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  #26  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:51 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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I dare say everybody looks at the overall.
Isn't beating somebody with a fancier gun the goal?
  #27  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:22 AM
SG29736 SG29736 is offline
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I've been seeing some long time shooters shooting pcc for a change of pace. But the new shooters I've been seeing start with pcc and I doubt they'll ever compete with a handgun when they realize how much they'll likely drop in the overall. To be near the top in any division is difficult but pcc is an easier way to move up some spots in the overall.
  #28  
Old 12-06-2019, 09:03 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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IDPA and Pistol Caliber Carbines

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If your going to quit shooting IDPA because you got your feelings hurt by someone shooting a PCC,
No my feelings are not hurt....so thank you for your sarcastic remark. It is because the PCC is not a level playing field with pistols, and does not follow the original reason why IDPA was founded.....

A PCC is essentially a short barreled rifle using a pistol round...…So for IDPA, it is shooting a rifle in a pistol match.....

A PCC can not be easily concealed, so in IDPA they start with the weapon shouldered and muzzle pointing down....

A PCC shooter does not draw from concealment using a holster.....

A PCC with a thirty round mag usually does not need to make a magazine change on most stage designs......

A PCC generally has a longer sight radius, and if a reflex optic sight is used, this is a major advantage over a pistol especially on long shots of 35 or more yards....

Yet most clubs group all PCC shooters showing High Overall scores along with the pistol shooters....to me, this does not make sense.....

There are ways to mitigate the advantages of using a PCC, such as having them start with a maximum of 10 + 1 rounds in the gun.....do not allow suppressors, and perhaps only allow PCC's with iron sights.....

However, my disappointment with all of the quibbling and arguing about the rules and the stage designs in IDPA has been brewing for a while, and the addition of allowing short barreled rifles used in a competitive pistol match means I may no longer shoot IDPA. I simply have more fun with other shooting sports.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-06-2019 at 09:07 AM.
  #29  
Old 12-06-2019, 10:05 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Quote:
I simply have more fun with other shooting sports
Such as?
I consider USPSA to be equally afflicted, even though as Tom points out, it doesn't have "pistol" in the logo. If 32 shots are keweler than 18, the PCC user doesn't care, he has a 40 shot magazine.

I see attendance down at the smaller clubs either type. The larger places seem to be holding their own.

I am going to one of those "I am smarter than Bill Wilson" shoots tomorrow. It reads a lot like second year IDPA with speed reloads but we are assured that it is not choreographed to require everybody to shoot the same way. It has not spread beyond the designer's home range.

I note that the Blue Press regularly plugs a "less complicated" shoot that has several locations in the northwest. There is an offshoot in the south that has the most complicated target and scoring I have seen.
  #30  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:06 AM
markm markm is offline
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I would say that people need something/somewhere to compete with their PCCs. I don't know if it's a "thing" or not but my club has started having Two Gun matches where you use a pistol and PCC, haven't shot one yet but actually sounds fun.
  #31  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:47 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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I understand the logic, PCC is hoped to be a growth area.

I wonder if there will be a widespread move to organize the AR "pistol" owners.
USPSA and IDPA specifically disallow them; although I have seen some MDs look the other way to get their business.

I see a bit of two gun and am surprised there is not more. Sustained fire with a shotgun is a bit of a circus trick and there are a lot of people who don't want to be bothered.
  #32  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:00 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post

There are ways to mitigate the advantages of using a PCC, such as having them start with a maximum of 10 + 1 rounds in the gun.....do not allow suppressors, and perhaps only allow PCC's with iron sights.....
Why would you want to hamstring them? Just let them shoot their game in their own division. If you arent shooting PCC, they are competing in a different division.

Maybe the guy with the PCC uses it as a house gun and he wants some trigger time and/or wants to see how an AR handles in a higher stress environment. How is that a bad thing?

IPSC/USPSA and Steel Challenge both allow PCCs. Steel Challenge (just like IDPA) even allows rimfires. Unless you start your own outlaw match with no PCC allowed you might have someone show up with one.
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  #33  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:11 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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C. Muzzle Devices: Flash hiders, compensators, and muzzle brakes are permitted.

That's the inclusive list of allowed muzzle devices. I don't see suppressor on there.
I don't know how timers would work with those anyway. Even a non suppressed PCC is sometimes an issue to get the timer to hear all the shots.
  #34  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:31 PM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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PCC in a pistol match

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Why would you want to hamstring them....?
I don't want to see a short barreled rifle participating in a competitive pistol match regardless if is in a separate division.....just as I don't want to see a shotgun with a 19 round magazine in a competitive pistol match....and I own one and use it for 3-gun competition.....

I say let the short barreled rifle shooters (PCC) compete in two gun or three gun competition, or any other venues where rifles are used.....

I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post.....no one has to agree with my rationale, nor do I have to compete with people that shoot shoulder mounted short barreled rifles in a pistol match! If the PCC was on a level playing field with pistols, then having a separate gun division would be fine.....but they are not.....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 12-06-2019 at 06:34 PM.
  #35  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:41 PM
liggett liggett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I don't want to see a short barreled rifle participating in a competitive pistol match regardless if is in a separate division.....just as I don't want to see a shotgun with a 19 round magazine in a competitive pistol match....and I own one and use it for 3-gun competition.....

I say let the short barreled rifle shooters (PCC) compete in two gun or three gun competition, or any other venues where rifles are used.....

I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post.....no one has to agree with my rationale, nor do I have to compete with people that shoot shoulder mounted short barreled rifles in a pistol match! If the PCC was on a level playing field with pistols, then having a separate gun division would be fine.....but they are not.....
We could require 10 round max and trenchcoats...
  #36  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:17 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Why do you keep saying short barrel rifle? Of all the PCC shooters I've seen, only one has shot an SBR, and it was only once, because a full sized rifle is better handling
  #37  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:27 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
Maybe the guy with the PCC uses it as a house gun and he wants some trigger time and/or wants to see how an AR handles in a higher stress environment. How is that a bad thing?.
The main thing he needs to learn is whether the darn thing works.
Malfs in PCCs, especially but not limited to homebuilts, are much more common than in match or service pistols.
  #38  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:56 PM
Igloodude Igloodude is offline
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Originally Posted by liggett View Post
We could require 10 round max and trenchcoats...
+1 on the L10 mod, but I was going to say lying on a table a few feet away, and mag not inserted. That's far more "realistic" which I think IDPA cares about?
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  #39  
Old 12-07-2019, 04:49 AM
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How are 10 round magazines realistic for carbines? That demonstrates the real goal... handicapping the PCC shooter.
The first PCC I bought was to allow me to practice with a carbine and use steel. The 9mm AR and the 223 house carbine have similar recoil and the same manual of arms. This was years before PCC was allowed in USPSA, but when USPSA allowed them, it became a great venue to dial in the use of the carbine.
I think I'd find IDPA stages too limiting for PCC, but I don't care if someone wants to shoot one.
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  #40  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:45 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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In our local USPSA outlaw matches I regularily shoot PPC in 9mm. My purpose is to keep up my "carbine" skills. I use 10 round mags exclusively to add to the practice, magazine changes!

Our league has a separate classification for PCC.

I also utilize my POST certification to do LEO and military police training at a private indoor range. The PCC allows CQC and transition drills with B-27 targets.

It really adds another dimension to their pistol training and "quals"!

Lots of fun too!
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  #41  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:14 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
I dare say everybody looks at the overall.
Isn't beating somebody with a fancier gun the goal?
I look at the overall at local matches just for more depth because I'm usually first or 2nd in my division. I pay no attention whatsoever to the overall at major matches where my division has real heat. I could care less about beating someone with a fancier gun, because many of those people suck at shooting. I just want to beat the people that are usually a little bit ahead of me.
  #42  
Old 12-10-2019, 11:16 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I have listed all of the competitive advantages of a PCC compared to shooting a pistol in IDPA in my post......
but those are made-up 'advantages'. pcc only competes against other pcc shooters. If you don't like pcc's, just ignore their results.
  #43  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:15 PM
tanner's owner tanner's owner is offline
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My take on PCCs is simple:

If gets more people into the sport or retains more people in the sport, I’ll support it.

I’m competing against other people in my division, so I don’t care. I’ve shot Revolver and BUG in my State’s IDPA championship and throughly enjoyed myself. Was I competitive against SSP/ ESP / CDP shooters? For the most part no, but I did beat many others in those higher capacity divisions, which is always gratifying.


Stage design has much to do with how successful a PCC shooter can be- lots of tight angles often is their nemesis.
  #44  
Old 12-11-2019, 05:24 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Short barreled rifles....

A rifle is a firearm fired from the shoulder, while a pistol is a firearm fired using one or both hands.....

A PCC is a lighter and more compact rifle using a pistol round, and is fired from the shoulder.....

It is much easier to fire a shoulder mounted weapon to stabilize the firearm, and allows very precise shooting with good ammo and a good trigger....

A PCC has several distinct advantages in a sport that was designed for pistol shooting..... and the speed of firing controlled pairs with a shoulder mounted weapon that is heavier than a pistol is a big plus.....
  #45  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:19 AM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
A PCC has several distinct advantages in a sport that was designed for pistol shooting..... and the speed of firing controlled pairs with a shoulder mounted weapon that is heavier than a pistol is a big plus.....
It might be an advantage on longer shots if they were actually competing in your division. But they're not. And they have a huge disadvantage on leans, ports, prop manipulation, etc...

If you can't fire "controlled pairs" at a similar speed on closer targets, you might want to address that. We have a number of M-class pcc shooters here, and they pretty much always get beat by the top guys in open, limited, CO and even singlestack. I don't really care about that tho except to make fun of them.
  #46  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:06 PM
Andyk Andyk is offline
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I think it's funny when some guy with a 5000.00 STI gets smoked by a 500.00 PSA pcc. Not sure why it really matters, you compete against your division. Only one person wins high overall and he can be from any division. Put more practice time if you are butthurt getting beat by PCCs. I don't think they are going anywhere. 30 round mags? They work in pistols too.

Last edited by Andyk; 12-11-2019 at 02:10 PM.
  #47  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:31 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Andyk View Post
Only one person wins high overall and he can be from any division.
actually nobody wins high overall, because it's not a thing. Not even recognized by the rules. Unless of course it's an iron-sight shooter, then it totally counts.
  #48  
Old 12-11-2019, 02:32 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
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Originally Posted by Andyk View Post
I think it's funny when some guy with a 5000.00 STI gets smoked by a 500.00 PSA pcc.


I think it's funny when an old drunk dude in a yugo with 2 goats in the back seat passes an elite bicyclists going up a hill.
  #49  
Old 12-11-2019, 04:21 PM
Rosco Shooter Rosco Shooter is offline
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I agree with Tom Freeman. Get past the overall standings and see how you rank in your division. You can also sort by age category in Practiscore, which I often do as I'm 75 which makes me a Super Senior in USPSA and a Distinguished Senior in IDPA. Also, at 75, I'm a participant or enthusiast, not a competitor.
  #50  
Old 12-11-2019, 05:26 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Well, I won't be 75 til next month, but I compete as best I can.
Standards are relaxed from a couple of decades ago, middle of the pack is good.

Since SS and DS start at 65, I think we need a Codger Category.
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