22 TCM Failure to Extract - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-27-2014, 11:02 AM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
22 TCM Failure to Extract

I recently bought a 22 TCM/9mm. There was no ammo available locally so the first time I shot it I shot 200 rounds of 9mm. It functioned perfectly using the installed extractor and changing to the 9mm barrel.

This week I received the 22 TCM ammo that I had ordered. Out of 120 rounds fired I had about a 90-95% failure to extract rate. The casing would remain in the chamber and I would end up with a double feed. I tried firing with only one round in the chamber and it would also fail to extract, but at least I wasn't dealing with the double feed. I was able to get a lot of practice clearing double feed malfunctions.

The brass looked normal, other than some cratering of the primers. There were no obvious bulges or any scratches to the fired casings. On some of the rims there was a slight marking where the extractor had slipped over the rim. If it was a timing issue I would expect to see damage to the case rims.

When I field stripped the pistol I found that the extractor would not hold a 22 TCM casing in place, a 9mm casing was held very firmly. I changed out the extractor for the other and found it did the same thing. The original extractor has a thicker hook portion than the other. It also has a "T" marked on it.

After a bit of tuning to the original extractor I got it to hold a 22 TCM live round in place. I will not have an opportunity to test fire it again for a while.

I contacted Rock Island and received a very prompt response. They are willing to help out on the issue. They suggested that by firing 9mm using the 22 TCM extractor may have caused it to wear. It is a possibility, and I never had the chance to check the extractor tension with a 22 TCM before I fired it with the 9mm barrel.

Rock Island seems to be willing to stand behind their products. I have a Tactical 9mm and it has been flawless since day one.

BTW. I chronographed 10 shots, the high was 2137, low: 2019 and average 2077. That was using the Armscor Precision 40 grain.

Hopefully the extraction issue has been repaired. I am looking forward to using the pistol on prairie dogs this summer.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-27-2014, 11:16 AM
MR_22 MR_22 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Utah
Posts: 390
Yeah, that's strange and very concerning. My 22TCM has been 100% reliable, although I haven't shot thousands of rounds yet.

Your Chrony results match mine. Those little bullets sure are screaming when they come out!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-27-2014, 01:22 PM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
MR 22, I see you're also from Utah. Over the past weekend I noticed that Sierra Guns was running an ad for a RIA 22 TCM. Price listed is $499. I checked and it doesn't have the 9mm conversion. It's listed as a 5" barrel.

This morning I worked on 2 Mecgar Para Ord 38 Super mags. The springs are 1 coil longer than the 22 TCM Mag. I also modified the feed lips trying to match the contour of the 22 TCM Mag. I noticed that on the 38 Super mags the feed lips are not as wide as on the 22 TCM Mag. The Mecgar mags are about $20 from Midwest Gun Works.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 02-27-2014, 02:32 PM
MR_22 MR_22 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Utah
Posts: 390
Indeed I am! That looks like a good deal. Is that the compact version? I've had my TCM for coming upon a year now (well, in May, anyway).

I have a .38-Super Para Ordnance 22-round magazine that I bought for my TCM (and paid too much). It doesn't feed. The rounds nosedive. I'm planning some work on it. The follower is pressed up from underneath by the spring in a different location than the TCM mags. I'm wondering if that's the issue. I was thinking of modifying the follower to see if I could make use of it, as I would really like a 22-round TCM magazine. Some of my pics here on the board feature the 22-round magazine with the extender cap.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-27-2014, 11:09 PM
OldEagleEars OldEagleEars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Shawnee, Kansas; a suburb of Kansas City
Age: 75
Posts: 2,289
pmiya - As you are probably aware, the 5" TCM's came with two extractors; one for the .22 TCM cartridge and one specifically for 9mm. As I and several others discovered, the 9mm extractor would not reliably pull the TCM shells from the chamber, resulting in the failures you described. However, the hook marked "TCM" would yank both cartridges without hesitation. My measurements indicated that the base rim of the TCM case was thicker than a standard 9mm case at the same point. At some date last year Armscor ceased shipping TCM combo's with the 9mm extractor, only the TCM version. I have had no trouble with this extractor, my only stoppage was the result of a fired case swelling itself to tightly in the chamber to be pulled by anything (a brass rod down the barrel and few solid taps with a mallet finally got it out). I will be very interested in what Armscor says about your problem and the remedy they propose.
__________________
"De gustibus non disputandem est"
(In matters of taste there can be no disputes)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-28-2014, 09:56 AM
mightymouse mightymouse is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 198
I would be interested to hear what Armscor says as well, as I have a brand new 9mm/.22TCM combo myself. I like what I've heard about the .22 TCM cartridge, while my g.f. likes 9mm 1911s. The pistol currently has the 9mm barrel and recoil spring with the original .22 TCM extractor installed. I haven't had a chance to shoot mine yet, and the weekend weather does not look very promising, but I'll post something when I get a chance to finally shoot it.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-28-2014, 10:46 AM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
I was using the TCM extractor and it worked great with 9mm. When I contacted Rock Island I was told that it was possible that using the TCM extractor for 9mm may have caused it to "wear" this is the response I received from Rock Island.

Thank you for contacting us. I am sorry to hear about the issues you are having, we can certainly have the firearm returned under warranty for inspection and repair. When you swapped out the 9mm barrel did you swap the 9mm extractor in? The extractors are tuned for each caliber and if you did not swap the 9mm extractor in there is a possibility running 9mm through the TCM extractor worn the TCM extractor out of tune and when you were able to use TCM rounds this is why it had issues. You need to always use the correct extractor tuned for each caliber. Please let me know if you have any further issues and we will take care of this for you.

I have tuned the extractor for the TCM. Before tuning it would not hold a fired case in place (slide removed from frame and no barrel). After tuning it will hold a live round in place. I'm probably not going to be able to test fire the pistol until sometime next week.

My TCM/9mm was purchased last week and is serial TCM0064XX. It came with the TCM barrel and the extractor marked "T" installed. The day I bought it I didn't have any 22 TCM ammo. That day I put 200 rounds of 9mm through it using the TCM extractor. It functioned fine, one note the spend casings were dropping only a foot or 2 away from me.

Last edited by pmiya; 02-28-2014 at 10:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-28-2014, 11:59 PM
OldEagleEars OldEagleEars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Shawnee, Kansas; a suburb of Kansas City
Age: 75
Posts: 2,289
pmiya - Brother, you do present a puzzlement to me! Two thoughts come to mind though; first, was the 200-rounds you shot by any chance steel-cased? I'm thinking there might be a possibility that steel-case ammo might have caused premature wear on your extractor hook. Secondly, the short throw of the empties makes me wonder if your ejector is possibly at fault or in cahoots with the extractor in causing this.
__________________
"De gustibus non disputandem est"
(In matters of taste there can be no disputes)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-01-2014, 01:28 AM
jam_o_matic jam_o_matic is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Wichita, KS
Posts: 199
Take them up on the offer and send it in to be taken care of under warranty, there may be more here than meets the eye as OEE has mentioned. Just my .02 worth.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-01-2014, 10:02 AM
whitelightning whitelightning is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Carolina, loris
Posts: 89
The same thing happened to mine and i sent it in and they put one in that worked with 9mm and 22tcm and have not had anymore issues with it with over 2ooo rounds sense than.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-01-2014, 09:16 PM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
In most calibers I only shoot reloaded ammo, so it's all brass cased. Tuning the extractor is no big deal and if it doesn't work I'll contact Armscor again.

Sending it back means I have to drive to either a UPS or FedEx hub plus making sure I'm around to receive the package when it gets shipped back. I've owned quite a few 1911's over the past 3 or 4 decades. I carried a Colt Gold Cup as a duty weapon for 8 years before I had to carry an issued weapon. I wore out a barrel, bushings, numerous extractors and recoil springs on that Gold Cup. The only other issue with that Gold Cup was the plunger tube coming loose.

The weak ejection with the 9mm may be a symptom of an issue with the extractor. One thing it made it a lot easier to pick up the brass. At least all of the rounds were extracted and ejected.

I really believe that the TCM extractor wasn't tuned properly, 200 rounds of 9mm shouldn't have worn it out. Armscor puts out a lot of weapons and there's going to be a problem now and then. They have a good reputation for standing behind their products. I posted my issue just in case someone else was having the same issue.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-02-2014, 11:24 PM
dyogi dyogi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 48
I recently purchased a 22TCM and is has shot flawlessly. The newer pistols don't come with 2 extractors, its a one size fits all deal.

The president of Armscor has announced that they will no longer be selling 22TCM's with the 9mm conversion so if you're looking for a kit, get it before they run out.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-03-2014, 01:56 PM
MR_22 MR_22 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Utah
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyogi View Post
The president of Armscor has announced that they will no longer be selling 22TCM's with the 9mm conversion so if you're looking for a kit, get it before they run out.
That's a shame. The 9mm barrel is what pushed me over the top to buy the TCM. I figured that if the 22TCM round fell out of favor, or if I couldn't get ammo, then I'd always still have a 9mm 1911.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-03-2014, 07:09 PM
dyogi dyogi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 48
That's what made it appealing to me too, like getting two guns for the price of one.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-03-2014, 07:13 PM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
I put 150 rounds through the TCM this afternoon. It's doing better, I would say it's extracting maybe 50% at best. I'm done trying to fix the extractor, I've sent another message to Armscor to get a return authorization. One thing I've notice, some of the casings are jammed in the chamber pretty tight and it takes several attempts to get them to extract. The cases don't show any bulges or other obvious signs of an issue with the chamber.

I was hoping it was going to be a fairly easy fix. I'm impressed with the 22 TCM caliber and I would like to pick up one of the Armscor rifles when they become available.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-03-2014, 11:24 PM
OldEagleEars OldEagleEars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Shawnee, Kansas; a suburb of Kansas City
Age: 75
Posts: 2,289
The case that stoppaged* me was swollen .005 over standard of other fired .22TCM cases. The deformation was approximately 3-4mm up from the extraction groove. In this instance the extractor was fully engaged and would not release until I had forced the case out with a rod down the barrel. It sounds like the same problem you are having.

*"stoppaged" - a verb used by a Drill Instructor at Ft. Leonard Wood to describe the act of having a stoppage, or inturruption of fire, with a firearm.
__________________
"De gustibus non disputandem est"
(In matters of taste there can be no disputes)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-01-2014, 04:24 PM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
My 22 TCM was delivered back to me this afternoon. Ryan at Armscor also sent me some ammo for my troubles. It's obvious the slide has been replaced. Last week when Ryan called he needed my approval to replace the slide with one that did not have the Rock Island markings, it only is marked TCM on the right side. I can see that both extractors have been replaced and have been fitted and tuned. Both barrels have been test fired and the invoice shows that it was test fired and functioned. When Ryan called he told me that the gunsmith had test fired the pistol and according to the gunsmith it is "very accurate".

Hopefully the weather will be better in the nest day or two and I will get a chance to go out and do some shooting.

I've been treated very well by Armscor

Last edited by pmiya; 04-01-2014 at 06:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-01-2014, 05:47 PM
wolfhowle wolfhowle is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 425
don't you mean "rock island" markings?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-01-2014, 06:07 PM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
Yep, should read Rock Island, it's been a long day.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-04-2014, 08:52 PM
strongbullet strongbullet is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: south carolina
Posts: 6
I had problems with FTE's also with factory ammo from Phil., US ammo was flawless. A little trick you could try, it worked for me. If you know someone who works in a plastics plant have them get you some mold release spray, spray cases before loading and allow to dry. I was able to fire 150 rounds without a jam.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-05-2014, 11:08 AM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
When I purchased the original order of ammo for ASW it was Philippine manufacture. It had a velocity of over 2000 FPS listed in the ad. The other ammo was listed at 1875 FPS. Recently I saw that the velocity for both are now listed at 1875 FPS. The primers on the fired brass was very flattened and also had cratering on the primers.

I have some of the U.S. produced ammo and will try it out when I test fire the pistol. I just haven't had a chance to get out and do some shooting. I was told that the pistol had been test fired and it is extracting and is "very accurate".

On a side note the invoice showed a new slide (less sights) and 2 9mm extractors. When I cleaned the pistol I saw that both extractors were clearly marked 9mm. The extractor that was installed with the 22 TCM barrel held a live round very securely. I haven't installed the other extractor or 9mm barrel. Both extractors showed evidence of hand fitting as did the slide.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-05-2014, 12:03 PM
rockyraccoon rockyraccoon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gideons Bible
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmiya View Post
When I purchased the original order of ammo for ASW it was Philippine manufacture. It had a velocity of over 2000 FPS listed in the ad. The other ammo was listed at 1875 FPS. Recently I saw that the velocity for both are now listed at 1875 FPS. The primers on the fired brass was very flattened and also had cratering on the primers.

I have some of the U.S. produced ammo and will try it out when I test fire the pistol. I just haven't had a chance to get out and do some shooting. I was told that the pistol had been test fired and it is extracting and is "very accurate".

On a side note the invoice showed a new slide (less sights) and 2 9mm extractors. When I cleaned the pistol I saw that both extractors were clearly marked 9mm. The extractor that was installed with the 22 TCM barrel held a live round very securely. I haven't installed the other extractor or 9mm barrel. Both extractors showed evidence of hand fitting as did the slide.
I've had the USA made ammo do the same exact thing ...............just sayin

my reloads on the other hand, have an deviation between velocity's that is much much better than the factory stuff. So far to date none of my reloads have ever failed to extract . knock on wood .

my theory is that every now and then you get one that's got a few xtra flakes of powder in it causing high pressure and swelling the case . I know that with H110 it doesn't take much to alter the velocity and pressure significantly .

and btw don't be suprised when you see flattened primers on the USA ammo either , because they do .
__________________
Happiness is a warm gun !
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-08-2014, 07:59 PM
pmiya pmiya is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 118
Finally got a chance to try out the 22 TCM today. Put 70 rounds through it without a hitch. It was hitting about 4 inches right and 8 inches low at 25 yards. The sight is adjusted very high and quite a bit to the left but it functions fine. I may have to file the front sight down a bit.

I noticed that the primers on the US made ammo was also flattened and had some cratering. I didn't chronograph any of the ammo today. I was mainly function testing the pistol. It's accuracy is decent, 3 inches at 25 yards for me is fine.

I spent more time shooting a few other 1911's. Put 300 rounds through a RIA 9mm Tactical. Got a change to try out the Colt Lightweight Officers I picked up last week, it functioned perfect with several different loads. I spent some time testing some 45 ACP loads out of my old duty Gold Cup. After 30 some odd years the rear sight pivot pin on the Gold Cup finally broke, not bad considering I've worn out and replaced a barrel on that gun.

I'm very happy with the service Armscor provided on the TCM. It's going to be an interesting round to work with. I've loaded a few rounds with Win 296 and Lil Gun. I think the Win 296 loads are more accurate. The only problem is finding powder.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-21-2014, 11:26 AM
WA1EMT WA1EMT is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Houston, Texas
Age: 48
Posts: 12
the reason for the fte on the 22tcm

Folks I need to do the right thing and let you all know of some majorly disturbing news.
The first 22tcm that I purchased was a joy to shoot until at the range I had 3 failure to extract and 3 stovepipe stoppages. I immediately called armscor and told them the issue. They told me not to fix it but to send it in as is. I did as I was told and a few days later I had a new 22tcm being sent to me along with replacement rounds at there cost to break it in again.
Needless to say I was thrilled. I inquired a few times as to the reason the first gun had the issue and I was told that the slide wasn't cut right. Ok..not knowing the details I bought the explanation.
Now just yesterday in front of a class I was teaching the 22tcm did it again. This time a failure to extract and double feed not once but twice.
When I left the range I called armscor and talked to the only person that was there which was Shawn the gunsmith. He informed me that they had some rounds that were loaded hot and that caused the casing to swell in the barrel. He stated that he has only heard of this one other time a few months ago. (Funny, I am betting that it was my first gun).
He wanted to know the lot numbers of the boxes of ammo I had and I told him that I took them all out of the boxes and bagged them in groups of 100 so I have no idea what the lot numbers were.
He said that they would replace them all which is a small consolation.
I asked him why no one had received an email in regards to this.I did not get an answer.
Now folks I carry all the time, I am a concealed handgun instructor and tactical medic. I love my 22tcm but the fact is that I now cannot stake my life on a gun that may or may not function properly.
Had I needed it to defend my life, I would be dead.
This is unacceptable on every level and instead of hiding in the weeds I want to make sure that every one of you know of this issue.
Armscor needs to do alot of fixing and alot of damage control and make things right.
If there manufacturing process let even 50 hot rounds go thru then that is 50 chances that someone in defense of there life could be killed becuse there weapon will no longer fire.
I was going to switch over to armscor ammo for my company and all my training but I will stick with Remington or Federal no matter what the cost. I cannot stake my life on a chance that there ammo will function properly.
Now while armscor may be pisses at me, they should hang there head in shame that they never told anyone about this issue and that they allowed improperly loaded ammo to leave there plant and never told anyone about it.
Were not talking about a vacumn cleaner or a flashlight, were talking about a product that people depend on for there very lives and the lives of others.
Thank you for your time.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-21-2014, 03:45 PM
OldEagleEars OldEagleEars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Shawnee, Kansas; a suburb of Kansas City
Age: 75
Posts: 2,289
WA1EMT - An interesting situation there. As long-time followers of TCM threads on this forum may remember, I had a case swelling issue last year that I made know in these pages. It didn't happen with all my ammo but it did stop my shooting that day and I was curious enough to mike the casing and report it here. This past Saturday I had another similar problem with another TCM case swelling in the chamber while at the Rockslide and others could see the swollen area of the brass. It was from the same case lot of TCM ammo that NIGHT AL and I had bought last summer, I had grabbed a couple of boxes out of my safe on Saturday morning before making the trip even though I had two boxes of ammo purchased late last fall already in my range bag. I'm thinking I opened one of the older boxes at Jeff City and had been running them in my gun. Not every round was bad and we even chrony'd a few through another gun as a benchmark for some reloads that had been brought. So here we are with a few of these over-stuffed rounds showing up and on a range toy like my gun they are an irritation though for a defensive pistol they would be a major worry and rightly so.
However, more information is needed about the situation before I go about handing out pitchforks and torches for a march on Armscor Castle!
Like, were these defects made here in the states or were they Philippine-produced and was it part of a start-up batch of TCM ammo production as the new plant came on line?
Also, Armscor ammo in more conventional calibers and loadings has been very reliable and successfully used for some time now. Granted, it is also all FMJ "practice rounds" that I have seen which makes it unsuitable as carry-ammo for many people (myself included) so the possible failure of a round is again more of an irritation on the range than a matter of life and death. While the TCM has been the subject of much discussion as a defensive round, to my knowledge Armscor has never promoted it as such and probably won't until some more suitable projectile can be fitted and the results tested conclusively.
While I am eager to know exactly which batches of TCM have defective rounds and what I can do to eliminate them from my stockpile, it won't prevent me from shooting my TCM and enjoying the experience. Though as the Rockheads saw Saturday, I always have a brass rod available just in case I get another one of those "hot" rounds.
__________________
"De gustibus non disputandem est"
(In matters of taste there can be no disputes)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved