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  #1  
Old 08-25-2015, 04:42 PM
july19 july19 is offline
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What makes a 1911?

I've read posts on this forum, and others, that a Sig, of some model, is not to be considered a 1911. I must point out that I don't own a Sig but can't help but wonder what the criteria are ( or, conversely, aren't ) for a pistol to be considered a 1911.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:47 PM
rbert0005 rbert0005 is offline
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Some people will say that if it ain't a Colt it ain't a 1911

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Old 08-25-2015, 05:06 PM
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What is an AK? When a gun design has been extensively copied for decades, and with many companies making modified versions of the design there's really no way to define it. I just know what a 1911 is supposed to look like:



If it doesn't resemble the two above and doesn't have a fair number of interchangeable parts with them it ain't a 1911 in my book.
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  #4  
Old 08-25-2015, 05:08 PM
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Wilsonedbrown Wilsonedbrown is offline
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The reason many consider a Sig not to be a 1911 is it doesn't conform to the standards most others do.. Such as the external extractor and slide profile.. The sig non traditional models use different holsters then a standard 1911. The Sig looks like they mixed a P220 with a 1911 and got the Sig 1911..

Last edited by Wilsonedbrown; 08-25-2015 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:09 PM
ortho32 ortho32 is offline
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Look at the trigger...
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:28 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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At a really precise definitional level, people will have different beliefs as to what constitutes a 1911.

A few people are absolute purists. To them, if it's not a WWI era "1911", then it's not a 1911.

At the other end of the spectrum are people who will call something like the new Browning .380 "scaled-down" firearm (which otherwise looks like a 1911) a real 1911.

In between the extremes, you find many other perceptions.

FWIW, if a firearm is built with all of the internal components set forth in JMB's patent descriptions and diagrams, the same operating controls, and if the external dimensions are the same, then it is a "1911" to me, albeit not an original WWI 1911. Also, just my thoughts, the changing of sights, beavertails, magazine wells, ambi-safeties, and even flanged barrels, compensated barrels, barrel lengths, etc., do not change what would otherwise be a 1911 per my thinking ... in other words, it is still a 1911, although again, not an original WWI era 1911.

Other opinions and definitions are, of course, equally deserving of respect. We'll each have our own ideas on these matters.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:31 PM
evets5321 evets5321 is offline
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The design by Moses Browning is what comes to mind for me when I think of 1911
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:37 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evets5321 View Post
The design by Moses Browning is what comes to mind for me when I think of 1911
Exactly. It is the JMB design, the patents, and whether a given gun very closely matches. Probably no modern 1911 will exactly match, if one considers thumb safeties, grip safeties, sights, hammer style, etc.; but the basic dimensions, the operating components, the controls -- everything that makes the gun fire -- should be pretty darn close to what JMB designed.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:41 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evets5321 View Post
The design by Moses Browning is what comes to mind for me when I think of 1911
Pretty much my thoughts on this.
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  #10  
Old 08-25-2015, 06:04 PM
oldag oldag is offline
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I am not worried by an external extractor or slightly different slide top configuration.

There are some gosh-awful looking pistols parading as 1911's with weird FCS's or strange slide slab configurations. Just because they don't have an external extractor, some would say those are still 1911's. They look like abominations to me.

On the other hand, I don't consider a 9 mm to be a 1911.

Personal taste, OP. Don't give it any thought. Be satisfied with what is a 1911 to you.
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:05 PM
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Well, I definitely know this isn't:

Click image for larger version

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The bluing is all wrong!

Rick
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  #12  
Old 08-25-2015, 06:40 PM
Peacemkr40 Peacemkr40 is offline
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If you can use a 1911 armorers manual to completely work on your firearm, I'd say it's most likely a 1911. Keep in mind, some people dont even consider a colt series 80 to be a true 1911. I say let those folks pound sand and I'll stick with my 1911's.
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:44 PM
Rick_A Rick_A is offline
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Sig, like other semi custom makers, take some liberties on the design. Beyond the modern ramp and throat, controls, trigger, beavertail grip safety, a firing pin block, etc. They also use their own slide contour and an external extractor. They work and folks tend to like them.

For the purists, is a new term in order? Modern Browning Pistol?

Silly me, I lump them all together. Surplus is surplus. Everything else is still a 1911 in my book.
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  #14  
Old 08-25-2015, 08:50 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by july19 View Post
I've read posts on this forum, and others, that a Sig, of some model, is not to be considered a 1911.
I think you have to be clear what SIG you are talking about.

I consider a SIG 1911, even with it's weird slide and external extractor, a 1911, though I'm sure some don't consider it a 1911 due to those features. I disagree with those folks.

Of course you may get somebody to say a SIG P210 is a 1911 since it has a single action, straight pull trigger. That's wrong, a P210 is not a 1911.

You also may hear somebody say a SIG P220 is a 1911 since it shoots the .45 Auto round. That's also wrong. The P220 is not a 1911.
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  #15  
Old 08-25-2015, 08:55 PM
brzusa.1911 brzusa.1911 is offline
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Favorite answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
At a really precise definitional level, people will have different beliefs as to what constitutes a 1911.

A few people are absolute purists. To them, if it's not a WWI era "1911", then it's not a 1911.

At the other end of the spectrum are people who will call something like the new Browning .380 "scaled-down" firearm (which otherwise looks like a 1911) a real 1911.

In between the extremes, you find many other perceptions.

FWIW, if a firearm is built with all of the internal components set forth in JMB's patent descriptions and diagrams, the same operating controls, and if the external dimensions are the same, then it is a "1911" to me, albeit not an original WWI 1911. Also, just my thoughts, the changing of sights, beavertails, magazine wells, ambi-safeties, and even flanged barrels, compensated barrels, barrel lengths, etc., do not change what would otherwise be a 1911 per my thinking ... in other words, it is still a 1911, although again, not an original WWI era 1911.

Other opinions and definitions are, of course, equally deserving of respect. We'll each have our own ideas on these matters.
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  #16  
Old 08-25-2015, 09:14 PM
Jason D Jason D is offline
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A true 1911 would have to be made by Colt or one of the other contractors. A true 1911A1 would be the same.

The only gun made today that can be remotely called a 1911, would be made by Colt itself. They are the original maker, and are still making them. You might be able to lump Remington in there as well, as they were an original WWI maker under the Remington UMC banner.

Everything else on the market is a 1911 or 1911A1 type.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:26 PM
havanajim havanajim is online now
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Many years ago, I knew this old timer named Beauchamp Rubinaux - ran a small gun shop down in Plaquemines Parrish, down round Port Sulphur, if I recall. Man knew everything there was to know about guns, particularly the 1911. Anyway, he made a little money in the gun trade, but that was just for fun. His primary profession was that of a voodoo witch doctor. That's where the cash was because there was no shortage of IDPA guys wanting to put hexes on USPSA guys and vice-versa. Not to mention all the polymer gun guys looking to curse the steel-pistol shooters, and the steel pistol shooters wanting to jinx the revolver folks, etc., etc Many, many nights were spent casting spells on MIM parts too, paid for by the forged parts fans. Needless to say, he was a popular dude. Anyway, one time he got so miffed at a couple of guys arguing in the store about what constituted a 'true' 1911, that he decided to settle it once and for all. After closing, a few folks were invited to a special meeting. A couple of us were old shooting pals, then there were two of his witch doctor apprentices, a bartender and a nurse. I recall there was a dude in the corner playing an accordion, but he never said a word, and I never inquired. The true purpose of the meeting was to hold a seance, and the guest of honor would be none other than JMB himself. I had my doubts it would work, of course. I mean, Elvis, sure. He conjured him up a few times, but Elvis is an attention hog, so that's no challenge. JMB, on the other hand, that was a serious dude. I mean, look at his pictures, he never smiled. Anyway, about 2 hours and multiple sazeracs in, the old man appeared. Didn't say a word for about 5 minutes, just glared at us. Seems he was a bit ticked cause we pulled him out a chess game with Georg Luger. He finally warmed up though when Beauchamp pulled out his granddad's 1912 vintage pistol he'd used in the punitive expedition down south in '17. That reassured him that he was among friends, I guess. Except, he kept glancing over at the dude in the corner with the accordion, but he never asked either.

Anyway, Beauchamp finally got around to telling him why we'd conjured him up. He asked him to define a 'true' 1911? He also asked for his thoughts on all the different variations of his pistol being made today. Did he care that Sig was making a 'so-called 1911'? What about Para's LDA abomination? What about front cocking serrations and rails; was he offended? Turns out, no. The old man was actually flattered. You see, he wasn't finished with the design when he keeled over, so he considers them all 1911s. He had planned to add an external extractor all along. He regretted not coming up with the rail idea, though, but then again, there were no tactical flashlight in the 19-teens, so he got over that fairly quickly. As for extended beavertails, that was on his drawing board too. The most shocking thing he said was that he was getting tired of FN, and had the old ticker not quit when it did, his next stop was at S&W. So had things gone down differently, you could say the E-Series would be as close to his true design vision as any 1911 gets. So, that's that. Oh, he did also share with us that loves to mess around with Gaston, moving things around in the old guy's mansion when he's not looking. Matter of fact, he's the one that drew the little trigger lever 'thingy' in the design drawing as a joke, but Gaston ran with it. It was actually Luger's idea of a practical joke. Austrians, go figure.

So you see, if the old man himself doesn't care, neither should we. Just enjoy the myriad models and have fun shooting them. As for Beauchamp, he eventually closed the store and moved to Poughkeepsie. Opened up an accordion shop, I heard.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:37 PM
TRfromMT TRfromMT is offline
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^^^^ havanajim, for the win.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:51 PM
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^^^^ havanajim, for the win.
True story, sho-nuff. Now, back to my accordion.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:45 PM
Cannibul Cannibul is offline
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The Smith and Wesson 1911 pistols have an external extractor also. They work just fine in my experience.

Once I had my very early Sig GSR worked on at the factory it too works. Thing shoots like a laser and it's either the 125th or 126th 1911 Sig built.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
A true 1911 would have to be made by Colt or one of the other contractors. A true 1911A1 would be the same.

The only gun made today that can be remotely called a 1911, would be made by Colt itself. They are the original maker, and are still making them. You might be able to lump Remington in there as well, as they were an original WWI maker under the Remington UMC banner.

Everything else on the market is a 1911 or 1911A1 type.
Yep!
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:15 PM
kinnison kinnison is offline
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I think this is a case where everybody is wrong but everybody is right.My current house 1911 has every thing i could put on or in it works great but it looks like every other black 1911 out there. My current carry is a light weight commander a copy of what col Cooper recomendded. Are they 1911s sure exact copys of a colt no,so what they do there duty.If its a 1911 to you then its a 1911.
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Old 08-26-2015, 04:11 PM
Jason D Jason D is offline
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Originally Posted by kinnison View Post
I think this is a case where everybody is wrong but everybody is right.My current house 1911 has every thing i could put on or in it works great but it looks like every other black 1911 out there. My current carry is a light weight commander a copy of what col Cooper recomendded. Are they 1911s sure exact copys of a colt no,so what they do there duty.If its a 1911 to you then its a 1911.
For the sake of expediency. I usually refer to all of mine as a 1911. When you say 1911 everyone knows what you are referring to, though some have taken on monikers of their own. Like the Range Officer, TRP, or guns like the Gold Cup.

I think in modern usage of the 1911 title, you can get away with calling them all that. It's just not correct though.

I wonder of there is any other type of gun out there, that is made by many makers. Yet has the encompassing same name. I mean one of the most copied gun after the M1911 would have to be the Colt SAA. No one would call a Ruger a SAA...
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:19 PM
kinnison kinnison is offline
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The other most copied would be the s&w j and k frames externally there have to be a dozen companies putting out tons of them.
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2015, 05:43 PM
KyJim KyJim is offline
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I LOVE post 17.

Here's a photo of some of my pistols from several manufacturers. Every single one of them is a 1911 in my mind. I do have some SAO pistols that look like 1911s but are not, like the Sig P238, Colt Mustang, and Star Model B Super. Maybe it's the P238 the OP is referring to when he asks about folks thinking a Sig is not a 1911. It's not. I do have one Sig in the group below and it is a 1911.

To be a 1911, it has to have a tilting barrel system with a swinging link and locking lugs and it must be single action only with a frame mounted external safety. Those are the basics but not everything.

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