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  #51  
Old 02-23-2015, 11:53 AM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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I'm looking into having my tcm barrel machined down to the smaller diameter and having a new barrel bushing made so the barrel cannot wiggle before the casing is out. My other idea is to have material added to my barrel so the bushing I have will work but I'm not sure that's possible...talking to a gunsmith about it tonight
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  #52  
Old 02-23-2015, 12:45 PM
RoyP RoyP is offline
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when I shot mine for the first time I had a stuck case the first 2 or 3 rounds in every mag for 50 rounds. every time I dropped the slide and the round ejected by hand. didn't need to put anything down the barrel to get it out. I cleaned the barrel and chamber per armscor's instructions before I shot it but it didn't help. I took it home cleaned the barrel again. I took a 45acp bore mop,chucked it in my cordless drill, put a little flitz on it, I did a quick polish on the chamber pushing it hard enough to get the taper and neck part too. Next trip to the range I ran 50 rounds through it without a single failure to extract. My pistol is the newer type that only comes with the one extractor that is suppose to work with both calibers.
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  #53  
Old 02-23-2015, 02:21 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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I had 12 extraction failures in the first 50....I'm going to talk to a gunsmith tonight and if it's cheap enough to have him work on it I'd rather do that than send the whole works back to ria for 2 weeks. The frustrating part is that the casings aren't immediately stuck. When I only put one in at a time so the slide lock engages they are pulled back 1/8" or so before they slip. This tells me that the barrel is wiggling before the casing is out which makes sense looking at the end of the barrel how it's tapered smaller I'd assume for weight reduction. The slide doesn't have to move very far before the barrel bushing no longer stabilizes the barrel. I'll try to put up a quick video or pics later showing this.
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  #54  
Old 02-23-2015, 05:20 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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Just to throw in another kink, mine was stuck so either the slide didn't cycle OR a chunk was ripped out of the case rim. It had to be knocked out. The ones that stick in mine are extremely long. I've got well over a 1000+ rds now and it hasn't had an issue in some time. I cleared mine up with using one of the stuck cases and some very fine lapping compound. Took about an hr . Rotated it like lapping a valve. Mine has been so reliable that I am thinking about leaving my rod home.

You can go through a couple of boxes in 15 min. That's what is so frustrating. Steve
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  #55  
Old 02-23-2015, 05:57 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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The failures with mine all had chunks torn off rim too. I bought some more ammo from the gun store I bought it from and asked him about it. He carries 1911s and has for years. He says that a failure to eject is usually just the ejector clip being "not adjusted right".....so I tore into my gun again and it is all the way against and not at all loose, can't go any tighter but I did "tweak it" to give it a little more tension to eliminate that possibility. Since it was tight against I really don't think that was the problem, it was getting a full bite on the casing. I'm not ruling out casing expansion as being part of the problem. I get that sometimes with my 17HMR rifle, usually 1 out of a box of 50. 12 in a box of 50, as with my TCM, leads me to believe that there are multiple factors at play. I played with it for about an hour tonight and I still think the barrel design could be to blame. It looks to me that this is a 9mm pistol that was retrofit to shoot the 22TCM. I wish the outside diameter of the TCM barrel was not tapered and it came with a second barrel bushing for the smaller diameter barrel. IMO that would really tighten up the gun as a whole. I'm not at all unhappy with the gun since the 9mm works flawlessly. Challenge accepted on getting this thing to run reliably with BOTH calibers
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  #56  
Old 02-23-2015, 06:29 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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If the case is that stuck and the extractor has such a good hold that the slide does not cycle and the case has to be knocked out, that tells me case expansion or something amiss with the chamber or ammo problems. I tried various lot #'s of ammo. I had several boxes and found some lots were fine and one lot# in particuliar would not shoot. I sent the remaining box with the bad lot# back to Armscor and got a replacement box with an extra box, too.I did the felt bullet shaped Dremel polishing bit in a variable speed drill motor so I could go slow but my best results came with the fine lapping compound. Keep in mind that I do not recommend anybody doing this. I'm sure that what I did voided the warranty.

Last edited by harleyhopper; 02-23-2015 at 06:34 PM.
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  #57  
Old 02-23-2015, 06:54 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Luckily I didn't have to knock any of mine out though. They weren't THAT stuck thank God! The first one I opted to inspect closely, I took the barrel out and with my pliers, grabbed the casing and with a wiggle twist it came right out. The rest I was able to clear by smacking the slide forward to grab the casing again and then pulling the slide back with my index finger while I held the front of the barrel to the left. Most people probably won't have much luck trying this method, I have abnormal grip strength. They seemed less stuck and more something caused the extractor clip to slip....it wasn't ripping the whole rim off but you could definitely see the marks in the brass where they had slipped.
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  #58  
Old 02-23-2015, 07:12 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANual_puller View Post
They seemed less stuck and more something caused the extractor clip to slip
Since I ran a few rounds through it one at a time so the slide lock would engage I could see that the casings had in fact come out about 1/8" before they slipped off the extractor clip. I might get the opportunity to shoot it some more this weekend. If I do I'll be sure to snag a pic of this.
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  #59  
Old 02-23-2015, 09:24 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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I would be concerned when hitting the slide forward, thus forcing the extractor claw over the case rim, that you would damage or make the extractor lose tension. Same thing as dropping the slide over a chambered round.
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  #60  
Old 02-23-2015, 10:38 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhopper View Post
I would be concerned when hitting the slide forward, thus forcing the extractor claw over the case rim, that you would damage or make the extractor lose tension. Same thing as dropping the slide over a chambered round.
Good thing I have two extractors then lol When I inspected the TCM extractor today everything appeared normal. It is tight and, with the slide off and assembled, it holds a spent TCM casing more firmly than the 9mm extractor holds a spent 9mm casing and the 9mm is not malfunctioning. The extractor is made of spring steel, I would hardly think the soft brass rim with half the mass as the claw would damage it which is why I did what I did. I did notice when I was placing the spent casings that it didn't take much force when they were in place to get them to "slip" or "pop out". The only real difference I can see between the 9mm and 22TCM mechanically is the fact that the barrel bushing in the end of the slide stabilizes the 9mm barrel the whole length of the recoil stroke while it only stabilizes the TCM barrel for 1/4" or so. Has anyone noticed this? Pull the slide back and the barrel flops around all over.

I'm going to pull the firing pin out to disable the weapon and use a live round to test this theory. A live round should slide in and out of the chamber easily thus eliminating the casing expansion theory from this test. Also the rim will be fresh with no tool marks from slipping. I want to test only the barrel wiggle theory. If I put a single round in the magazine, chamber it, I should then be able to pull the slide back while wiggling the barrel and see if it does indeed make the extractor let go of the casing. Does this seem like a good test without trying to find someone with a high speed camera and heading to the range? Results tomorrow after work

Funny thing about this whole scenario is that I wasn't even shopping for a 22TCM when I bought it. I am bound and determined to find out what is causing mine to fail and hopefully my experience helps someone else out. I think it's a combination of the casing expansion issue known to exist in other necked down rounds and the barrel wiggling. I'm hoping that if I can find a way to control the barrel wiggling the extractor will be able to overcome the increased friction of the casing expanding. I'll know after running my test tomorrow afternoon if this is all in my head or a real possibility Thank you harleyhopper for responding and sharing your experiences!
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  #61  
Old 02-24-2015, 12:39 PM
RoyP RoyP is offline
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I understand your thinking about the barrel's taper but I don't think that is the cause of your problem. there are many many pistol designs out there that use a tapered type barrel that doesn't cause extraction issues. You may be able to get it to fail moving the slide and barrel by hand, keep in mind during actual firing everything moves in the matter of seconds. So your finding may not be accurate.

when the slide is back the barrel is all the way rearward on the link and the barrel lugs are against the impact surface. The bushing at this point isn't supporting anything.

this may be a good topic to bring up in the gunsmith section. you would get more insight on whats going on.
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  #62  
Old 02-24-2015, 01:33 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyP View Post
I understand your thinking about the barrel's taper but I don't think that is the cause of your problem. there are many many pistol designs out there that use a tapered type barrel that doesn't cause extraction issues. You may be able to get it to fail moving the slide and barrel by hand, keep in mind during actual firing everything moves in the matter of seconds. So your finding may not be accurate.

when the slide is back the barrel is all the way rearward on the link and the barrel lugs are against the impact surface. The bushing at this point isn't supporting anything.

this may be a good topic to bring up in the gunsmith section. you would get more insight on whats going on.
Also, take a look at a bull barrel with the reverse plug setup. There is nothing supporting the barrel.
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  #63  
Old 02-24-2015, 02:18 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Hmmmm....not going to lie, I'm not very familiar with very many different firearms. My mechanical background is making my ocd go off when I see a bushing that isn't supporting something all the time I did the clean and polish the chamber thing and I upped the tension some on the extractor clip. The plan right now is to do my little test gathering some data, hit the range this weekend to see if it runs better gathering more data. If it's still not right I'm going to talk to a local gunsmith who is also a 1911 specialist about it. If I decide that doing some work to it is necessary it will for sure go up under gunsmithing. Thanks for the ideas and info!
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  #64  
Old 02-24-2015, 03:36 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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A .22 TCM is not a traditional 1911 cartridge . My suggestion is to take several different lot #'s of ammo. Try each one. See if it is ammo related. Steve
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  #65  
Old 02-24-2015, 05:29 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harleyhopper View Post
A .22 TCM is not a traditional 1911 cartridge . My suggestion is to take several different lot #'s of ammo. Try each one. See if it is ammo related. Steve
That would be nice if I could do that. The only place I can find the 22TCM ammunition is the gunstore where I bought it lol Very sparsely populated area I live in. The "big city" in the county only has a 2a high school lol Believe it or not there isn't even a Wal-Mart in this county. I already scoured the pile of 15 or so boxes that he had and they were all the same lot I did do my little test and it is apparently all in my head. I couldn't reproduce the extraction problem with either fresh rounds or spent casings I will say the extra tension I tweaked into the extractor clip certainly seems to help Hopefully I can get it to the range this weekend and get more data.

On a side note, I was reading more into the manual about the ammunition. It says in there that the 22TCM round uses a slower burning powder, hence the giant muzzle flash. My thinking now is that the pressure is still high enough as the round is being ejected that it expands and wedges occasionally as enough of the round comes out for the pressure to overcome the strength of the casing. I could see the wider spot about 1/8" from the rim that's been talked about on all of the rounds that failed to extract. I've read that guys are having good luck with reloads although I don't currently have the tools to reload the TCM round yet. Anyone tried less of a quicker burning powder? Saving all my good brass for a later date
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  #66  
Old 02-24-2015, 06:03 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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I've only seen a place or two that has the .22 TCM ammo around my town so I frequent ammoseek quiet often and buy enough to make the shipping fee less of a hit. The reason I did the lapping procedure was from all the reading on case expansion on the .223 round. Again, I don't recommend this unless you talk with a gunsmith. It fixed me up.

I love this round. I would love to see this caliber in a pocket size 6 rd pistol. Steve
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  #67  
Old 02-24-2015, 06:35 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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I really like the round too. It's a spunky little thing and it's got a nice light recoil that my wife can handle easily. I just need to get it reliable. Do you know anyone that carries a TCM? If I were to carry this firearm right now I'd have to opt for the 9mm, that hasn't failed yet. I want to get the TCM to where I know it won't ever fail. I don't want it to be just a play-around range round.
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  #68  
Old 02-24-2015, 06:54 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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I saw a video of Martin Tuason, pres of Armscor, and he said a TCM is what he carried, if I'm not mistaken. Mine has shot enough troublefree rds to be carry worthy. Steve
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  #69  
Old 02-24-2015, 07:48 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Sweet. So basically I need to learn how to be patient then Sounds like this TCM is going to be a lot like my 17HMR rifle was. It took quite a few boxes before that would extract the spent casings reliably too. Hopefully my friend gets back to me and we can kill some water jugs in his pasture this weekend I'm really hopeful that I'll see some good improvement after the chamber polish and extractor clip tweak
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  #70  
Old 02-25-2015, 08:09 AM
rockyraccoon rockyraccoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANual_puller View Post
I really like the round too. It's a spunky little thing and it's got a nice light recoil that my wife can handle easily. I just need to get it reliable. Do you know anyone that carries a TCM? If I were to carry this firearm right now I'd have to opt for the 9mm, that hasn't failed yet. I want to get the TCM to where I know it won't ever fail. I don't want it to be just a play-around range round.
better start reloading then because the factory ammo isn't reliable at all. I've had brand new brass that won't even fit into the shell holder for reloading.
Wait, What ? thats the same groove the extractor fit's in .
and the case lengths are all over the place on unfired NEW BRASS. Same with factory ammo
anything over 1.028 you run the risk big time of jammed cases in the chamber , 1.030 and longer is almost guaranteed to jam .add a couple xtra flakes of powder (yes they are that sensitive) to a long case , you'll want to have a brass rod and hammer handy .
I've seen velocity spreads with factory ammo that are as much as 300 fps different on the chrono . from the same box . W T F !
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Last edited by rockyraccoon; 02-25-2015 at 08:25 AM.
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  #71  
Old 02-25-2015, 09:28 AM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Kinda what I was thinking. If I start reloading I was planning on backing the powder down a tick.
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  #72  
Old 02-25-2015, 10:38 AM
pmiya pmiya is offline
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I suspect that the issues are ammo related. As a lot of people have noted there are a lot of cases that are too long. Long cases will create excessive pressure, the long cases may be at the end of the chamber or even into the leade causing the bullet to be crimped in place when fired. One person has also noted that the TCM has a very short leade, most cartridges have a bit more taper where the rifling begins.

I haven't had any issues with reloads. I've been trimming all of my cases and my loads are below factory velocities.
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  #73  
Old 02-25-2015, 01:23 PM
swmp9jrm swmp9jrm is offline
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While I think the uniformity of the ammunition could be the root cause of the issues, I don't think that's the only contributing factor. I've shot the last 200+ rounds through my FS and MS TCM's without any stuck cases. This is using the same lots of both US and Philippine sourced TCM that I did my case measurement study on (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthre...=448833&page=2), and which showed several rounds over 1.030 in length - some of which resulted in stuck cases. Running a bore snake though the gun after every magazine or two has eliminated the stuck case issue for me. So, while I still think the uniformity of the cases is the major factor, and small differences in powder load contribute, the fact that cleaning the barrel stops the stuck cases strongly suggests that case expansion and carbon buildup due to blow by are part of the equation. What I cannot determine yet, however, is if this tendency improves with round count. Next time out I will be trying three magazines before the bore snake, and then four or more. I finally scored some H-110 powder, so will now be able to push this a little further without going broke on ammo costs!!

Bottom line, I continue to believe that this issue is not related to the extractor, but to the design of the bottlenecked cartridge, the chamber/barrel transition, and less than perfectly uniform ammunition - at least for my small sampling of TCM's. I'm hopeful that things improve with round count, but I don't have an issue with pulling a bore snake through the gun every once in a while. The TCM is just too much fun to shoot!!
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  #74  
Old 02-25-2015, 02:17 PM
harleyhopper harleyhopper is offline
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Bottom line, I continue to believe that this issue is not related to the extractor, but to the design of the bottlenecked cartridge, the chamber/barrel transition, and less than perfectly uniform ammunition - at least for my small sampling of TCM's. I'm hopeful that things improve with*round count, but I don't have an issue with pulling a bore snake through the gun every once in a while. The TCM is just too much fun to shoot!!

+++ Pretty well my thoughts. Most of my issues have been ammo related. Steve
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  #75  
Old 02-25-2015, 05:25 PM
MANual_puller MANual_puller is offline
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Originally Posted by harleyhopper View Post
Bottom line, I continue to believe that this issue is not related to the extractor, but to the design of the bottlenecked cartridge, the chamber/barrel transition, and less than perfectly uniform ammunition - at least for my small sampling of TCM's. I'm hopeful that things improve with*round count, but I don't have an issue with pulling a bore snake through the gun every once in a while. The TCM is just too much fun to shoot!!

+++ Pretty well my thoughts. Most of my issues have been ammo related. Steve
I'll definitely agree to that! I'm really anxious to go shoot it again I think my extractor may not have been sprung tight enough from the start. It definitely should be now Definitely hoping to see some improvement!
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