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  #1  
Old 01-01-2020, 11:43 AM
passx passx is offline
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Trigger locking back in the fired position

Ok guy’s I have a relatively new Kimber 6” longslide .45 target that I just put a Fusion short, smoothfaced trigger in, I’ve put several in other guns as well (no troubles at all) but this one is giving me troubles.

The last 2 range sessions when I fire the 1st shot the gun shoots and cycles but the trigger is locked in the fired position. The first time It would require I used a Squibb rod to Clear the gun & knock the slide back , I took it home and found when I green loctited the overtravel screw it must have run under the bottom of the shoe and the trigger did not cycle freely, cleaned everything and it cycled freely again.

Back to the range again yesterday & had basically the same result although I could drop the mag and now cycle the slide by hand to clear things, which would reset the trigger, reinsert the mag & chamber another round with the same result with the trigger locked in the fired position.

Took it all apart last night and found the trigger bow was slightly bent into the mag, so I used my Brownells trigger bow fixture to straighten it out and closely went over everything to make sure everything is deburred (black marker) and the trigger falls freely in & out.


So my question is,,,,, am I missing anything ??? Or should I be checking/looking at anything else ?

Last edited by passx; 01-01-2020 at 11:47 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:01 PM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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Look at the underside of the grip safety's arm to see if the back of the trigger bow is getting wedged under it. If it is, a little judicious filing to create clearance is indicated.
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  #3  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:12 PM
Bob Rockefeller Bob Rockefeller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
Ok guyís I have a relatively new Kimber 6Ē longslide .45 target that I just put a Fusion short, smoothfaced trigger in, Iíve put several in other guns as well (no troubles at all) but this one is giving me troubles.
Does your Kimber have a firing pin safety? I'm not familiar with how they work, but could its mechanism be interfering with the new trigger?
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  #4  
Old 01-01-2020, 01:26 PM
passx passx is offline
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Bob, this one’s a simple series 70 1911.

Steve, I noticed a few shiny spots last night on the bottom of the grip safety, I did file it a little and I think that I’ll blue/magic marker it to verify clearance. Is there’s tissue with adding to much clearance on the bottom of the grip safety ?

One thing I noticed last night is that the tip of the hammer is also rubbing on the disconnector ramp and I’m going down to clearance that now.

I think I should add that dry firing the gun, it always works fine. This only seems to happen under actual firing conditions.

Last edited by passx; 01-01-2020 at 01:29 PM.
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  #5  
Old 01-01-2020, 02:08 PM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is online now
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When the magazine is in the gun, the release holds it to one side. I would make sure the trigger falls on itís own weight with a bare frame and magazine inserted.

David
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  #6  
Old 01-01-2020, 02:10 PM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
Steve, I noticed a few shiny spots last night on the bottom of the grip safety, I did file it a little and I think that I’ll blue/magic marker it to verify clearance.
Let me be perfectly clear on the location to inspect. There is an "arm" that projects forward from the body of the grip safety. The end of that "arm" contacts the trigger bow to prevent it from moving unless the grip safety is depressed. The rear of the trigger bow passes beneath this arm as the trigger is pressed. It's possible that when the trigger is pulled fully to the rear that the rear of the bow can become wedged under the angle formed by the "arm".

I'm not talking about the area of the grip safety that is immediately adjacent to and above the mainspring housing.

Quote:
Is there’s tissue with adding to much clearance on the bottom of the grip safety ?
As with most things related to fitting 1911 parts, remember the Goldilocks rule (not too much, not too little, just right). File a little, check the fit. Repeat as necessary. Having said that, the "arm" does not experience heavy forces so you have a pretty wide margin within which to work.

Quote:
One thing I noticed last night is that the tip of the hammer is also rubbing on the disconnector ramp and I’m going down to clearance that now.
Be careful. The hammer should be in contact with the slide's disconnector rail so it will be cocked. I flatten the top of my hammers so the contact area between the hammer and the disconnector rail is as wide as possible. I also reduce the amount of over-cocking to a minimum but I do insure there is still a little over-cocking present.

Last edited by Steve in Allentown; 01-01-2020 at 02:39 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-01-2020, 06:39 PM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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One picture is worth a thousand words so to be absolutely, positively clear here's a picture.

Nothing is to scale.

The dotted blue line represents the position of the trigger bow when it's in its rearmost position.

The area I'm trying to describe is at the intersection of surface "A" and surface "B" at the red circle.

Normally the rearward movement of the trigger is stopped by contacting surface "A" or contact between the over-travel screw and the mag catch.

Surface "B" is actually slightly angled such that the forward portion is higher than the rear portion. Sometimes a new trigger's dimensions will not match those of the OEM trigger that came with the pistol. This can result in the trigger bow contacting surface "B" as the trigger is pulled all the way back until it stops. This contact can be hard enough to cause the trigger bow to be jammed in place. If this happens, the grip safety will not be able to rotate back into position if you remove your hand and the trigger will not return forward.

The fix is to file surface "B" to eliminate contact with the new trigger bow.

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  #8  
Old 01-01-2020, 07:54 PM
passx passx is offline
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Steve, I knew where you were talking about but it’s ok to treat it like I didn’t. I think you hit the nail on the head so to speak as the corner of my grip safety arm where a & b meet has/had a radius vs the square corner you show. MIM part.

When I worked on it last night surface “B” had some gouges that I cleaned up but I went back tonight and took everything back apart and and REALLY looked at it under my big magnifying glass and I noticed some galling in the corner between A & B. I cleaned everything up and blued the parts and I think I got it.

It is a bit odd I think that it would only occur under real fire conditions but not at all with dry fire.

On the hammer I filed a flat on the top where it starts to loop and now it just contacts the firing pin stop but doesn’t drag on the disconnector ramp anymore .

I hope to take it back to the range tomorrow so I’ll report back when I get home but I think you were right, thanks !

Last edited by passx; 01-01-2020 at 08:00 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:00 PM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
Steve, I knew where you were talking about but itís ok to treat it like I didnít.
I thought I wasn't being clear enough in my explanation and wanted to be sure I wasn't causing confusion. From your past posts I know you know your way around a 1911. Misunderstandings like this are one of the challenges of communicating via text instead of face-to-face.
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  #10  
Old 01-01-2020, 09:02 PM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
It is a bit odd I think that it would only occur under real fire conditions but not at all with dry fire.
It may be due to the additional forces in play during recoil which may be causing more finger pressure being applied to the trigger.
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  #11  
Old 01-02-2020, 07:34 AM
passx passx is offline
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Thanks again Steve, I always appreciate your inputs. When you mentioned the grip safety it was a “a-ha” moment, I knew that it was probably the problem. Sometimes I have a problem seeing the forest for all the trees in the way thing, ��

My buddy & I are going to the range in a bit and if I clearanced things enough (small steps) it should work.

This Kimber has been a challenge as the quality is lacking on this gun with some things done pretty well and other things absolutely horrible. I realize that this particular problem is because I replaced the trigger but I did it trying to improve the accuracy a bit.

I do better with a short smooth faced trigger vs the oe long serrated face trigger which I tend to move around more.

The excessive clearances in the barrel bushing and the barrel link really compromised the accuracy a bunch, a call to George @ EGW has fixed most of that and the trigger should help a bit as well.

Anyway as I said I do appreciate your inputs, it’s always a help, thx
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  #12  
Old 01-02-2020, 09:03 AM
seagiant seagiant is offline
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Hi,
I had a problem where Steve describes it.

Mine was the grip safety worked fine firing the pistol...

But when you had the hammer cocked and wanted to decock the hammer the grip safety would then rub the trigger bow and not work.

I took the slide off got a good flashlight and could then see as well as feel the problem.

Did not want to over cut the grip safety of course.
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  #13  
Old 01-02-2020, 12:30 PM
passx passx is offline
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Steve, all I’ll say is, thankyou,thankyou, thankyou. The gun worked perfectly and shot as well as the shooter could, very happy ! Thankyou !
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Old 01-02-2020, 12:42 PM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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Nice work finding the contact point and relieving it! I love happy endings.
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  #15  
Old 01-02-2020, 09:38 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
...
On the hammer I filed a flat on the top where it starts to loop and now it just contacts the firing pin stop but doesnít drag on the disconnector ramp anymore .
...
If I understand, the bottom of the firing pin stop was descending below the disconnector rail?

And the hammer is now being cocked by the firing pin stop, and not touching the disconnector rail while the slide is back?

If so, you should have fit the bottom of the firing pin stop flush with the disconnector rail. If the firing pin stop is ever replaced with a properly fitted part, the gun will fail to cock the hammer by cycling the slide manually, and possibly while firing also.

The hammer must be in contact with the disconnector rail to cock the hammer. It's not the job of the firing pin stop alone.

When lowering the slide manually, can you feel the firing pin stop catch on the hammer as it moves forward?

-

Last edited by megafiddle; 01-02-2020 at 09:43 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-02-2020, 11:17 PM
log man log man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megafiddle View Post
If I understand, the bottom of the firing pin stop was descending below the disconnector rail?

And the hammer is now being cocked by the firing pin stop, and not touching the disconnector rail while the slide is back?

If so, you should have fit the bottom of the firing pin stop flush with the disconnector rail. If the firing pin stop is ever replaced with a properly fitted part, the gun will fail to cock the hammer by cycling the slide manually, and possibly while firing also.

The hammer must be in contact with the disconnector rail to cock the hammer. It's not the job of the firing pin stop alone.

When lowering the slide manually, can you feel the firing pin stop catch on the hammer as it moves forward?

-
The stuck trigger, trapped by the grip safety is fixed. But agree the statement about the hammer being solely cocked by the Firing pin stop, and no longer contacting the rail is confusing as a correctly fit hammer most definitely drags under spring tension on the rail. If relived too much it will only cock under live fire when the side has greater speed...most the time...maybe.

LOG
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:31 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
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Passx, the next time you detail strip the gun inspect the top rear surface of the trigger bow. I have a hunch the bow may need some deburring. The blocking arm worked fine with the OE trigger, true? At least you only changed one component...I blew myself into the ditch by changing the trigger AND the safety at the same time. Took quite a while to get the pair comfortable and correct the trigger hangup.
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  #18  
Old 01-04-2020, 11:11 AM
passx passx is offline
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Sorry guy’s for not replying sooner, been working and very busy and feel privledged to have you guy’s take time to comment on my problem.

Anyway, joe, the last time I had it apart to clearance the grip safety I did check the trigger shoe (again) and the bow (again) for burrs, especially where it contacted the grip safety and indeed it had some burring there. So I did spend a lot of time to ensure things were slick as a babies bottom as I didn’t want to have to do this again. Thx !

As far as the trigger dragging on the disconnector rail goes I’m a bit confused as I thought cocking the hammer was done by the firing pin stop and the profile of the firing pin stop controlled the slide speed. I will add that the FPS on my Kimber does indeed protrude slightly below the disconnector rail.

That all said I would add that I think my hammer still has some marking in the bluing on the disc. Rail but it is light, I would say it’s probably less than .0005in clearance if that. I’m going to look at that closely when I clean it this morning.

I’ll say that I don’t see the point of having the hammer drag on the rail which on this Kimber was quite heavy an only on one side of the rail So long as the FPS cocks the hammer is anything gained by having it drag the rail, I don’t see the point so please feel free to enlighten me why this should be.

On my Kimber as a matter of final checks after taking things completely down like this I always check all the safeties for proper function and work the slide at various speeds including a very slow racking to monitor that the hammer gets fully cocked and the trigger always properly resets no matter of the slide speed as well as check that the slide always goes fully into battery. I do realize that I can’t rack The slide like it does under fire conditions.

I realize that I can fit a new hammer if need be but quite frankly I’m not sure why.

So what am I missing here ?

Last edited by passx; 01-04-2020 at 11:15 AM.
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  #19  
Old 01-04-2020, 11:43 AM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is online now
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Trigger locking back in the fired position

Hammer is supposed to drag on the disconnecter rail.
Log Man said it a few posts earlier.

I had a Colt that had a rough grip safety where it contacts the trigger now. I could hold the trigger back, let go of the grip safety and the trigger would not return until I presses the grip safety. Just cleaned it up. Problem resolved.


David

Last edited by david_root2000; 01-04-2020 at 11:46 AM.
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  #20  
Old 01-04-2020, 11:45 AM
Steve in Allentown Steve in Allentown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
As far as the trigger dragging on the disconnector rail goes I’m a bit confused as I thought cocking the hammer was done by the firing pin stop and the profile of the firing pin stop controlled the slide speed. I will add that the FPS on my Kimber does indeed protrude slightly below the disconnector rail.
The hammer should drag on the disconnector rail evenly across its width and with as much surface area contact as possible between the two consistent with solid contact between the hammer and the firing pin.

Even though the hammer is typically over-cocked by the time it clears the firing pin stop as the slide moves rearward, the hammer should still be slightly over-cocked as it is in contact with the disconnector rail to ensure no malfunctions.

A firing pin stop that extends below the disconnector rail will interfere with the hammer as the slide comes forward. That interference can be a speed bump or a full stop depending on the profile of the hammer and firing pin stop. Ideally, the bottom surface of the firing pin stop and the disconnector rail will be perfectly in line with one another.

Last edited by Steve in Allentown; 01-04-2020 at 01:07 PM.
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  #21  
Old 01-04-2020, 08:23 PM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passx View Post
...
As far as the trigger dragging on the disconnector rail goes Iím a bit confused as I thought cocking the hammer was done by the firing pin stop and the profile of the firing pin stop controlled the slide speed. I will add that the FPS on my Kimber does indeed protrude slightly below the disconnector rail.
...
The firing pin stop does cock the hammer, but only in the sense that it does all the work.

The hammer must be in an overcocked position while the slide is back. This insures that the sear will engage the hammer under any and all conditions. It's not enough for the hammer to just barely reach the cocked position. This would leave no margin to allow for wear, dirt, etc.

It is the disconnector rail to hammer geometry that sets the amount of overcock. The disconnector rail holds the hammer beyond the cocked position, with plenty of clearance between the sear nose and hammer hooks.

When the slide moves forward enough to release contact with the hammer, the hammer will rotate forward slightly and settle into engagement with the sear.

In addition to retaining the firing pin and extractor, the firing pin stop also functions as an end cap on the disconnector rail. It extends, and adds a radius to the bottom end of the rail. The firing pin stop is supposed to fit flush with the disconnector rail. It needs to smoothly hand off control of the hammer to the rail without any discontinuities. There should be no steps or bumps.

Had you clearanced the hammer as you did with a different gun, you could have easily found that the hammer would no longer remain cocked while cycling. You may also find that to be the case if you ever replace the firing pin stop on this gun.

Your gun works because there is enough hammer left to allow overcocking by the protruding firing pin stop. But it's not the job of the firing pin stop to control overcocking. That's the job of the disconnector rail. The firing pin stop should only be a smooth extension of the rail.

The bottom edge of a large radius firing pin stop can also be very thin. If it protrudes below the bottom of the disconnector rail, it will wear abnormally as it runs into the hammer when the slide moves forward.

Have you tried slowly easing the slide forward? Does it catch on the hammer?

-
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  #22  
Old 01-04-2020, 08:38 PM
log man log man is offline
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It may appear that the firing pin stop is hanging below the rail, but believe if you push it up it isn't. Kimber uses the worst choice choice of the four firing pin stop configurations, for an S70 45 it should only have the ejector notch, and match the rail width, they use an undersize, S80 9mm/38sup firing pin stop in every model regardless. First thing to trash from a new Kimber. The rest is pretty good.

LOG
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:17 PM
Magnumite Magnumite is online now
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I would suggest checking the top of the disconnector paddle to sear legs clearance during cycling. It is possible if clearance is inadequate the disco will get stalled when the disco spring leaf pushes it forward. Check also for disco bind in its hole in the frame.

Also, the trigger side of the blocking arm on the grip safety may be thick, causing the trigger to bind and rub. Shiny spots will be apparent on the side of the arm.

The frame may also have a high spot on the right side of the grip safety cutout in the frame. This would cause a bind or possibly cause bind pushing the grip safety to the left
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Last edited by Magnumite; 01-04-2020 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 01-05-2020, 07:01 AM
Jolly Rogers Jolly Rogers is offline
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As Steve mentioned, the tip of the hammer should ride the disco rail. As the recoil causes the hammer to cock, the hammer, being spring loaded, will rebound impact the disco rail after it contacts the grip safety. If it point loads the rail impact due to the hammer tip radius, it can cause peening of the rail. The thin section of the rail on series 80 models near the firing pin plunger is very vulnerable to this. The hammer should be fit with a flat that spreads the impact at this point to prevent the peening of the rail. The flat should be fit with complete contact with the rail but only large enough to allow the required over-cocking necessary for reliability.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:26 AM
passx passx is offline
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Ok guy’s, I think I get it now. But I’ll add that as long as the FPS extends to the bottom of the disco rail or slightly below it that the hammer riding the rail should not provide any more hammer cocking, unless of course the FPS is shorter than the rail.

Checking my Kimber I can see a rub mark on the hammer tip/flat that I filed and reblued. The contact point is light but it is across the entire tip vs the only right side 1/3 really hard hit it did have. I did work the slide slowly back & forth to feel for the action there and quite frankly the only bump in it is from the slide going forward and contacting the disconnector (possible disco ramp in the future) otherwise the gun works pretty smooth.

Logman I remember reading here a number of times about the “quality” of the Kimber FPS which is a fairly cheap & easy fix. I need to pull the extractor anyway because shell cases which have a slightly large/thicker rim tend to hang up occasionally under the extractor, so a little “steve-in-Allentown” extractor work is in the future here & fitting good FPS at that time would be time well spent.

As a side note that while I do like this Kimber longslide comparing it to my springfields & Sig’s shows some things done well like the slide to frame fit is really good as is the barrel hood to slide is really good, but things like the barrel bushing to barrel fit of .009in and the same clearance of the bushing to slide. The barrel link to pin had .012in clearance which all this added up to very erratic accuracy. Add in that the pivot pin at the font of the rear adjustable sight had nearly .020in clearance at the outside pivot points. All very disappointing. But fixing it all has given me a pretty good & very accurate, fun Gun. There’s a little more in it but it is an ongoing “project” , ,,,, again thanks for all your inputs guy’s, you are the best !

Last edited by passx; 01-05-2020 at 08:58 AM.
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