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  #26  
Old 04-24-2018, 01:52 PM
TCFD273 TCFD273 is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
The problem, in this context, with most standard penetration/expansion tests and articles is that these tests generally pre-suppose that the ammo is o.k. for use in a given gun.

I think it is first important to assess whether a given ammo load, perhaps especially one rated as +p, is even suitable for use in one's chosen firearm.

Notwithstanding this observation, it is obvious that the 147gr Federal HST (non-+p version) repeatedly shows up as a top 9mm choice, exactly as suggested in a number of excellent replies in this thread.... Thanks Again for each of those replies.


I donít generally roll with anything under a 4Ē barrel for this reason. Most ammo is made and tested for the Glock 19.

On the odd occasion Iím pocketing a 380 or small 38, I use fmjís that have proven to function reliably in that gun.


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  #27  
Old 04-24-2018, 02:13 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by TCFD273 View Post
I don’t generally roll with anything under a 4” barrel for this reason....
+1911. This is me as well, 90% of the time... when I go with a .45acp Wilson Carry Comp, compact SG, or full-size SG. With 1911s, we avoid these types of concerns. But up until last year, there were occasional times when I "left home without" due to size/weight/concealment issues ... the Shield was a good compromise solution for those occasions. A compromise, to be sure, but an improvement over prior years.
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  #28  
Old 04-24-2018, 03:25 PM
TCFD273 TCFD273 is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
+1911. This is me as well, 90% of the time... when I go with a .45acp Wilson Carry Comp, compact SG, or full-size SG. With 1911s, we avoid these types of concerns. But up until last year, there were occasional times when I "left home without" due to size/weight/concealment issues ... the Shield was a good compromise solution for those occasions. A compromise, to be sure, but an improvement over prior years.


I carry a G43 appendix when I absolutely need to be low visibility but want something more than a 380

I use the HST for that, but I know it wonít perform optimally


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  #29  
Old 04-24-2018, 04:14 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
+1911. This is me as well, 90% of the time... when I go with a .45acp Wilson Carry Comp, compact SG, or full-size SG. With 1911s, we avoid these types of concerns. But up until last year, there were occasional times when I "left home without" due to size/weight/concealment issues ... the Shield was a good compromise solution for those occasions. A compromise, to be sure, but an improvement over prior years.
I also agree with this, I 98% of the time have at least a 4 inch gun. At work I have my little DB9 in pocket and a 5 inch in the toolbox. HSTs all round.
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  #30  
Old 04-24-2018, 04:35 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Well, today Brownells has one of their one-day-only sales (code MBW), so I ordered a few boxes of both the 124gr and 147gr Federal HST. Standard pressure, of course.

Again, I want to thank each of you very, very much for your experiences and the links you've contributed. Special thanks as well to those who've shared additional thoughts via PMs.

Very helpful. Thank You.
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  #31  
Old 04-24-2018, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Well, today Brownells has one of their one-day-only sales (code MBW), so I ordered a few boxes of both the 124gr and 147gr Federal HST. Standard pressure, of course.

Again, I want to thank each of you very, very much for your experiences and the links you've contributed. Special thanks as well to those who've shared additional thoughts via PMs.

Very helpful. Thank You.
Please let us know what you think after comparing the two weights. I have only shot the 124ís but am quite interested in trying the 147ís. Donít want to spend the big money on a 20 pack or shipping on a box of 50, will have to wait until I make and order that I can attach them too.
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  #32  
Old 04-25-2018, 05:48 AM
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I've shot some HST +P 147 gr out of my only 9mm, a PPQ, and it shoots fine. Very controllable and fast follow-up even in this plastic-fantastic. I find the limiting factor for speed in these plastics (9mm) is the trigger. Although the PPQ has one of the best triggers in poly-land, there is still a bit more take-up and reset travel vs a 1911. I guess if I shot it more than once a year, I'd get faster with it ;-)...The above mention load is my SD load in 9mm. It has a decent power factor at 154, which is only 7% below my favorite 38S SD load the WC 124gr-variety..."+P" designation or not, any decent plastic-fantastic should be able to handle this load with aplomb. Although it is stout for a 9mm, it isn't excessive...There are hotter 9mm loads out there, a 147gr with a 177 PF, for example, which is as hot as top-end 38s. Maybe this one pushes the envelope, but any 9mm worth its salt should be able to handle the 154 PF, imo.
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Last edited by combat auto; 04-25-2018 at 06:00 AM.
  #33  
Old 04-25-2018, 09:27 AM
TCFD273 TCFD273 is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
I've shot some HST +P 147 gr out of my only 9mm, a PPQ, and it shoots fine. Very controllable and fast follow-up even in this plastic-fantastic. I find the limiting factor for speed in these plastics (9mm) is the trigger. Although the PPQ has one of the best triggers in poly-land, there is still a bit more take-up and reset travel vs a 1911. I guess if I shot it more than once a year, I'd get faster with it ;-)...The above mention load is my SD load in 9mm. It has a decent power factor at 154, which is only 7% below my favorite 38S SD load the WC 124gr-variety..."+P" designation or not, any decent plastic-fantastic should be able to handle this load with aplomb. Although it is stout for a 9mm, it isn't excessive...There are hotter 9mm loads out there, a 147gr with a 177 PF, for example, which is as hot as top-end 38s. Maybe this one pushes the envelope, but any 9mm worth its salt should be able to handle the 154 PF, imo.


Power factor doesnít mean anything in regards to terminal performance.

LOTS, and I mean A LOT, of people have been killed with 70gr TSX going 2400. Powerfactor of that combo is 168.

+P HST 147ís and 230ís doesnít add any benefit to terminal performance. The standard pressure ammo has been tested extensively and a proven performer on the street.


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  #34  
Old 04-25-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by TCFD273 View Post
Power factor doesn’t mean anything in regards to terminal performance.

LOTS, and I mean A LOT, of people have been killed with 70gr TSX going 2400. Powerfactor of that combo is 168.

+P HST 147’s and 230’s doesn’t add any benefit to terminal performance. The standard pressure ammo has been tested extensively and a proven performer on the street.


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Your opening up an entirely different discussion which is based on an individual's beliefs and what the person believe's "matters" in performance in SD. My evaluation of ammo puts a lot of weight on PF, penetration, and expansion, especially with 9mm, 38S, 40 and 45...PF is a much more precise measure vs saying something is +P or isn't +P (which is qualitative rather than quantitative). Your first statement is incorrect. To wit, it is exactly the combination of velocity and weight which is a very important determinate of performance in the above mentioned calibers...Your second statement is an apples to orange comparison, and doesn't tell us much about 9mm ballistics which travels much slower and doesn't have the energies associated with Hydrostatic shock.
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Last edited by combat auto; 04-25-2018 at 11:09 AM.
  #35  
Old 04-25-2018, 11:06 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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My friends, I'd like to keep any remaining discussion here on the subject of Wilson ammo products, preferably on what are best selections for subcompacts and the footnote warning/advisement that appears on Wilson's 9mm ammo webpages relating to the Shield.

The Wilson webpage warning/advisement as to +p Wilson loads (or any +p) in this commonly used firearm is quite clear IMHO and I'd be surprised if anyone here would advise to simply ignore it... regardless of any ballistic or terminal performance arguments. And this was a key reason for my starting this thread.

Our moderator has graciously allowed this thread to include ammo alternatives, but let's not force him to close the thread due to a complete departure from Wilson-related matters.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 04-25-2018 at 11:27 AM.
  #36  
Old 04-25-2018, 11:45 AM
TCFD273 TCFD273 is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Your opening up an entirely different discussion which is based on an individual's beliefs and what the person believe's "matters" in performance in SD. My evaluation of ammo puts a lot of weight on PF, penetration, and expansion, especially with 9mm, 38S, 40 and 45...PF is a much more precise measure vs saying something is +P or isn't +P (which is qualitative rather than quantitative). Your first statement is incorrect. To wit, it is exactly the combination of velocity and weight which is a very important determinate of performance in the above mentioned calibers...Your second statement is an apples to orange comparison, and doesn't tell us much about 9mm ballistics which travels much slower and doesn't have the energies associated with Hydrostatic shock.


Hydrostatic shock in pistols has been debunked for years, doesnít exist. Iíve seen it with my own eyes....either thoracotomies on GSWís to the chest or in a cadaver.

Rifles yes, pistols, no. That goes for .22, 38, 380, 9mm, 40 and 45.

If power factor mattered in terminal performance....a 10mm buffalo bore round has a higher power factor than 5.56

Itís not opinion, Iíve seen it, done it, and have very close friends with a lot of experience doing it....

Donít take my word for it:
https://youtu.be/N1_IXxJp4Ik


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  #37  
Old 04-25-2018, 11:51 AM
TCFD273 TCFD273 is offline
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
My friends, I'd like to keep any remaining discussion here on the subject of Wilson ammo products, preferably on what are best selections for subcompacts and the footnote warning/advisement that appears on Wilson's 9mm ammo webpages relating to the Shield.

The Wilson webpage warning/advisement as to +p Wilson loads (or any +p) in this commonly used firearm is quite clear IMHO and I'd be surprised if anyone here would advise to simply ignore it... regardless of any ballistic or terminal performance arguments. And this was a key reason for my starting this thread.

Our moderator has graciously allowed this thread to include ammo alternatives, but let's not force him to close the thread due to a complete departure from Wilson-related matters.




If you ever want some real education on ballistics, Will Pettyís VCQB course is very good for seeing what rounds do around vehicles and barriers.

I submit my original point, shoot heavy for caliber (9mm 147) or 230gr and donít worry about +P with HST or Gold Dot

Iíve been messing around with the G2 round, but some insider information here... the FBI has been having issues with G2 (that round was specíd for the FBI), looks like theyíll be going to a Hornady round. Announcement should happen in a few weeks.


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  #38  
Old 04-25-2018, 12:02 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Hydrostatic shock in pistols has been debunked for years, doesn’t exist. I’ve seen it with my own eyes....either thoracotomies on GSW’s to the chest or in a cadaver.

Rifles yes, pistols, no. That goes for .22, 38, 380, 9mm, 40 and 45.

If power factor mattered in terminal performance....a 10mm buffalo bore round has a higher power factor than 5.56

It’s not opinion, I’ve seen it, done it, and have very close friends with a lot of experience doing it....

Don’t take my word for it:
https://youtu.be/N1_IXxJp4Ik


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You keep mixing apples and oranges. Comparing a pistol round to a 5.56 is just ridiculous. Go back and read my post why this is true. Your first statement is true, so why do you keep comparing pistol with rifle? Anyway, waste of time and not what the OP had in mind, lets respect his desire.

PS, if you really want to flesh this out start a thread in the ammo section or such place, guaranteed you will get many posters to join in. You can start with the Title: "Why PF doesn't matter" and then present the data to (try) to prove your case. :-)
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Last edited by combat auto; 04-25-2018 at 12:16 PM.
  #39  
Old 04-25-2018, 12:04 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
My friends, I'd like to keep any remaining discussion here on the subject of Wilson ammo products, preferably on what are best selections for subcompacts and the footnote warning/advisement that appears on Wilson's 9mm ammo webpages relating to the Shield.

The Wilson webpage warning/advisement as to +p Wilson loads (or any +p) in this commonly used firearm is quite clear IMHO and I'd be surprised if anyone here would advise to simply ignore it... regardless of any ballistic or terminal performance arguments. And this was a key reason for my starting this thread.

Our moderator has graciously allowed this thread to include ammo alternatives, but let's not force him to close the thread due to a complete departure from Wilson-related matters.
Agree My Friend. Never know what will set off a caliber debate. Never thought using the word "PF" in relation to 9mm (only, not any other caliber) would do it. -LOL!!!

Carry-On!
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Last edited by combat auto; 04-25-2018 at 12:08 PM.
  #40  
Old 04-25-2018, 12:08 PM
TCFD273 TCFD273 is offline
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You keep mixing apples and oranges. Comparing a pistol round to a 5.56 is just ridiculous. Go back and read my post why this is true. Anyway, waste of time and not what the OP had in mind, lets respect his desire.


Just watch the video I linked. One of the foremost experts in terminal ballistics is on the podcast and a man who has the most experience down range with terminal performance (Rifle and pistol)


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  #41  
Old 04-25-2018, 02:18 PM
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Thread drift; closed.
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