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  #351  
Old 03-20-2020, 04:23 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by SC shooter View Post
They are blinded by their own hatred of President Trump and the more presidential he looks the more enraged they become.
Bingo! Its just a shame that so many people still buy into the identity politics.
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  #352  
Old 03-20-2020, 04:27 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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^^^^

Yes. It is disgusting.

Also a bit disgusting (IMHO) is the hubris shown by Biden in putting out "Joe's plan to combat coronavirus". It is as though Creepy Uncle Joe doesn't understand that his plan is more than a day late and a dollar short; i.e., does he somehow suppose being in the White House anytime soon? Hopefully, he'll never be in the White House, but even if he hypothetically were to be, it would not be this year. For Biden to put out "his plan" is pure hubris and grandstanding for his leftists pals.

Biden's pledge to ban all 9mm chambered handguns should never be forgotten. This man -- who falsely claims to support the 2A -- must not be elected to the WH.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-20-2020 at 06:07 PM.
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  #353  
Old 03-20-2020, 04:27 PM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Is our lefty Governor going to defer also?
I don’t know, but he certainly should. NJ is 4th nationally with CV19 at least as of yesterday.
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  #354  
Old 03-20-2020, 08:18 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Hard to say, the weekend matches which have concentrations of people packed into each stage pit can be a nice spot to spread the virus to probably 60-70% of who 50+ year old's who shoot them. Nothing to do with CV but that is one of several reason's I stop going to matches years ago being on chemo since 2007 which raises my risk of really bad crap happening from regular flue.

They are still keeping the place open for any individual paying member who wants to shoot pistols/sg in the pits, or rifle at the 200-300 yard ranges, so I feel they come up with a good balance.

I'm guessing the owners wanted to stay on the "right" side of the Governors congregation orders also...No need to give the Lefty Admin a reason to shut the place down all together due to CV.
I mentioned this earlier, and in the similar thread on the CA "lockdown"- but its worth repeating...
Given that ~85% of those who contract this won't know, becayse they're asymptomatic or have minor symptoms similar to the flu, it's really incumbent on those at higher risk to mitigate and manage their risk and potential exposure. Its not on society at large to manage it for you.
My father, at 81 years old, who recently beat back multiple myeloma, has a compromised immune system- and he's staying away from other people as much as practical. I haven't visited him in several weeks- we just finished a resident phase where we had 4 students from Seattle, 2 of whom were on the same flight as the index patient in NC. There's a better than average probably that my peers and I were exposed to this. As we're all in robust health, its unlikely that we'll develop symptoms. However, now that the students have been released, we're on a telecommute/ work from home plan, and will be for at least the next 2 weeks. We're all limiting our public exposure- but not living in a bubble either. Spent 3 hours tooling about in a Citabiria with a coworker this morning, and the rest of the day stripping and re painting the wing struts. Life as normal.
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  #355  
Old 03-20-2020, 09:08 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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Expecting elderly folks to self-manage their environment, minimizing their risk, and maintain safe separation from younger people, perhaps their children and grandchildren, has not proven very realistic in many places.

On the contrary, a significant percentage of elderly people are heavily dependent on younger people.

Whether the younger people have any responsibility for protecting greater society in a pandemic is, a suppose, a philosophical and/or religious matter. (Although legal/enforced measures have been put in effect in some places worldwide).

Probably safe to say that some "not-at-risks" will choose (or already have chosen) one direction; others will choose the other direction.

Such is the nature of people.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-20-2020 at 09:18 PM.
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  #356  
Old 03-20-2020, 09:20 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Expecting elderly folks to self-manage their environment, and maintain safe separation from younger people, perhaps their children and grandchildren, has not proven very realistic in many places.

On the contrary, a significant percentage of elderly people are heavily dependent on younger people.

Whether the younger people have any responsibility for protecting greater society in a pandemic is, a suppose, a philosophical and/or religious matter.

Probably safe to say that some will (already have) choose one direction; others will choose the other direction.
If you're one that someone at risk is dependent upon, then it becomes your responsibility to protect those in your change. The responsibility is individual, and can be nothing less in our society. When government mandates closures and mass isolation, it violates our Constitution. Last I checked, that document didn't have an "except in case of" clause for "emergencies ". The "natural" rights enumerated are absolute, and of God, not of man.
We don't get to turn them on and off like a light switch....
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  #357  
Old 03-20-2020, 09:25 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
If you're one that someone at risk is dependent upon, then it becomes your responsibility to protect those in your change. The responsibility is individual, and can be nothing less in our society. When government mandates closures and mass isolation, it violates our Constitution. Last I checked, that document didn't have an "except in case of" clause for "emergencies ". The "natural" rights enumerated are absolute, and of God, not of man.
We don't get to turn them on and off like a light switch....
It is good to share each side of a subject. That's one of the best things about our Forum. I wished to focus in my post on the reality of what has actually occurred in the deaths of many elderly persons ... who otherwise might have had several more years of life.

Your comments are equally meritorious... especially to those, as myself, who have a fairly "interpret it as written" view of the Constitution...and who abhor leftists' re-interpretations. It is indeed dangerous to permit government to set precedents that stretch Constitutional limits on government powers.

These are difficult times and I do not pretend to have the answer for what's best in regard to combatting coronavirus while concurrently adhering to Constitutional limits on government powers. And a reason why I've closely followed everyone's input in this thread.

You're one of those top tier members who make this Forum the quality place it is, with far better delineation of issues than what's presented in mainstream media. Always a +1911 for your input WCB.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-20-2020 at 10:58 PM. Reason: Trying to get it "right"
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  #358  
Old 03-20-2020, 11:31 PM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is offline
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One thing that has created a lot of the issues in our society has been the purposeful act of not teaching civics and some life skills in schools. Civics classes taught us not only our rights, but our responsibilities as citizens. To many have come to think they have no responsibility, but that everyone else is supposed to take care of them. They don't know what their actual rights are either. Only what they rant about like spoiled infants with wild statements and a total disregard for others true rights.

So it's kind of wishful thinking that generations indoctrinated like this to take real responsibility for themselves or others they should be doing so for. So far here it's pretty much been "These are the guidelines and suggestions by the professionals." It's up to the various business and people to enact and adhere to them. Most places have adapted their operations to keep doing business while lessening interactions and crowds.

The school system where my wife works (next town over) took a few days after the end of Spring break to get their plans for keeping kids working at home and to get a meals plan going, but they got it going pretty quick and are working out the kinks along the way. Talking to our neighbor whose kids go to the local school she told us this school already had a plan in place before the weekend was up. Monday morning the cars lined up to pick up the kids Chromebooks with lesson plans already up and already had lunch plans ready as well. It's a small school here, but with a rep for good academics. My wife wishes she could teach here (only two miles away), but she would lose almost $10K a year and a much better medical plan which she needs.

For those who would knock the setting up of lunches for the kids even though not in the classroom this is not a fancy, rich area. The lunch programs are important to a lot of the kids and take some burden off the parents. Especially those with two or four kids in school. There are those who could probably do without being on a program, but overall it's something that suddenly losing it and having the kids at home makes an impact.

The thing is the schools here didn't wait for or require a "plan" from high up in the government to find solutions. They worked it through communications with the state and regional education system and a little thought, planning, and execution at the district level.

So far no "YOU MUST!" around here. Just, "Hey, these are good ideas, work with us here." And people for the most part seem to be doing just that.
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  #359  
Old 03-20-2020, 11:53 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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^^^

You live in a place where there is far more practical, common sense than what one finds in much of California, New York, Illinois, and other leftists' "paradises".

+1911 for everything you've shared.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-21-2020 at 12:00 AM.
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  #360  
Old 03-21-2020, 01:05 AM
johnireland johnireland is offline
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The irony in Los Angeles, gun stores selling ammunition for self defense isn't considered "essential" but pot stores are allowed to stay open because they are. Typical Democrats.
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  #361  
Old 03-21-2020, 04:50 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I mentioned this earlier, and in the similar thread on the CA "lockdown"- but its worth repeating...
Given that ~85% of those who contract this won't know, becayse they're asymptomatic or have minor symptoms similar to the flu, it's really incumbent on those at higher risk to mitigate and manage their risk and potential exposure. Its not on society at large to manage it for you.
My father, at 81 years old, who recently beat back multiple myeloma, has a compromised immune system- and he's staying away from other people as much as practical. I haven't visited him in several weeks- we just finished a resident phase where we had 4 students from Seattle, 2 of whom were on the same flight as the index patient in NC. There's a better than average probably that my peers and I were exposed to this. As we're all in robust health, its unlikely that we'll develop symptoms. However, now that the students have been released, we're on a telecommute/ work from home plan, and will be for at least the next 2 weeks. We're all limiting our public exposure- but not living in a bubble either. Spent 3 hours tooling about in a Citabiria with a coworker this morning, and the rest of the day stripping and re painting the wing struts. Life as normal.
I do agree that people need to manage their personal situations...One person you don't have to preach that to is me...I'm way ahead of you as I've been dodging pathogens, especially during flue season since 2007 when I got my first chemo doses over a several month period. Nasty, nasty, stuff back then, almost worse then what they were trying to treat...

Then I got another multi-month chemo sequence in 2011 - drugs got less harsh by then, but still nasty enough...

Then thank God, the researchers came out with a truly next-generation drug - taken by PILL daily! Relatively few side effects, which I started in 2015 and am still taking...Nevertheless, it is chemo and it depleets the immune system.

So now that I am moving almost 1/2 way into my 60's and have a 12 year history of Chemo, I am a 2X-Risk by any standard.

STILL, I ask for no-quarter, I don't ask anyone in society to make special considerations for me, I take my own actions for which I am responsible.

I don't even like talking about much. Overly-dwelling on such things can be self defeating. But I'm talking about it some lately because it is apprapo to the CV situation.

In flue season I wear an N95-mask and exam gloves when I go to tight public spaces - like food shopping (plus a few other process things)...And in reality for CV, I will approach it no different (essentially, with a few minor process changes)...And I try to get my shopping done at 8AM.

So nobody here is asking for a societal "handout" or special consideration. I never lived my life that way and never will.

But what is pissing me off to no end are 2 things:

1) what the media is doing to create panic (and to some extent some in the CDC). They preach: "Lets help seniors esp. those with preconditions". But because of the panic they are creating they are putting these people at additional risk, not less...There is now a national panic and people are hording all sorts of stuff. The food stores are packed 24X7...Although I have NP going shopping with my mask and gloves (hey, I've been dodging flue since 2007), my neighbor for example and his wife both in their 70's and with pre-conditions are literally afraid to go to the food store while this panic ensues and haven't left their house for 2 weeks (so far).

I also have another neighbor and friend, in his 50's perfectly healthy. Retired Leo, he goes to the food store literally every day (because many things are rationed), he is just buying anything he can get his hands on and storing it.

These two cases, 70 year old's who need access but are afraid to go to the food store, and a perfectly health 50 year old who is hording when he didn't before CV, a system which is upside down, thanks to the media.

Caution, reasonable precautions are good, panic is not and puts others at risk. The media should be put on one of those empty cruise-ships and dumped into the Pacific :-).

And the panic is going beyond toilet paper and such things. The major on-line meat-outlets (like Omaha Steak) is 80% out of stock, when just a week ago, they were fully stocked.

...which brings me to the 2nd item which is pissing me off:

2) One doesn't have to be a Brainiac to connect the dots btw why the media wants to panic the public, and the upcoming elections. If people start experience food shortages (perceived or real) in this country they will be less likely to vote for any incumbent-president...American's may put up with a lot of inconveniences, but food shortages are not one of them.

I want to see this over as soon as possible. And if that means keeping some of the country (mostly) in their homes, GO-FOR-IT (I'm all for this in both CA and NYC and other places if it becomes necessary)...This has absolutely nothing to do with my personal situation, I have processes as discussed above, it has to do with the best for America. We need to get POTUS re-elected, and the sooner this ends the more likely that will happen.
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Last edited by combat auto; 03-21-2020 at 07:13 AM.
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  #362  
Old 03-21-2020, 07:35 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by johnireland View Post
The irony in Los Angeles, gun stores selling ammunition for self defense isn't considered "essential" but pot stores are allowed to stay open because they are. Typical Democrats.
I heard that last night about “weed” sales..

But, what is more troubling ( but not surprising) is when Biden makes statements that he never would close the Southern border the way POTUS did because it wouldnt help fighting Covid 19...

Biden continues to be consistent and demonstrate that he literally doesn’t have a clue regarding any national or international decision making ability.
I suppose, from our standpoint, come Election Day, that will be good for Us.
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  #363  
Old 03-21-2020, 07:59 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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^^^

Biden needs to change the wording on his tour bus from "No Mularky" to "Load of Mularky".

And as CA states, it is imperative that Trump be re-elected. Not that I'm in lockstep agreement with Trump (or anyone else), but the alternative is a catastrophic loss of fundamental Constitutional rights and a mentally declining (at best) person as Commander in Chief.
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  #364  
Old 03-21-2020, 08:02 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
^^^

Biden needs to change the wording on his tour bus from "No Mularky" to "Load of Mularky".
Indeed!!
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  #365  
Old 03-21-2020, 08:16 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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I tried to search up a link to something promising i heard last night in the way of treatment for cv19. Interesting, that the link didnt open (tinfoil hat moment)..
We’ve been hearing about plaquenil ( the old malaria drug), but now there was a report that Plaquenil+Azithromycin ( Z-Paks) may help treat cv19. Neither are anti virals, but have been around a long time, cheap and readily available. The other is a Rheumatoid Arthritis med whose name escapes me. This is above and beyond the other 20 or so anti virals being tested, modified or developed.
We’re in the midst of a perverbial sh*t storm at the moment, but it does demonstrate how potus and the scientific community are working together to get some resolve to this and bypass the usual bureaucratic delays in finding a viable treatment.
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  #366  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:06 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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While I'm more on the side of concern and wariness, coronavirus news from China seems to be remarkably upbeat:

https://www.rt.com/news/483707-china...al-infections/

Apparently no or virtually no new cases. Seems hard to believe, but even if it's somewhere close to being true, it is a very good harbinger of what may play out.

In the U.S. media's race to create excitement (excitement/fear = higher ratings), I wonder if this will be reported...or put only on the back page.
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  #367  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:37 AM
DaveVK DaveVK is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Expecting elderly folks to self-manage their environment, minimizing their risk, and maintain safe separation from younger people, perhaps their children and grandchildren, has not proven very realistic in many places.

On the contrary, a significant percentage of elderly people are heavily dependent on younger people.

Whether the younger people have any responsibility for protecting greater society in a pandemic is, a suppose, a philosophical and/or religious matter. (Although legal/enforced measures have been put in effect in some places worldwide).

Probably safe to say that some "not-at-risks" will choose (or already have chosen) one direction; others will choose the other direction.

Such is the nature of people.
The nanny state mentality as a solution is less realistic yet, and its concept and implementation in recent history has in great part led to the hysteria. Country Boy's statements are spot on with my beliefs.

The abuse of government power has run rampant. I'm prepared to sit in jail for contempt of court should I choose to practice Jury Nullification of a trial against natural rights.
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  #368  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:37 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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I want to see this over as soon as possible. And if that means keeping some of the country (mostly) in their homes, GO-FOR-IT (I'm all for this in both CA and NYC and other places if it becomes necessary)...This has absolutely nothing to do with my personal situation, I have processes as discussed above, it has to do with the best for America. We need to get POTUS re-elected, and the sooner this ends the more likely t
What is "best for America" is to for leaders to obey their oath of office, and uphold and defend the Constitution- period. Once you sell out one principle, you forfeit them all.
If you're willing to sacrifice the 1A for a crisis, you've lost any legitimacy in defending the 2A. Its a pretty simple, but absolute, choice : its binary, 0 or 1, black or white, yes or no. You either support the Constitution, all if it, in its entirety, or you do not.

Its not a matter of public health, its a matter of Constitutional law.
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  #369  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:52 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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Originally Posted by DaveVK View Post
The nanny state mentality as a solution is less realistic yet, and its concept and implementation in recent history has in great part led to the hysteria. Country Boy's statements are spot on with my beliefs.

The abuse of government power has run rampant. I'm prepared to sit in jail for contempt of court should I choose to practice Jury Nullification of a trial against natural rights.
Agree. I think you might have read something into my comments that I did not state.

Nowhere did I advocate a government take-over of citizens' rights. I actually concluded by noting that different people will make different decisions.

I believe my comments about lack of self-sufficiency among many of the elderly are also true. Many simply are not self-sufficient due to immobility, dementia, etc. The question of what to do about it doesn't change this truth about many of their circumstances. There are alternatives, including the street, and we can say what we think those people should have done; all of that is fair discussion. But what to do about it or advising what they should have done differently is separate from simply recognizing the existing circumstances.

Just to clarify. No advocacy here for a leftist nanny state. And no votes for any Dem, as their whole party is on the nanny state side of the spectrum.
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  #370  
Old 03-21-2020, 09:59 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
What is "best for America" is to for leaders to obey their oath of office, and uphold and defend the Constitution- period. Once you sell out one principle, you forgot them all.
If you're willing to sacrifice the 1A for a crisis, you've lost any legitimacy in defending the 2A. Its a pretty simple, but absolute, choice : its binary, 0 or 1, black or white, yes or no. You either support the Constitution, all if it, in its entirety, or you do not.

Its not a matter of public health, its a matter of Constitutional law.
Good speech, but not logically congruent.
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  #371  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:07 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
While I'm more on the side of concern and wariness, coronavirus news from China seems to be remarkably upbeat:

https://www.rt.com/news/483707-china...al-infections/

Apparently no or virtually no new cases. Seems hard to believe, but even if it's somewhere close to being true, it is a very good harbinger of what may play out.
It shouldn't be hard to believe at all- this is normal for such events. It smolders for a while, gathers some steam, flares up, and burns out quickly. Its like a small fire with poor air flow and a limited fuel supply...
Its a fairly normal epidemic curve- or social trend curve.
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  #372  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:11 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Good speech, but not logically congruent.
Its quite congruent- either you fully support the Constitution or you do not. It doesn't matter what the "crisis" is, or how many people may die. Take the emotional and panic component away, and all you have is an assault on the Constitution, couched as "public safety ".
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  #373  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:31 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is online now
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Any infringement on the Constitution, including leftists' re-interpretations, must be resolutely guarded against. Few of us here have any beliefs to the contrary.

The conundrum here is not whether to suspend the Constitution; I think instead it is to assess the problematic circumstances, not denying anything, and figuring out what to do about them. Obviously the latter is not such a simple matter (even assessments of the circumstances differ), and there will be differences of opinion as to what should be done and by whom.

One extreme is to do nothing and let nature take care of itself... thinning of the herd so to speak, Darwin's law. The other extreme, which all of us here (I think) clearly oppose, is a government take-over of what we can do in our daily lives.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 03-21-2020 at 10:38 AM.
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  #374  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:36 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Any infringement on the Constitution, including leftists' re-interpretations, must be resolutely guarded against. Few of us here have any beliefs to the contrary.

The conundrum here is not whether to suspend the Constitution; I think instead it is to assess the problematic circumstances, not denying anything, and figuring out what to do about them.

One extreme is to do nothing and let nature take care of itself... thinning of the herd so to speak. The other extreme, which all of us here clearly oppose, is a government take-over of what we can do in our daily lives.
The problem I see, is that far too many here are completely supportive of the government restrictions, in defiance to the Constitution. I don't see too many "clearly opposing" the assault.

The highlight segment above is particularly disturbing. It suggests that "circumstances " dictate our application of the Constitution...
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  #375  
Old 03-21-2020, 10:39 AM
EL Perdido EL Perdido is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
...I don't see too many "clearly opposing" the assault...
What are you personally doing to "clearly oppose" the assault, besides posting about it?
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