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  #1  
Old 01-31-2020, 08:34 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Bushmaster and DPMS dead?

There was no booths at SHOT, websites just link to directly to Remington's website with no products listed, and liquidation outlets are selling parts for both brands at insanely cheap prices (there were $150 complete DPMS uppers the other day). Remington also no longer lists them in their family of brands.

Colt may have stopped production, but their website still lists everything as if they plan to build them at any given moment. Remington seems to be pretending like these brands don't exist at all. Anyone else notice these things?
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:20 AM
Don Flynn Don Flynn is online now
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It's possible. Between Anderson and PSA they seem to have sewed up the bargain brand AR market, and Ruger and S&W have taken the mid range market.

Colt only suspended civilian sales to concentrate on a military order (hopefully). My theory is that memo that leaked wasn't suppose to leak caused the rush on Colt sales when they were sitting on a 3-6 month supply before that. Colt is now waiting to see what happens in November before restarting civilian sales
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:44 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Flynn View Post
It's possible. Between Anderson and PSA they seem to have sewed up the bargain brand AR market, and Ruger and S&W have taken the mid range market.

Colt only suspended civilian sales to concentrate on a military order (hopefully). My theory is that memo that leaked wasn't suppose to leak caused the rush on Colt sales when they were sitting on a 3-6 month supply before that. Colt is now waiting to see what happens in November before restarting civilian sales
Yeah, the guy that leaked the Colt info got fired, so that should tell you a lot. If they were truly virtue signaling, they would've been openly bragged about it, and cleaned their website of all black rifle products.

The problem with DPMS was that when budget names like PSA were growing and using thing like milspec buffer tubes, and chromelined and hammer forged barrels on rifles that cost $400 or less, DPMS was selling commercial spec rifles for nearly double in many cases. Bushmaster had a similar issue. They would throw together a bunch of commercial spec parts and then give it price that was only $200 away from a Colt. Remington tried to rest on the laurels of both companies established reputations, and didn't bother to adjust prices or make changes to justify the price tag.
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  #4  
Old 01-31-2020, 03:31 PM
VoceNoctum VoceNoctum is offline
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Bushmaster and DPMS were great when the market consisted of Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt and DPMS. Even Rock River's addition to the field wasn't horribly damaging.
Then they got bought by the company now called Remington, which basically cut all the value out of them and Marlin and then when sales tumbled they tried to recover.

Now, there's so much competition, there's just no point to the cut-down Bushmaster/ DPMS anymore.

Also, the lawsuit from Sandyhook, I think, was allowed to go to discovery, so maybe they're cutting their losses there too.


I must say, really the one I wish had never gotten bought was Marlin. Prices up, quality down. Never cared much about Remington or Bushmaster and liked DPMS but others have surpassed them as mentioned above by FN.
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2020, 03:41 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Hate to say it, but I reckon Miroku should just pick up the Remington name as well. Might as well have all the classic rifle names operating under the Rising Sun. Lord knows their quality is extremely good and prices are reasonable - two things that Winchester failed at and Remington seems to be trying really hard to fail at also. Damn shame, really.
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2020, 04:07 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
Hate to say it, but I reckon Miroku should just pick up the Remington name as well. Might as well have all the classic rifle names operating under the Rising Sun. Lord knows their quality is extremely good and prices are reasonable - two things that Winchester failed at and Remington seems to be trying really hard to fail at also. Damn shame, really. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://forums.1911forum.com/images/smilies/hrm.gif[/IMG]
Pains me to say at but at least they won't screw it up. Send them colt while we are at it lol
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2020, 07:15 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Pains me to say at but at least they won't screw it up. Send them colt while we are at it lol
Handgun production is verboten in Japan for some reason.

The most consistent American manufacturer seems to be Ruger, but even they have issues.
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Old 01-31-2020, 08:04 PM
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Faawrenchbender Faawrenchbender is offline
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People love cheap crap.......
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2020, 08:09 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by Faawrenchbender View Post
People love cheap crap.......
Bushmaster and DPMS weren't exactly the epitome of value and quality towards the end of their life. My PSA that cost half as much as many of Bushmaster and DPMS rifles has things like a milspec buffer tubes, M16 carrier groups, MPI bolt and works every bit as well. Remington was charging for a rollmark instead a rifle.
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:25 PM
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Windham Weaponry also took a lot of wind out of Bushmaster's sales. After all, they ARE the real Bushmaster anyway.
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:37 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Windham Weaponry also took a lot of wind out of Bushmaster's sales. After all, they ARE the real Bushmaster anyway.
If they ever wanted to buy their name back, now is the chance. I'd buy a new Windham Bushmaster just to support their reunification efforts.

When it comes to the best looking rollmarks, I'd say Colt, Bushmaster, and Sabre Defense (another defunct company) look the best IMO. Remington should've at least kept making stripped Bushmaster lowers.

Last edited by FNHipowerluv; 01-31-2020 at 09:41 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2020, 09:56 PM
Jason D Jason D is offline
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Originally Posted by FNHipowerluv View Post
Bushmaster and DPMS weren't exactly the epitome of value and quality towards the end of their life. My PSA that cost half as much as many of Bushmaster and DPMS rifles has things like a milspec buffer tubes, M16 carrier groups, MPI bolt and works every bit as well. Remington was charging for a rollmark instead a rifle.
Even back a couple years ago, PSA guns consisted of the same damn parts you'd find in many other company's part bins. I have noted though, that PSA has now picked up the ability to machine lowers, uppers, and rifle barrels. Making for some cheaper costing guns.
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  #13  
Old 02-01-2020, 07:32 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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Remington still lists 6 different AR's in 6 different calibers on their website. They just call them "Modern Sporting Rifles". I always believed They bought Bushmaster and DPMS for their manufacturing, not their names. Perhaps we're just now starting to see that shift as everything falls under the Remington brand.
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  #14  
Old 02-01-2020, 08:20 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Remington still lists 6 different AR's in 6 different calibers on their website. They just call them "Modern Sporting Rifles". I always believed They bought Bushmaster and DPMS for their manufacturing, not their names. Perhaps we're just now starting to see that shift as everything falls under the Remington brand.
If they bought them for their manufacturing, they aren't very bright, since they abandoned both the DPMS plant in Saint Cloud, and the Bushmaster plant in Windham (now known as Windham Weaponry).

I wouldn't bet on Remington leaving their brand name wearing MSRs on life support. Bushmaster was a well established name in the AR game, and people gradually stopped buying them, after being presented with other options. A Remington branded rifle would only do worse. Mossberg recently killed off their line of AR rifles for the same reason Remington branded ARs don't sell.

I think Remington might just revert to building poorly machined fudd guns, and handguns that may or may not work. Even with two established AR names in their possession, they managed to fail miserably in the MSR market.
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  #15  
Old 02-01-2020, 09:49 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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Originally Posted by FNHipowerluv View Post
If they bought them for their manufacturing, they aren't very bright, since they abandoned both the DPMS plant in Saint Cloud, and the Bushmaster plant in Windham (now known as Windham Weaponry).

I wouldn't bet on Remington leaving their brand name wearing MSRs on life support. Bushmaster was a well established name in the AR game, and people gradually stopped buying them, after being presented with other options. A Remington branded rifle would only do worse. Mossberg recently killed off their line of AR rifles for the same reason Remington branded ARs don't sell.

I think Remington might just revert to building poorly machined fudd guns, and handguns that may or may not work. Even with two established AR names in their possession, they managed to fail miserably in the MSR market.
They may or may not be very bright, but market saturation for AR's has reared its ugly head to a degree since they purchased them. The shop I work at has had several occasions in the last couple of years to order Remington MSR's for customers in the 308 variety. They are actually quite nice, and clearly DPMS designs. By contrast, in the same time period (actually longer) I can't recall a single customer asking to order a DPMS or Bushmaster. Plenty of Colt, S&W, LWRC, DD, etc. Most AR shoppers tend to turn their nose up on our used DPMS and Bushmaster guns. We always have to price them very low to move them.

I personally feel Remington should have stuck to shotguns and the 700, as they have been the bread and butter of the company. Contrary to popular internet lore, they do know how to make them, the occasional QC slip not withstanding.
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  #16  
Old 02-01-2020, 11:43 AM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
They may or may not be very bright, but market saturation for AR's has reared its ugly head to a degree since they purchased them. The shop I work at has had several occasions in the last couple of years to order Remington MSR's for customers in the 308 variety. They are actually quite nice, and clearly DPMS designs. By contrast, in the same time period (actually longer) I can't recall a single customer asking to order a DPMS or Bushmaster. Plenty of Colt, S&W, LWRC, DD, etc. Most AR shoppers tend to turn their nose up on our used DPMS and Bushmaster guns. We always have to price them very low to move them.

I personally feel Remington should have stuck to shotguns and the 700, as they have been the bread and butter of the company. Contrary to popular internet lore, they do know how to make them, the occasional QC slip not withstanding.
My experience in a gun shop, was that the 700s were decent for the most part, but the 870s sold (especially the Express model) had high failure rates. The plastic magazine followers would bind, the rough chambers would cause FTEs, and sometimes the machining was so bad in the reciever that the cartridge guides would jump out of their recesses, and lock up the gun. Vintage 870s are great, but I lean towards Mossberg for new stuff. There could be a chance my shop got all the lemons, but it was pretty infuriating to see the name of a good gun on the piles of scrap metal I recieved. I hope Remington takes their QC more seriously now.

Last edited by FNHipowerluv; 02-01-2020 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 02-01-2020, 02:23 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is online now
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Was on a pheasant hunt with a guy who had a brand new 870 Express. Out in the field, he shucked the first round from the mag tube into the chamber....and really struggled with it. He kept trying to close the action but just really was struggling with it. I walked over to assist and just as I got there, he gave up and ejected the shell. It landed right in front of me and I picked it up. The shell was literally sliced open down one side, clean through to the wad. Like it had been sliced with a box cutter. What the....??? I showed it to the guy and while he was looking at it, I stuck my finger down into the empty chamber and could feel a massive burr down in there. We took his barrel off and holy crap....here's about a 1/16th inch burr right at the rear of the chamber. Every time the guy would force the bolt closed bit by bit.....that burr was just slicing right through that hull. Never seen anything like it before or since.
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Old 02-02-2020, 07:30 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is online now
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Yeah, the 870 Express, in my experience was/is a budget shotgun that typically needed a bit of de-burring and polishing right out of the box. I think Express referred to them being "expressed" thru production.Lol

More recently we have had quite a few Remingtons come thru that have been quite nice. One is a V3 that I ordered for myself for competition. It has exceeded my expectations, and is nicer than my Benelli M2. Except that green receiver is ugly.

The 700's we have gotten in have all been smooth and trouble free by all accounts of customers who ordered them. A good friend of mine did get a bad one about 3 years ago. Remington was very responsive of his issues. The main issue was accuracy. The outcome was they replaced it with an upgrade of his choice. And his new rifle is a tac driver. I hope Remington has the QC issues behind them, whatever the case may be I believe their working thru them and taking care of customers.
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Last edited by M-Peltier; 02-02-2020 at 07:38 AM.
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  #19  
Old 02-02-2020, 11:43 AM
fnfalman fnfalman is online now
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Winchester rifles had seen great increase in quality since that FN had bought it out a few years back.
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  #20  
Old 02-02-2020, 01:08 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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As for Bushmaster and DPMS.

Buyouts aside. It only stands to reason that with every gun outfit under the sun making AR type rifles. That some of them would fall by the wayside.
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  #21  
Old 02-02-2020, 02:13 PM
FNHipowerluv FNHipowerluv is offline
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Buyouts aside. It only stands to reason that with every gun outfit under the sun making AR type rifles. That some of them would fall by the wayside.
And somehow IWI thought it was a great idea to throw their hat in the ring this year....

I also hear rumors that Olympic Arms is in the process of restarting, but people hate them more than DPMS, so I wouldn't bet on them hanging on much longer.

Unless another panic strikes, it looks like the only ARs that will actually sell are the sub $600 ones. S&W, Ruger, and PSA are massive contenders in this market segment and do well.
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Old 02-02-2020, 03:05 PM
VoceNoctum VoceNoctum is offline
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Originally Posted by FNHipowerluv View Post
Unless another panic strikes, it looks like the only ARs that will actually sell are the sub $600 ones. S&W, Ruger, and PSA are massive contenders in this market segment and do well.
The sub-$600 ones or the $1500+ ones I think, it's the old market of $900 guns that seems to have taken a hit.
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  #23  
Old 02-02-2020, 09:34 PM
Jason D Jason D is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Yeah, the 870 Express, in my experience was/is a budget shotgun that typically needed a bit of de-burring and polishing right out of the box. I think Express referred to them being "expressed" thru production.Lol

More recently we have had quite a few Remingtons come thru that have been quite nice. One is a V3 that I ordered for myself for competition. It has exceeded my expectations, and is nicer than my Benelli M2. Except that green receiver is ugly.

The 700's we have gotten in have all been smooth and trouble free by all accounts of customers who ordered them. A good friend of mine did get a bad one about 3 years ago. Remington was very responsive of his issues. The main issue was accuracy. The outcome was they replaced it with an upgrade of his choice. And his new rifle is a tac driver. I hope Remington has the QC issues behind them, whatever the case may be I believe their working thru them and taking care of customers.
Remington still had some people working for them that could build a gun that wasn't a turd. I had hope they would turn around, but no real faith they would.

They could still produce a decent 870 if you bought the police model.
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  #24  
Old 02-02-2020, 10:21 PM
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I recently built a couple of ARs with PSA uppers/build kits and "poverty pony" lowers. The only thing I did to beef them up was add AO Precision BCGs. I can tell you that they will easily run with my Colts even if the fit of the uppers and lowers isn't as good. Considering I put them both together for about the same price as a single Colt 6920 I have no complaints. The overwhelming number of AR buyers are just weekend plinkers, and they don't want to spend more than $600 for a rifle if they don't have to.
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Old 02-03-2020, 02:18 AM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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I recently built a couple of ARs with PSA uppers/build kits and "poverty pony" lowers. The only thing I did to beef them up was add AO Precision BCGs. I can tell you that they will easily run with my Colts even if the fit of the uppers and lowers isn't as good. Considering I put them both together for about the same price as a single Colt 6920 I have no complaints. The overwhelming number of AR buyers are just weekend plinkers, and they don't want to spend more than $600 for a rifle if they don't have to.

I believe you are correct about the number of buyers not using their ARs all that often.

If one of the lower-priced ARs has an issue with a part breaking. There are quite a few companies out there that sell pretty decent replacement parts and they are not really very expensive. So if a problem arises it should not take a lot of effort to take care of.

Of course, I am no expert. But most of the parts that I see for ARs seem to be pretty good now days. There were companies that made inferior parts in the past. But I never see them them anymore. ymmv
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