly shows this using real guns representative of what are carried by many today (not test barrels), real average 5 shot velocity, bullet expansion, and penetration. Let’s take the “silly 147 grain loads” for instance which is an excellent case in point. The data contained in this report lists 3 different loads with significant difference in performance.These range from 15.2” to 19.2” in penetration, 0.38” to 0.61” in expansion, and from 962 fps to 1008 fps in velocity. It is important to note that this data was generated using a S&W M&P9C with a 3.5” barrel. I certainly would not hesitate to carry a “silly 147 grain” load that produces a 5 shot average of 19.2” in penetration and 0.60” of expansion at 1008 fps out of a 3.5” barrel. Please note that I am not advocating this is the best 9mm load to carry, but rather an example of differences in loads.

Two final points I would like to make before proceeding further, I am not aware of any absolutely definitive data available on this subject. First is that the best measure we have is data showing relative performance. If there is better current data that is statistically valid available, please let me know for I certainly would like to see it. The second point to consider is ammunition performance for civilians in virtually all cases is different than LEO, hence the FBI penetration standard. We in all probability, unlike LEO and military, are not going to be shooting through barriers, taking quartering shots, etc.

Another source of data is the FBI standard protocol using ballistic gel. As in my previous response, a link to extensive test data was provided. But before we go there, here is another point to ponder: https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/w...ics-gel-works/ This link provides an insight as to how modern ammunition has progressed and is not solely dependent on velocity. Here again is the link to the data: https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...tic-tests/#9mm Not only does this include a detailed analysis of how the ammunition performed, but it also includes the gun and barrel length that were used in the test.

What I would like to leave you with is what I consider several valid points that should be critically examined:

Times change and so should outdated beliefs. Dated paradigms that are presented as conventional wisdom should be closely examined for validity. Can current imperial data be presented to support the position? To use 85 year old anecdotes as a the basis for current caliber selection discounts the advances that have been made in ammunition, and that at that time another calibers may have worked equally as well.

Performance of different ammo within a caliber is more significant than top performing ammo between calibers. This is clearly evident by ballistic testing of ammo designed to perform in todays handguns with shorter barrels and at slower velocities.

Given the greatly increased parity of modern defensive ammunition between calibers, the primary concern must always be stopping the threat. To my knowledge the recommended response is to shoot until the threat is neutralized. If one shot works great, but that should not be the expectation.

Power alone is not synonymous with stopping power in defensive handgun ammunition. It does not take into consideration modern bullet performance nor over penetration. Additionally, it can impede rapid and accurate follow-up shots.

There is no such thing as a magic bullet in any given caliber. Rapid and accurate shot placement is paramount.

Current data should be reexamined periodically to determine if there is a valid case for change. The Marshall & Sanow Stopping Power Stats are a great, despite their own inherent flaws, and to my knowledge have not be updated to contain current information. And while ballistic gelatin is not intended to represent every real life conditions, it is a standardized, controlled, and repeatable measure of relative performance that is the current testing standard recognized throughout the industry by the professionals.

In conclusion, I urge everyone to arrive at what the best decision is for themselves based upon the best available current data for ammo selection, not speculation or unsubstantiated and outdated opinions. Regardless of what your caliber selection is, look for best ammo in class, because there is a wide variation in performance.
/thread

(At least as far as its caliber-war component is concerned.)
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  #179  
Old 08-02-2019, 06:22 PM
motorsporting motorsporting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDMCKY View Post
I've been carrying (.45 acp/10mm/.45 super) concealed 1911's
for decades, and I thought I would never change, but I have.

I shot a friend's Springfield XDM compact 9mm, and found that
I shoot it better, faster and more consistently than my 1911's,
and with HST 147 gr +P JHP's there's plenty of SD power, and
it carries better too, (and 13+1).

I feel a little like a "traitor", but I still own 14 nice 1911's which
I have no intention of parting with, but man, what the hell.
Been there, and done that. Still not sure I like the change ...
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  #180  
Old 08-05-2019, 12:17 AM
Pandaz3 Pandaz3 is offline
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Always learning, I have never tried any of my XD sub compacts in the pocket. Going to order a holster for 3.0" and another for 3.3"
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  #181  
Old 08-07-2019, 07:31 PM
hawkeye52 hawkeye52 is offline
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I've got a Springfield 1911 range Officer Champion with the 4" barrel in .45 and a Sig P220 carry in .45. I like both but feel safer with the Sig since it has the decocking lever and carry with one in the chamber and 8 in the clip
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  #182  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:25 PM
1911crazy 1911crazy is offline
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After these past senseless shootings in public places I’ll bet the ones who put there 1911’s away are wiping them down to carry again. I’m thinking about it, im faster with magazines than speedloaders. I’d rather carry a pistol in 45acp.
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  #183  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:47 PM
daddy13 daddy13 is offline
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Honestly. I think its going to come down to how well and accurately you can place shots. Ive heard that many "professionals" are now practicing on headshots and quick debilitating shots such as to the hip joints due to the amount of people now wearing body armor. If this were true (and im not saying it is) then it would only make sense to use what you are most proficient with using as a minimum a 9mm.

With that being said. Ive gone to my EDC of a glock 43 back to my Glock 19 w/a spare mag using speer GD 124gr +p or winchester rangers 124gr +p. I shoot both very well but feel better with the longer range accuracy of the 19 while still affording the best concealment for my body type and environment in South Florida... I have carried my .45's when weather permits an extra garment to throw over to help conceal My Springfield Mil Spec and now my Combat Commander and even though theyre heavy as hell, Im very very accurate with them... just my 2 cents...
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  #184  
Old 08-09-2019, 08:04 PM
CDMCKY CDMCKY is offline
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I went to my local Walmart Super Center last weekend (after the shooting)
and it did feel like people were a little on edge, or maybe it was just me
feeling/being more alert than usual while shopping.

I chose to carry (IWB) my Kimber TLE/RL stainless 1911, which I converted
to fire .45 Super. I had 8+1 in the gun and 2 extra 8 round mags, so I felt
nicely armed. I (normally) would have been carrying my Kimber stainless
Compact (4" barrel / Officer size frame) but I thought it better to pack a
little more "heat" that day....


.......................

.....................Kimber TLE/RL .45 Super with night sights and
..................Underwood 185 Gr. XTP/JHP .45 Super (1300/695)

Last edited by CDMCKY; 08-09-2019 at 08:09 PM.
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  #185  
Old 08-11-2019, 12:52 AM
azuredragon azuredragon is offline
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call me crazy but I've been thinking of going from 1911 to a Glock 21 for ccw
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  #186  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:12 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azuredragon View Post
call me crazy but I've been thinking of going from 1911 to a Glock 21 for ccw
When you goto Walmart, check the homewares section. They should have a selection of G21s alongside the other Tupperware.

More is not better, it's just more of the same.
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  #187  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:09 AM
jr24 jr24 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azuredragon View Post
call me crazy but I've been thinking of going from 1911 to a Glock 21 for ccw
Did that for a while, my 21 is a phenomenal shooter and I generally shoot it just as well as any of my 1911s, better, in fact, at longer range for whatever reason.

But compared to a 1911 it is a bear to actually conceal well, so bulky and blocky, and the spare mags are even harder than the gun to conceal well, IMO.
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  #188  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:37 AM
azuredragon azuredragon is offline
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I'm hoping it doesn't pose too much of a problem to conceal. I carry a Model 64 with a 4" barrel everyday so the transition won't be as extreme as say a J-Frame everyday to the glock 21
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  #189  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:41 PM
CDMCKY CDMCKY is offline
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OK, so I'm trying another pistol in place of my Colt 3" 1911
Defender. It's the CZ 75 Compact, and it's pretty good. It's a
true, hammer fired DA/SA and it has the smoothest damn DA
trigger I've ever shot in a DA pistol. Also, it is 14+1 and the
only difference (size) is the barrel is 1/2" longer-not an issue
for me with my deep conceal, crotch carry - accuracy is great.

I picked up this 99% condition CZ with the box, papers, 2-14
round mags, manual, cleaning rod for only $450, and I think
like this could be a permanent change. The 14+1 rounds of
9mm HST 147 gr +P with a spare 14 round mag is very good,
and it carries as good as my Colt Defender. It's a few ounces
heavier, but that isn't noticed with my custom built (by me)
deep conceal holster.

Here's a side by side comparison.



Last edited by CDMCKY; 08-22-2019 at 07:53 PM.
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  #190  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:49 PM
YVK YVK is offline
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I would recommend using a normal font and color.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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  #191  
Old 08-23-2019, 06:34 AM
CDMCKY CDMCKY is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
I would recommend using a normal font and color.
Because ?
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  #192  
Old 08-23-2019, 08:38 AM
YVK YVK is offline
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I actually studied a subject of visual presentation of information a little. Still have some of Tufte's books somewhere, a good read. If you want people to read and see what you've to say, you might want to put it in the form that facilitates that. Yours doesn't.
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Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
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  #193  
Old 08-23-2019, 12:23 PM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Originally Posted by YVK View Post
I actually studied a subject of visual presentation of information a little. Still have some of Tufte's books somewhere, a good read. If you want people to read and see what you've to say, you might want to put it in the form that facilitates that. Yours doesn't.
Yes, I find that text very unpleasant to the eyes. If I had to read something in that format for any significant length of time, I'd end up with a headache. I just skip right over posts formatted in that fashion.
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  #194  
Old 08-24-2019, 09:26 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colt45acp";12895398][QUOTE=GunBugBit;12852660]The FBI Miami-Dade shootout prompted a cartridge solution to a training and preparedness problem (that's my take when I read accounts of the incident). Same thing might have happened with .45 ACP or 10mm in play.

New recruits are going to be, or already are, a lot of snowflakes, [B][SIZE="5
so, maybe we need a fresh round of wars to harden the next generation or two[/SIZE][/B].
Really? [/QUOTE]

No not really. Was definitely being facetious. I’m as ticked off as anyone about the obscene amount of blood and money wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Last edited by GunBugBit; 08-24-2019 at 09:34 PM.
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  #195  
Old 08-24-2019, 09:32 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
I compete with and carry Glocks. I also compete with 1911s and have one that is designated as my carry 1911 though I haven't carried it for a while. I have put forth the time and energy to become as proficient as I can be with both types of gun, and continue working hard on my skills.

Soon I'll get my first 2011. I'll never carry one of those, nor would most people.
Why not? Depending on the frame you pick it’s the same size as a G19 or 17 with less rake to the grip an a thinner slide area.
Any 2011 I buy will be full size with a big mag well on it, designated for USPSA. Not a carry gun.
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  #196  
Old 08-25-2019, 04:29 AM
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2011 are fine as far as grip, you would have to try one because most of what is said about them (vs 1911 grip) is not correct. Also, if you are going STI, the poly-grip add's value absorbing recoil.

The main issue with carrying a 2011 is the quality of the magazines. There vary a bit in quality (from good to crap) and do require more often tuning than a 1911 mag. If you learn how to tune them as many do they carry-fine. Many people carry them.
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