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  #1  
Old 09-23-2019, 12:42 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Having a Concealed Carry Permit doesn't make you a LEO

This is sad and didn't need to happen:
Concealed Carry Permit holder killed by robber

The bad guy gets the drop on the good guy and robs him of his "stuff", probably wallet and phone. Then instead of getting out of there, the guy follows the bad guys into the store they want to rob and engages them, getting killed and killing one of the bad guys.

Why did he follow the bad guys into the store over his "stuff", which obviously didn't include his carry piece? Get the heck out of there and get the cops involved. The guy probably got mad and said "I'll be d*mned if I'll be a robery victim". So now he's dead.

Your CCL doesn't make you a LEO.
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2019, 12:56 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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A seriously bad decision.

The guy should have gotten clear and called the PoPos.
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  #3  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:17 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Just one example of too many John McClains I see on these sites.

Live and learn.
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  #4  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:26 AM
Kodadek Kodadek is offline
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Sad but true...you have a lot of people with Threeper decals and that idiot Sheepdog mentality out there.

I love to point out how in Saint Cloud MN, there was a knife attack in the mall. I know there had to be guys and gals carrying despite the signs banning guns in the premises...was the attacker foiled by a brave armed citizen or a plucky sporting goods store employee armed with a baseball bat? Negative...an off duty officer plugged him...all the folks with concealed carry permits fled instead of standing tall and taking on the threat head on.

My place of work had it's annual active shooter training, and some idiot babbled about running to his car where he kept his legally stored Firearm and going to confront am unknown number of armed assailants with a G43 and a spare mag. Having been infantry and having contracted for DHS I was tempted to tell him he was an idiot; however, in my experience this just emboldens blowhard wannabes with delusions of adequacy and hero complexes.

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  #5  
Old 11-06-2019, 05:45 AM
DD1911 DD1911 is offline
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One of the things I taught in my CCW classes was to "know your mission". As an LEO, my mission was to halt crimes and take people into custody. Now that I am a civilian, my mission is to force a break in contact.

Use your firearm to force the break in contact. Whether you have to fire or the bad guy runs away when he sees it, mission accomplished. Then call the cops, and let them take if from there.
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  #6  
Old 01-21-2020, 09:50 PM
tully_mars tully_mars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD1911 View Post
One of the things I taught in my CCW classes was to "know your mission". As an LEO, my mission was to halt crimes and take people into custody. Now that I am a civilian, my mission is to force a break in contact.

Use your firearm to force the break in contact. Whether you have to fire or the bad guy runs away when he sees it, mission accomplished. Then call the cops, and let them take if from there.
This is one of the best ways to say it. Myself as an instructor I also teach the same philosophy. Your firearm is there to help you survive and escape. Without the mandate of the law behind you, you are just opening yourself up for a criminal problem on top of the civil action.
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  #7  
Old 01-22-2020, 04:58 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Good point, it is called self-(defense) not self-offense. Someone can come in one's house rape one's wife, leave (without the wife :-0) and one still can't use deadly force to stop him if he is trying to flee without presenting a further deadly threat to the homeowner.

It is the law like it or not.
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  #8  
Old 01-22-2020, 11:48 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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I do not fully agree with the opinions expressed so far. Because making a SET policy, about VARIABLE situations is illogical.

If a clean, safe shot on an obvious assailant presents itself, I'll take it.

And if that's not the situation, I won't.

There's no way I'm going to pre-decide on any action, or inaction, pertaining to an unknown event.

Sometimes a quarterback sees a clean opportunity to run with the ball. Damn right he takes it.
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  #9  
Old 01-22-2020, 12:43 PM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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I've had my carry permit for 26 years now and only ever touched my pistol once because I thought I was going to have to draw. Turned out I didn't and I was glad of it.

My first priority will always be to protect myself, my family, and friends should the necessity ever arise. And I truly hope it never does.

But I absolutely HATE active shooters who take innocent lives. If I were in an active shooter event, and not in the direct line of fire, I'd certainly assess the situation to determine whether I could get involved and possibly stop the attacker. To do otherwise means that more and more innocent moms, dads, kids, grandparents, etc. die.

I'm not a vet, I have no delusions of being a hero, and I pray I never have to draw my weapon, because that will mean my life is in immediate jeopardy. But I'll be damned if I'd flee a scene and just let innocent folks be slaughtered.
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  #10  
Old 01-22-2020, 01:08 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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f1racefan---------- Agreed. I also see the "me & mine only" concept as distasteful.

Prioritizing the people entrusted to your care is appropriate. But disregarding anyone, and everyone outside of your circle, to me, is bad form.
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  #11  
Old 01-22-2020, 01:16 PM
Shawn6518 Shawn6518 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Good point, it is called self-(defense) not self-offense. Someone can come in one's house rape one's wife, leave (without the wife :-0) and one still can't use deadly force to stop him if he is trying to flee without presenting a further deadly threat to the homeowner.

It is the law like it or not.
. Combat auto, please speak for yourself and your state, my state (ga) I have every right to plug their sorry ass for doing exactly what you stated. We have the castle doctrine we don't have to retreat. If he's harming my wife in my house and I pop him hopping my fence, I have every right to use deadly force. Any time a forceable felony is committed I have every right to use deadly force. Even if the perp is retreating. Example, a guy in my town was robbed at gunpoint for his wallet. Guy hands over wallet and as he turns to run, popped twice in the back. Was a justified shooting, the victim never even was placed in cuffs. His wife drove him to the PD for a written statement, video footage pulled from the restaurant (In which they were in the parking lot) it matched his story. So not all states are alike on SD laws.
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  #12  
Old 01-22-2020, 02:31 PM
kwo51 kwo51 is offline
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The castle law is being questioned here in florida because to many blacks are getting shot. I can't run so I will fight. It is not far when the good guy can shoot back is their argument.
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  #13  
Old 01-22-2020, 02:53 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Shawn6518------You are mistaken. Imminent Threat is requirement for lawful self-defense in GA.

A fleeing perp does not qualify.
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  #14  
Old 01-22-2020, 08:18 PM
cwo4uscgret cwo4uscgret is offline
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Thirty years active duty military; 10-1/2 years federal law enforcement; long time gun owner.

When I went through FLTEC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center) it was drilled into us that in an off-duty situation sometimes our "duty" was to become the best witness possible. In other words, use sound judgment to "not" engage, especially with multiple threats.

I am no longer a federal law enforcement officer; I am no longer a Coast Guard CWO4 - I am retired from both services. I do carry concealed under LEOSA (Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act) and keep an active contact with my local Law Enforcement Agencies but I do not go forth and look for trouble to engage in. I will defend my wife and I with a firearm(s); I do not own anything that can not be replaced so unless there is a real threat of physical harm I won't shoot you in the back as you run down the street with my big screen TV - I will however very weakly yell to my dog to disengage her teeth from your leg!

Based on all my training and experiences I know how I will respond to a situation requiring the use of deadly force; if you carry concealed and do not know how you will respond you may either want to rethink carrying a firearm or seek additional training.

Carrying a firearm comes with a huge burden of responsibility. Knowing when to shoot or don't shoot, aka judgmental shooting, should be be taught to anyone who makes the decision to carry. Had it been in the case of this victim he may not have became a victim. Just my opinion!
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  #15  
Old 01-23-2020, 10:21 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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I strongly recommend that if you are going to carry that you learn the self-defense laws in your state. It's worrisome what some folks think is okay.
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  #16  
Old 01-23-2020, 10:36 AM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
f1racefan---------- Agreed. I also see the "me & mine only" concept as distasteful.

Prioritizing the people entrusted to your care is appropriate. But disregarding anyone, and everyone outside of your circle, to me, is bad form.
Distasteful as it may sound to you, I'm a "me & mine only" person all the way. Everyone has the same ability to provide for their self defense as I do. The fact that they haven't taken advantage of that ability is not my problem. I'm not about to get into a civil, and perhaps even legal, jam because they failed to take advantage of the SD ability they're provided.
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  #17  
Old 01-23-2020, 11:33 AM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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borderboss1--------- So no rescues for people who should have taken swimming classes?

No free aspirin for heart attack patients who should have exercised more / had better diets?

No help with house fires? (nearly all are preventable)

I ask because nearly every emergency people experience can be traced back to some poor choice / neglect/ mistake / oversight on their part.

Hey, I cannot argue against self-preservation. Humans & animals could not exist without it.

But are you really saying that you would not risk anything, ever, to save a stranger's life ?
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  #18  
Old 01-23-2020, 01:20 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Right better hold off on tossing that life ring in the pool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
borderboss1--------- So no rescues for people who should have taken swimming classes?
But are you really saying that you would not risk anything, ever, to save a stranger's life ?
Better to save it in case one of your people needs it.
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  #19  
Old 01-23-2020, 01:53 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
borderboss1--------- So no rescues for people who should have taken swimming classes?

No free aspirin for heart attack patients who should have exercised more / had better diets?

No help with house fires? (nearly all are preventable)

I ask because nearly every emergency people experience can be traced back to some poor choice / neglect/ mistake / oversight on their part.

Hey, I cannot argue against self-preservation. Humans & animals could not exist without it.

But are you really saying that you would not risk anything, ever, to save a stranger's life ?
MM, your analogies are silly on their face. All of the things you are describing are accidents where there is no third party causation.

In the case of protecting someone from a third party attacking them, I'm not going to open myself up to the third party or the third party's family suing me for stopping the third party from the attack.

Before you continue your silliness, yes, the house fire could be caused by a third party who is an arsonist. They can feel free to sue me for stopping the fire they illegally started.

Feel free to try again, but think harder next time.
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Old 01-23-2020, 02:19 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Borderboss1------- Okay, let's remove analogies altogether. Scenario:

You see a bloody elderly woman getting stomped & beaten by two young men.

Are you going to do nothing but call / wait for police because of legal concerns? And because the grandmother had every opportunity to obtain a gun & skillset?

You can say yes, but I don't believe it. I think you would act to help her. It's basic human nature.

Now to you LEAN towards the side of deferring to LE? I think so. THAT I believe. But to watch someone die out of legal self-preservation, I don't think many fully-capable people could do that.
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  #21  
Old 01-23-2020, 02:21 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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There is also another type of self-preservation. Ya still gotta live with yourself & what you did & didn't do.
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  #22  
Old 01-23-2020, 04:01 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Borderboss1------- Okay, let's remove analogies altogether. Scenario:

You see a bloody elderly woman getting stomped & beaten by two young men.

Are you going to do nothing but call / wait for police because of legal concerns? And because the grandmother had every opportunity to obtain a gun & skillset?

You can say yes, but I don't believe it. I think you would act to help her. It's basic human nature.

Now to you LEAN towards the side of deferring to LE? I think so. THAT I believe. But to watch someone die out of legal self-preservation, I don't think many fully-capable people could do that.
Feel free to think what you like. I'm not going to fall into the trap of debating a keyboard warrior.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:17 PM
7.62Kolectr 7.62Kolectr is offline
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In Florida one can shoot somebody in their homes whether or not they are facing them or have their back turned. If that person is an intruder itís already assumed they are a threat and no questions need be asked of them. If they have already committed a crime and are hopping a fence than it becomes REALLY murky. Technically they would be a fleeing felon and deadly force is authorized but I wouldnít exercise it.
Having said that on the case at hand itís possible it could have been averted if he had drawn his gun and fired instead of drawn his wallet and turned it over.
Ok that was a bit of a comfortable comment from my sofa. I wasnít there and I donít know the situation. But if the guy got robbed clean and was still in one piece afterward I think the most he should have done or what I would have done is call the police and try to keep them under observation until the cops arrived. We are however commenting from the comfort of our screens and not in the heat of the moment.
How would one of us feel if after we got robbed the two perps entered said store and we heard gunfire only to later learn one or more people got shot in the second immediate robbery? That would kinda bother me. Not sure what one could do other than what he did to prevent that?
Sticky and sad situation it sounds like for sure. In the end I guess Iíd rather go home to my family and talk about how I got robbed and another store clerk got killed instead of having my family at my funeral because I followed the robbers into said store and confronted them.
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Old 01-23-2020, 04:50 PM
warbird1 warbird1 is offline
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Feel free to think what you like. I'm not going to fall into the trap of debating a keyboard warrior.
I guess there are keyboard warriors and keyboard cowards.
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  #25  
Old 01-23-2020, 04:59 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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I think it's good to consider possible situations and your possible responses to them ahead of time. I think most of us have.

Given a 50/50 balanced "should I do something or not?" situation, my inclination is to act. To help. I lean in that direction.

If that makes me a keyboard warrior, fine. I'll take that label.

--------- 7.62 \Kolectr------------ No, I don't think you could legally shoot your Fleeing Felon. Florida Statute 776.07 addresses that. It appears to be written to allow LE personnel to prevent escape by arrested suspects.

Now one could try to stretch that into a Citizen's Arrest scenario but the fence-jumping rapist spoken of was not described as having been arrested or detained.

So if you're going by 776.07, no, you cannot shoot him.

Of course if there was someone at great risk standing directly in his path that could possibly be Imminent Threat, allowing use of deadly force.

This law stuff is a sticky mess.
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