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  #1  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:07 AM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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9x23 Winchester

Other than Winchester, is there anyone making commercial ammo any more. In looking on many of the smaller ammo company websites, they have all dropped the round it seems. CorBon did have some PowR'Ball but now it is even gone...

There is lots of Winchester 124 Soft Point around but even though 125 Silvertip HPs are listed on their website it has been a LONG time since I have seen any for sale...

I have read that many of the smaller companies dropped the round because they were using Starline brass which was not as heavy in the web as the Winchester. As a result to get the full 1450 fps from a 125 grain bullet the cases were bulging especially in non-ramped barrels.

Great round...a shame it had to die...

Bob
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  #2  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:45 AM
Descartian Descartian is offline
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I shoot winchester at the range and carry corbon (no longer made) or buffalo bore.
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2018, 12:18 PM
teecat teecat is offline
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Superman - don’t mean to highjack your thread, but having just gotten into .38 Super, I’ve found a wide variety of specs from the different manufacturers of 38 Super ammo. GECO makes a 124 gr 38 Super round at over 1400 FPS. This seems close to 9x23 ballistics, right? (Haven’t tried them but I think the Armscor loads are close to this too.). Other more ‘standard’ 38 Super factory loads are 130 gr at around 1200+ FPS.

The GECO 38 Super loads are truly ferocious in comparison: flames from the muzzle and a big kick. From what I’ve read the hotter loads are closer to the original 38 Super spec from the early 1930’s. Is 9x23 a way to get back to the original 38 Super performance? Also is there any concern shooting these modern hotter loads regularly in pistols of recent manufacture?


BTW I leaned a lot of what I know about 38 Super from your informative posts on this forum- thanks!
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:26 PM
Ghostrider903 Ghostrider903 is online now
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I love the round personally but yes the starline brass is not as heavy as the Winchester brass. I think what killed most of it was the change in power factor rules.

1450 is obtainable from the starline brass but thatís about where the pucker factor comes for me and yes my chamber is unsupported.

As far as the Winchester brass goes I have heard of people pushing it to 1650 but not me personally.

I am actually about to start working up a load for my daily carry using starline brass for the testing and Winchester when carried


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  #5  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:51 AM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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teecat...thanks...I love the .38 Super and have for many decades...

As to the GECO ammo..if you read closely you will find the velocity is from a 6" barrel, not 5". So really while a FULL POWER .38 Super like Buffalo Bore, CorBon and many other smaller manufacturers make, it isn't any hotter than the full bore 124s from these manufacturers.

Winchester 124 Soft Points run 1460 from my 5" GM with a BarSto barrel. 125 Silvertips get 1440. Those are full .357 Magnum loads from a 4" barrel. What I don't understand why Winchester still lists the ST available on their website but none has been made in a few years yet there are tons of Soft Points out there.

It is too bad that for whatever reason Starline did not duplicate the Winchester brass in head strength. I did find that Reed's Custom Ammo does have one 125 gr. JHP load still on their website. Buffalo Bore, CorBon and everyone else seems to have deleted it...

Truth be known, when introduced in 1929 there was no cartridge called the .38 Super. The Super .38 ACP was what Colt called the new 1911 chambered in .38 ACP. The cases were never marked .38 Super or even Super .38. The ammo companies just kept upping the velocity of the .38 ACP until it "supposedly" reached 1300 fps with a 130 grain bullet. I have chronographed many older .38 ACP rounds from that era and never found a one that even came close to 1300 fps... That velocity is very easy to now reach with a 130 grain bullet but the ammo companies choose to keep the velocities down usually in the 1100s for he idiots who may stick a Super round in a 1903 Colt Auto. I'm not even sure when the first cases marked .38 Super were marketed. Reed's Ammo is the only company I know that still makes .38 ACP ammo...there are probably others but not many.

After doing a lot of shooting and research in shooting the 10mm and .45 Super in 1911s this past two years, I've come to some conclusions in relation to shooting .38 Super and 9x23 Winchester in the same guns.

#1) Install a flat bottom firing pin stop

#2) Install a 25# mainspring (stock is 23)

#3) Install at least a 18# recoil spring with a .38 Super and 22# with a 9x23.

..especially if you have a non-ramped barrel.

This will retard slide opening and decrease the chance of having a blowout with a .38 Super case. In the 9x23 it will just help slow the slide down...

I've put the flat bottom FPSs in two Kimbers, a TALO Commander that has 9x23 and .38 Super barrels and have a 10mm PARA-USA Elite LS Hunter that came with one. They really help soften the recoil.

It's nice to see the Super becoming so popular. There are now tons of guns available out there compared to 1980 when I started shooting Super....

Bob
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:00 AM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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Ghostrider...remember that there will be a difference in pressure if you develop the load in Starline brass and then use the same amount of powder in Winchester....

Bob
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  #7  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:12 AM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
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SuperMan, thanks for the advice re springing for the 38 Super and the 9x23. I've just added a couple of 9x23 barrels to my lineup. So, based on your recommendation, I should be using the recoil spring from my 10mm(20#) for the 9x23, and the recoil spring from the 45 acp(18 1/2#) for the 38 Super? I already have a FBFPS installed.
I lucked out and found a guy over on CalGuns that had some new, unfired, factory primed 9x23 Winchester made brass. So, I got 1K, and have been punching the primers out and replacing them with Winchester Small Rifle primers, due to reading complaints that WSP primers are too soft for 9x23 primers.

Last edited by Sailormilan2; 05-23-2018 at 06:52 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:21 AM
Descartian Descartian is offline
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Buffalo bore still produces 3 hollow point SD loads.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=191
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2018, 08:31 AM
Ghostrider903 Ghostrider903 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
Ghostrider...remember that there will be a difference in pressure if you develop the load in Starline brass and then use the same amount of powder in Winchester....

Bob

I appreciate you pointing that out, planning to start low and work up using silhouette but may be switching to vv n320


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  #10  
Old 05-23-2018, 01:01 PM
Neal Neal is offline
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Deleted. Duplicate question.

Last edited by Neal; 05-23-2018 at 01:08 PM.
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  #11  
Old 05-23-2018, 07:42 PM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
Buffalo bore still produces 3 hollow point SD loads.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=191
...boy did I miss that one. I went over there looking and when I didn't see it mixed in with the 9mm loadings didn't look past the .38 Super...thanks fo pointing that out.

Sailor....I read that Winchester factory primed 9x23 brass had Small Rifle Primers as did the factory ammo....maybe it was incorrect?

And yes, for full load .38 Super it has been my experience to use a 18.5# spring... And the same for 9x23..use a 10mm spring. The factory .38 Super spring is the same as a 9mm spring...14#. When using low level Super rounds that aren't generating much more velocity than a 9mm that makes sense....but once one has upped the momentum the slide needs to be slowed down.
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:50 AM
teecat teecat is offline
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Thanks for the insight Superman. Now I see whatís going on with the GECO .38 Super round: itís labeled to comply with IPSC regulations for major power factor, so thatís where they load it to (exactly) 1410 fps- to make the 175 PF from the 124 gr bullet. No mention of the 6Ē barrel in fine print, but obviously itís designed for 6Ē comp guns. Makes perfect sense now. It really does have a lot more umph to give from a 5Ē barrel judging from the amount of flames shooting out of the muzzel!

Iíve also shot the Buffalo Bore 124 gr HPs advertised at 1350 fps, which seems like the classic full-power .38 Super load. Very nice shooting round but very expensive! Iíll try the Georgia Arms version next, which is half the cost.

Now I understand better what 9x23 gives you: about 100 fps over the full power .38 Super.

Iíve also set up my Colt O2991 with a flat FPS, 23 lb mainspring and 16 lb recoil spring, which seems to manage the full power loads pretty well. I may try an 18lb recoil spring at some point, since some of the ammo brands are very occasionally little finicky about returning to battery. Thanks again for the info.
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2018, 05:19 PM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
Buffalo bore still produces 3 hollow point SD loads.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=191

Sailor....I read that Winchester factory primed 9x23 brass had Small Rifle Primers as did the factory ammo....maybe it was incorrect?.
I have read reports that factory loaded ammo had issues with the primers. Primers pierced and sometimes piece of primer sticking to the firing pin. The opinion of the writers was that Winchester was using small pistol primers in their factory loaded 9x23 ammo.
Based on that, I went with the assumption that factory primed brass would have the same primers as the factory loaded ammo.
So, I chose to replace the primers. I used the punched primers in my 9mm practice ammo.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:25 AM
SuperMan SuperMan is offline
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Let me know how full loads work.... I have shot nothing but factory 9x23 as I just haven't had the need for 1450 fps loads out of my guns and although I have never pierced and primer the pressure does pop the firing pin indentation back out...
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2018, 04:48 AM
farscott farscott is offline
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I still have a few cases of the Winchester 125-grain ST (X923W) ammo as welll as a few cases of the more common 124-grain SP load that I bought when my 9x23 was built. I only use the Winchester brass for my reloads, and I do use small rifle primers. That is what the factory ammo used.

I have loaded 147-grain rounds to 1450 fps with no pressure signs using the Winchester brass and small rifle primers. My pistol is one of the Series '80 Colt models with the non-ramped factory barrel that John Harrison went over from top to bottom. It uses a 20# recoil spring on a FLGR and a flat-bottom firing pin stop.
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  #16  
Old 05-26-2018, 06:40 AM
Kosh75287 Kosh75287 is offline
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Quote:
I have loaded 147-grain rounds to 1450 fps with no pressure signs using the Winchester brass and small rifle primers.
THAT'S better than can be had from some 6"-barreled .357 Magnum revolvers! Can you speak of the type of propellant and projectile (and primer, if unusual) you used to develop that load? I won't petition for charge weights, since I understand that weapons in this class are highly variable.

I'D likely want to keep it closer to 1350-1400 f/s, to provide an extra margin between me and pressure excursions, but that's just ME. I'm of the impression that the slower velocity might improve control in un-comped pistols.

I think that this is too fine a cartridge to let die an untimely death. I can't help also pondering its potential in a carbine as a camp-gun or PDW. It'd require a platform with a (HELLUVA strong) locked breach, but such things are not impossible. Perhaps an AR15 platform could be suitably modified.
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Last edited by Kosh75287; 05-26-2018 at 06:50 AM.
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  #17  
Old 05-26-2018, 07:12 AM
Sgt Vic Sgt Vic is offline
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I saw that Fusion Firearms is offering their stainless match barrel chambered in 9x23. I saw they posted that a while back.
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  #18  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:30 PM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
Buffalo bore still produces 3 hollow point SD loads.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=191
Sailor....I read that Winchester factory primed 9x23 brass had Small Rifle Primers as did the factory ammo....maybe it was incorrect?
You are correct. I located my 15th Edition Winchester Reloading Manual, and it does list Small Rifle Primers being used in the 9x23.(p.8)
It also lists the same info on p.5 of their 2003 Edition Reloading Manual.
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  #19  
Old 05-28-2018, 02:21 AM
ClarkEMyers ClarkEMyers is offline
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I choose SP2 to push the 9x23 external ballistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosh75287 View Post
Ö... Can you speak of the type of propellant and projectile (and primer, if unusual) you used to develop that load? I won't petition for charge weights, since I understand that weapons in this class are highly variable.

I'D likely want to keep it closer to 1350-1400 f/s, to provide an extra margin between me and pressure excursions, but that's just ME. I'm of the impression that the slower velocity might improve control in un-comped pistols.

ÖÖÖ
For routine plinking I am mostly using up WAP for which Winchester published data at the time. Powder and data are contemporaries. A similar powder is still available. There is more current book data from European powder companies than from American based vendors.

I have no reason to load my own 9x23 to exceed factory loads - of which I still have a good many if not enough - but if I wanted to max out with heavier bullets I would use my stock of SP2 also from the period (check the discussion around Dane Burns and also on Brian Enos board) and a soft cup and core bullet that ran smaller on the diameter and shorter on the bearing surface when I have two to choose from.

Fairly fresh Winchester case and Winchester small rifle primers in a 9x23 SAAMI style free bored or long throated (not trying to fit a .38 ACP) chamber so to speak 9x23 chamber.

My own inclination is to go with factory external ballistics on the 9x23 or move up to a 9x25 which gets even more impressive external ballistics and if less magazine capacity plenty for any reasonable use of the cartridge.
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  #20  
Old 07-08-2018, 07:01 PM
TheQuietMan TheQuietMan is offline
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I run the GA Arms Gold Dots. Advertised MV at 1350 fps. I chrono, at 10 feet, 1340 fps. Truth in advertising. TQM
=====

Quote:
Originally Posted by teecat View Post
Thanks for the insight Superman. Now I see whatís going on with the GECO .38 Super round: itís labeled to comply with IPSC regulations for major power factor, so thatís where they load it to (exactly) 1410 fps- to make the 175 PF from the 124 gr bullet. No mention of the 6Ē barrel in fine print, but obviously itís designed for 6Ē comp guns. Makes perfect sense now. It really does have a lot more umph to give from a 5Ē barrel judging from the amount of flames shooting out of the muzzel!

Iíve also shot the Buffalo Bore 124 gr HPs advertised at 1350 fps, which seems like the classic full-power .38 Super load. Very nice shooting round but very expensive! Iíll try the Georgia Arms version next, which is half the cost.

Now I understand better what 9x23 gives you: about 100 fps over the full power .38 Super.

Iíve also set up my Colt O2991 with a flat FPS, 23 lb mainspring and 16 lb recoil spring, which seems to manage the full power loads pretty well. I may try an 18lb recoil spring at some point, since some of the ammo brands are very occasionally little finicky about returning to battery. Thanks again for the info.
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  #21  
Old 07-08-2018, 09:31 PM
Peacemkr40 Peacemkr40 is offline
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I never understood the need to push as close or beyond Saami specs for a given round. Yes you can push 38 super to velocities and energy of 9x23Win, but why? If the shortage comes from nobody's really producing the 9x23 rounds with a couple of exceptions, it would make sense to want to get your brass to last as long as possible. That would indicate lighter loads with the exception of a few higher power loads for SD, hunting etc that you can also train with. Because there are so few producers of 9x23 Win. why not reload at a reduced power to extend the life of your brass?
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  #22  
Old 07-09-2018, 05:27 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Pushing the .38 super to near .357 magnum ballistics

[QUOTE]I never understood the need to push as close or beyond Saami specs for a given round. [QUOTE]

When I use to shoot my S&W .357 magnum revolvers, I never practiced target shooting with full power loads, and often used .38 special loads. For range practice, using very hot loads in a handgun that will punish your wrist and elbow is a recipe to develop a "flinch."

Even though I carry a hot loaded custom +P .38 super load for self defense, I don't train with it everyday, and train with a lighter load. For me, the point of range practice is to retain and reinforce my skills for proper sight alignment and proper trigger control to be able to fire an accurate shot as fast as possible for the size and distance of the target.
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  #23  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:09 PM
ClarkEMyers ClarkEMyers is offline
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Lower performance loads can use lower performance brass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacemkr40 View Post
I never understood the need to push as close or beyond Saami specs for a given round. Yes you can push 38 super to velocities and energy of 9x23Win, but why? If the shortage comes from nobody's really producing the 9x23 rounds with a couple of exceptions, it would make sense to want to get your brass to last as long as possible. That would indicate lighter loads with the exception of a few higher power loads for SD, hunting etc that you can also train with. Because there are so few producers of 9x23 Win. why not reload at a reduced power to extend the life of your brass?
If and only if loading at reduced power there is no need to extend the life of brass used for the reduced power loads because the brass can be Starline's admittedly weaker but readily available new from stock brass.

Then again I tend to credit current complaints that Winchester brand brass quality is more variable in recent years than it was when Olin started by rolling their own brass sheet. I have no complaints about anything with a 9x23 head stamp but...Ö...

Many of us will use switch barrel or alternative handguns with a long loaded 9x19 where again brass is certainly available and relatively cheap.

It is only the very strong Winchester brass in 9x23 Winchester that is an issue.
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  #24  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:05 PM
Abbaschild Abbaschild is offline
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Back in the early 80's, 38 super barrels started coming out that headspaced on the case mouth, mostly to improve the mediocre accuracy of the original design. We started hot rodding the 38s to see how far we could take it. One day I noticed the 38s has the same dimensions as the case head and body of the 223 round. So I cut off a bunch of 223 cases and reamed the case mouth to accept the .355 bullets. They worked well, and no more worries about overstressing the case. And yes, I used small rifle primers. (Among other things, we didn't have to fill out the pistol ammo log when we bought SR primers.) I still have some of those 223/38s rounds.

Using the same manufacturer brass, should provide consistent case capacity, which seems to be an issue with 9x23 brass. And no more worries about supply.
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