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  #26  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:12 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
I've never paid more than a thousand dollars for a 1911. I'm happy with those.

If I had a Wilson I doubt I would shoot it anymore than the ones I have. For me it's more about how much I shoot and less about what I shoot. I would rather spend the money on ammo. If you shoot once a week like I do the cost can be considerable.
You would. I have 14 1911s and the Wilsons get used more than any other guns I have, I carry one as well.
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:47 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by Handy View Post
The oddity in this topic is that we accept that an all steel, .45 caliber, 8 round 1911 pistol could range in price from $350 to $6000 because of who constructed it.

That's the equivalent of Honda offering a 3 liter Accord in versions ranging from $22,000 to $400,000.....
A patently silly assertion as it assumes the specifications, clearances, workmanship and finish requirements are all the same regardless of cost.

Absolute nonsense, not only from brand to brand, but even within a given brand.

The problem these days is everyone seems to have a hard on about how someone else chooses to spend their own money.

Last edited by TRSOtto; 07-20-2017 at 09:50 PM.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2017, 10:51 PM
scw2 scw2 is offline
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Originally Posted by stormdragon View Post
It's a economic concept I ran into in college. The idea is that as you spend more for something you get higher quality, but there comes a point where the return you get in quality begins to diminish even as you spend more money.

Speaking about 1911 guns from stock manufactured to full out custom, where is YOUR point of diminishing returns, even if you can't really afford to get up to that point right now.

Leaving aside the mostly or entirely cosmetic or aesthetic changes, many of which can cost a great deal, at what point in dollars do you think that PoDR is reached?

Just curious. For me, it's probably around $3000 even though I don't have but one gun, not to mention a 1911, that rises above that line.
Depends.

My point of diminishing returns on a Wilson is a Supergrade. Increase in reliability over a CQB, highly doubtful. Increase in accuracy, hard to define and there have been some serious attempts to do so. What the gun will look like after 10,000 rounds, not much different than a CQB if well used. Resale value, if you find a Supergrade at a local gun store, I have seen great deals off original sales price. Difference in quality of manufacture, seems to have some variance as all the higher end Wilsons are hand built to some extent and that adds variances.

Wow factor, I could care less, already got a stable of customs and semi-customs and the standard Wilsons work great. I am not out to impress the guy with the CZ. He is pretty happy with his choice.

9mm 1911s: Different deal. There are some great purpose built 9mms out there. My German Sig P226 was more reliable than all my 1911 9mms except for a Wilson Spec Ops 9, which was originally designed around a 9mm and not a 45.
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2017, 11:56 PM
Handy Handy is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
A patently silly assertion as it assumes the specifications, clearances, workmanship and finish requirements are all the same regardless of cost.

Absolute nonsense, not only from brand to brand, but even within a given brand.

The problem these days is everyone seems to have a hard on about how someone else chooses to spend their own money.
It doesn't assume that at all. What a silly conclusion!

You can pull a slide stop and firing pin out of a $350 1911 and they will function perfectly in a $6000 1911. That doesn't mean they are identical, but the difference between them is incredibly difficult to objectively measure since both guns function without breaking or wearing out prematurely. They simply don't compare to poorly heat treated engine parts that "blow up".

Last edited by Handy; 07-21-2017 at 12:03 AM.
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  #30  
Old 07-21-2017, 01:15 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Originally Posted by Handy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
A patently silly assertion as it assumes the specifications, clearances, workmanship and finish requirements are all the same regardless of cost.

Absolute nonsense, not only from brand to brand, but even within a given brand.

The problem these days is everyone seems to have a hard on about how someone else chooses to spend their own money.
It doesn't assume that at all. What a silly conclusion!

You can pull a slide stop and firing pin out of a $350 1911 and they will function perfectly in a $6000 1911. That doesn't mean they are identical, but the difference between them is incredibly difficult to objectively measure since both guns function without breaking or wearing out prematurely. They simply don't compare to poorly heat treated engine parts that "blow up".
Ah, but you admit there IS a difference, the side stop on my Wilson is S7 tool steel and I can nearly guarantee you it WILL last st least 50000 rounds. Can you be that sure of your side stop on a lesser gun? I sure as hell cant. Also they will not function perfectly, I can assure you they will A. Not fit 50% of the time and B. Have much worse engagement of vital parts and C. Never feel or sound as good.

Quite frankly if it's not a DW, NHC, or WC gun I will carry plastic as I simply don't want to put my life in the hands of something that I am unsure of. I will and do GLADLY own many other makes of 1911s but I will only carry NHC and WC. They have proven to me and many others that they WORK and provide tangible performance improvments over other options irregardless of the price. I do not care if I have to pay $2000 more for 10% more performance. The simple fact is I HAVE IN MY HAND 10% more performance than any other options. Period. Do I actually need it or will I realistically use it? Hopefully not.

However similar to the fact I hand built a NOVI2000 blown 416 CID fully forged and perfectly machined and assembled engine with the best components and electronics I LIKE knowing that my particular set of equipment is in the top 1%. THAT is why I carry a Wilson 1911 instead of a glock that would technically work "okay" for the job. THAT is why I actively choose to use things like a German razor and brush to shave with vs a disposable gelette. THAT is the difference between picking something that "works" or is "good enough" and actively striving for and choosing excellence.

Last edited by Striker2237; 07-21-2017 at 01:19 AM.
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  #31  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:16 AM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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Originally Posted by Handy View Post
I don't know if I could set a price. But my starting point would be the cost of buying a stainless Caspian slide and frame that were hand fit to each other and have whatever machining options Caspian offers, plus the cost of a Kart barrel and high quality small parts.

I would guess such a custom pistol would come in for under a $1000, but that's with some of my labor. If the pistol were to be finished instead of stainless or I didn't want to do any of the assembly work, add the shop rate. You're still under $1500 at that point.


The problem really is that the cost of a Wilson or Brown isn't the retail cost of parts and labor, but the luxury cost of a brand name item. It is very difficult to say how much extra someone ought to feel comfortable paying to have "Wilson" stamped on their slide vice a non-branded custom made of nearly identical components. But it is a real value, since name brand luxury items have an intangible value that remains on resale.


I'm not a "brand" person, so my threshold is going to be lower than brand loyalty people. When I decided I wanted a .308 military rifle 20 years ago, I was perfectly happy to pay less than 50% for a Springfield imported Greek made SAR3 rather than pay for the nearly identical HK marked German product. I understand that this would not have been acceptable trade for many people, regardless of the actual quality comparison.



For many products, price is largely based on intangibles like brand or market. Many products sell better when the price is higher.
I totally agree with you.
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  #32  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:31 AM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy View Post
The oddity in this topic is that we accept that an all steel, .45 caliber, 8 round 1911 pistol could range in price from $350 to $6000 because of who constructed it.

That's the equivalent of Honda offering a 3 liter Accord in versions ranging from $22,000 to $400,000.


Fred Craig asked me if I wanted to buy a Merc M-11 he was doing a limited run of. I couldn't see spending the $4000, but I considered it because the pistol is entirely different and unique - you can't buy a cheaper version. Before I would spend a large sum on a more refined version of a common firearm I would be looking at something much more custom than what is typically done to a 1911. At the end of the day, all non-Colt 1911s are clones.
I have only owned one Colt. So I don't have much experience with the brand. But what little experience I do have with them. There are several clones that I would much rather have than a Colt. Now the Colt wasn't a bad gun. It was average. I am glad people love to buy the Colt name. I sold it for close to three times the amount I paid for it.
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  #33  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:32 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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To answer your question op, yes, there is a point of diminishing returns, not only with guns but with any genera...Another way to say this, at the top end, the extra amount of cost doesn't necessarily yield a (proportional) amount of benefit. Again, you might see this with guns, cars, watches, motorcycles, almost anything, even say an electric-grill!...Where exactly the optimal price vs benefit point is for any consumer depends on many variables, but only you can decide for yourself as the "value" one puts on anything is a very personal thing.

With guns as an example, there are very tangible/measurable functional things like accuracy, shootability (as measured in split times), and reliability. In this regard, is my $4K wilson (1"@25yards) worth so much more than say a Kimber. To me it is because I put a high value on the functional aspects...To others this is unnecessary performance for say a carry gun. Very individual decision.

But, is say a Stan Chen (just as an example), which likely shoots no better than my WC, worth what another $3K because of the additional aesthetic beauty? Not for me because I don't put a big value on the aesthetic part. For other people though this is very important, so there is no right or wrong, you need decide what attributes in a gun are important to you, and then find your sweet spot on the cost-benefit curve.

(And just an aside, as a general rule of thumb, not an absolute, I generally avoid the most expensive in any genera as that is where there is usually the biggest disconnect in cost vs benefit, and start my evaluation for the purchase decision in the next tier down from the most-expensive-tier.)
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Last edited by combat auto; 07-21-2017 at 04:47 AM.
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  #34  
Old 07-21-2017, 06:20 AM
Guyfromohio Guyfromohio is online now
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As many have said before me, there really is a set point that only the individual can decide. I absolutely feel that a high-end gun is worth the money. I'm in a unique situation right now where I'm going to lose my job due to business closure. However, I'm getting a year's salary as severance. If I get a job immediately, I may splurge on something more expensive. However, I am completely satisfied and impressed with my VBOB. Will a Wilson give me that kind of satisfaction difference? Or do I search for a minty Python? Maybe that Dan Wesson is the set-point for my satisfaction returns.......
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  #35  
Old 07-21-2017, 06:36 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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It does come down to, "for the money", xxx brand is a good value.
Prefaced by, what any individual's budget, discretionary income is and what we can justify.
Some people are 'blessed' with not being able to see, feel, appreciate or care about those differences as you go up the firearm food chain.

Just an afterthought, after any of us chose that level right for us, it's hard to go backwards.

Last edited by Plantar5; 07-21-2017 at 06:41 AM.
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  #36  
Old 07-21-2017, 07:16 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by Handy View Post
It doesn't assume that at all. What a silly conclusion!

You can pull a slide stop and firing pin out of a $350 1911 and they will function perfectly in a $6000 1911. That doesn't mean they are identical, but the difference between them is incredibly difficult to objectively measure since both guns function without breaking or wearing out prematurely. They simply don't compare to poorly heat treated engine parts that "blow up".
Clearly you're clueless WRT the slide stop pin diameter/Barrel foot/lockup relationship.

Your post illustrates the absurdity of your own assertion. If you don't yet understand the difference between a $350 1911, and a $6K 1911, other than the Brand itself, you never will.
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  #37  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:35 AM
tarosean tarosean is offline
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That's the equivalent of Honda offering a 3 liter Accord in versions ranging from $22,000 to $400,000.
No, thats the equivalent of all the automobile manufactures making a 3 liter Accord, except just a few.
Its far easier to name manufactures that dont produce a 1911 than ones that do. All with their own version of whats "ideal".


The diminishing returns arguments are nothing more than personal justification. That will vary far to much from person to person to give any type of valid data.
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  #38  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:38 AM
Dddrees Dddrees is online now
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Originally Posted by stormdragon View Post
It's a economic concept I ran into in college. The idea is that as you spend more for something you get higher quality, but there comes a point where the return you get in quality begins to diminish even as you spend more money.

Speaking about 1911 guns from stock manufactured to full out custom, where is YOUR point of diminishing returns, even if you can't really afford to get up to that point right now.

Leaving aside the mostly or entirely cosmetic or aesthetic changes, many of which can cost a great deal, at what point in dollars do you think that PoDR is reached?

Just curious. For me, it's probably around $3000 even though I don't have but one gun, not to mention a 1911, that rises above that line.
For some that won't be anything more than what the cheapest 1911 cost, yet others see there is no point as even the more they pay they get even more from it. I mean how did you set your mark of $3000 anyway. You certainly didn't come forth with any concrete criteria. You just set a dollar mark. Besides I would imagine all $3000 1911s are not equal. I'll bet you I could spend that much on a 1911 and most of the money my go to engraving and the quality of the parts used could be cheaper parts.

Really when it comes to the price people are willing to pay the criteria someone uses vs another can vary and the only agreement you'll find are those who agree with you. Because after all I'll bet you could find a 1911 that goes bang and hits the target for much less. I hear a Rock Island Armory 1911 will do that. So why would anyone pay anymore than that? Isn't that what guns were meant to do?

Last edited by Dddrees; 07-21-2017 at 08:40 AM.
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  #39  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:53 AM
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I think the real answer here is "Your Milage May Vary!" But then again, YMMV on this answer..
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  #40  
Old 07-21-2017, 09:39 AM
Mooseman1776 Mooseman1776 is offline
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Originally Posted by racoonbeast60 View Post
1911s are man jewelry. They are worth whatever you pay for them as long as your money gets you what you want and you love them. Ask your wife at what point a diamond arrangement reaches the point of diminishing returns.

I know Glock guys love their guns because they have as much personality and soul as a Stanley framing hammer. I imagine in that arena, you could reach a point of diminishing returns real quick.

But, 1911 guys are not like that. We form relationships and expect more from real guns. No price range on that. Let your desires and your wallet take you as far as you need to go to be happy and proud.

Depends on how you evaluate things.

yeah what he said!
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  #41  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:03 AM
Chief1297 Chief1297 is offline
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Based on my shooting ability it is hard to justify anything over $600 but I have them. I would shoot the same with a $3k gun. Just an observation.
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  #42  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:22 AM
wc145 wc145 is offline
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For me the point of diminishing returns with factory built 1911s is anything above Les Baer money. The reason I say that is because you can't get a 1911 built by a quality gunsmith with the same features, components, and amount of hand work as a Les Baer pistol for the same cost. On the other hand, once you get past that point, above say, $2500-$3000, now you're getting into the price range that you can get an equivalent pistol, or better, custom built. When you're talking about a $6000 Wilson, you can spend the same money and have Jason Burton build you a gun. Personally, I'll take a custom built gun over a factory gun for the same money every time.
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  #43  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:23 AM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is online now
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A lot of the answer is ones disposable income, the intended use of the pistol, ones ability, ones past experience, and of course how one looks at things.

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  #44  
Old 07-21-2017, 10:33 AM
phil_gretz phil_gretz is offline
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Competitive Shooters?

I have a friend and co-worker who is the current captain of the Air Force pistol team. His team travels regularly to meets and they have a group of armorers who build and maintain their guns. They shoot in different categories and calibers, and there are guidelines that specify what is permissible in each category (e.g., Service weapons must meet standard configuration rules, etc.).

Anyway, my point is that he has had several high performance 1911s built for competitive shooting, and these guns are built from the ground up with parts that he and the armorer choose. I can't recall exactly what he spends per pistol (and he's not here today), but I think that it's in the $2500 range. The armorer's time is not included in that price.

That's probably where the functional "diminishing returns" point is for his type of shooting.

Maybe this isn't helpful at all... PG
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  #45  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:05 AM
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Is there a Point of Diminishing Return 1911 wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy View Post
I don't know if I could set a price. But my starting point would be the cost of buying a stainless Caspian slide and frame that were hand fit to each other and have whatever machining options Caspian offers, plus the cost of a Kart barrel and high quality small parts.

I would guess such a custom pistol would come in for under a $1000, but that's with some of my labor. If the pistol were to be finished instead of stainless or I didn't want to do any of the assembly work, add the shop rate. You're still under $1500 at that point.

her.

Holy $hit, I must be shopping at the wrong place, please tell me who is sourcing your high quality parts, please.. and your gunsmith, who is going to work for at least a month for a couple of hundred $$$, give me his contact info, actually never mind, at those rates he's probably backed up for the next 100 years.

My current build;

Caspian slide 446 + 160 checkering
Caspian frame 392
Fitting 115

Harrison Design
Hammer, Sear, Disconnector 135
Firing pin stop 26
Firing pin .38/9mm 10
Extractor 33
Plunger tube 15
Hammer strut 19
Trigger solid medium length 27
Pin set 25
Front Sight 40
Rear sight 90

Wilson Combat
5" bull barrel 200
Bulletproof grip safety 95
Bulletproof magazine release 32
Full length guide rod and reverse plug 37
Reverse plug 16
Bulletproof ambi-safety 161
Bulletproof slide stop 62
Bulletproof magwell 190
Spring 16
Ejector 33
Barrel links 6

VZ grips 80
Screws and bushings 30

Total 2491

I'm in $2500 just for parts and that doesn't include assembly. It's going to take me months to put all this together in a final fit and finish that's on par with my Wilson Supergrades... months!

I think there is an old adage, something like it takes 10% of the time to do 90% of the work and 90% of the time to do the last 10%.

Sure I myself or a low end smith could just slap this thing together and it would look like amateur hour but to precisely file and sand and polish each and every hand-fit part by hand-fit part so that the finished product feels like one solid piece of forged steel and looks like a fine work of art it is unbelievably tedious work and takes a considerable amount of time and talent.

True story, I was truing the front strap in preparation for checkering on this build and to the naked eye it looks pretty straight from the factory but it's not.

I showed my wife the frame when I started, and then I spent hours filing high spots, and then Dykem Blue, and filing more high spots, and Dykem Blue, and about 3 hours later it was finally ready for checkering.

My wife comes in to check on me and wondering what I've been doing for the last 3 hours and I show here the frame. She says I hear you filing and filing for hours and it looks the same as it did before, and she wonders what I was really doing in there?

Well anyway I think many people are simply unaware of the cost of high end parts that go into a $5k build and the unbelievable amount of time, skill, and experience required from an expert smith.

And the above is just a standard build, start throwing in features like; flush cut and reverse crown barrels, any additional checkering, carry cuts, french borders, barrel fluting, etc. and we're looking at closer to $6k.

Sure an expert smith could probably do in 1/3 of the time it takes me but that still is at least a month and I don't know any expert smiths that work for a couple hundred dollars a month.

So factor in the cost of high-end parts and an expert smith, next consider all the costs associated with running a large scale business (staffing, rent, electric, insurance, advertising, equipment, licenses, R&D, service, support, etc.) and it all adds up pretty quick.

The difference between a $3k pistol and a $6k pistol is all in the minute details and that's the last 10% that costs the $$$.







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Last edited by donato; 07-21-2017 at 12:02 PM.
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  #46  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:14 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donato View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handy View Post
I don't know if I could set a price. But my starting point would be the cost of buying a stainless Caspian slide and frame that were hand fit to each other and have whatever machining options Caspian offers, plus the cost of a Kart barrel and high quality small parts.

I would guess such a custom pistol would come in for under a $1000, but that's with some of my labor. If the pistol were to be finished instead of stainless or I didn't want to do any of the assembly work, add the shop rate. You're still under $1500 at that point.

her.

Holy $hit, I must be shopping at the wrong place, please tell me who is sourcing your high quality parts, please.. and your gunsmith, who is going to work for at least a month for a couple of hundred $$$, give me his contact info, actually never mind, at those rates he's probably backed up for the next 100 years.

My current build;

Caspian slide 446 + 160 checkering
Caspian frame 392
Fitting 115

Harrison Design
Hammer, Sear, Disconnector 135
Firing pin stop 26
Firing pin .38/9mm 10
Extractor 33
Plunger tube 15
Hammer strut 19
Trigger solid medium length 27
Pin set 25
Front Sight 40
Rear sight 90

Wilson Combat
5" bull barrel 200
Bulletproof grip safety 95
Bulletproof magazine release 32
Full length guide rod and reverse plug 37
Reverse plug 16
Bulletproof ambi-safety 161
Bulletproof slide stop 62
Bulletproof magwell 190
Spring 16
Ejector 33
Barrel links 6

VZ grips 80
Screws and bushings 30

Total 2491

I'm in $2500 just for parts and that doesn't include assembly. It's going to take me months to put all this together in a final fit and finish that's on par with my Wilson Supergrades... months!

I think there is an old adage, something like it takes 10% of the time to do 90% of the work and 90% of the time to do the last 10%.

Sure I myself or a low end smith could just slap this thing together and it would look like amateur hour but to precisely file and sand and polish each and every hand-fit part by hand-fit part so that the finished product feels like one solid piece of forged steel it is unbelievably tedious work and takes a considerable amount of time.

True story, I was truing the front strap in preparation for checkering on this build and to the naked eye it looks pretty straight from the factory but it's not.

I showed my wife the frame when I started, and then I spent hours filing high spots, and then Dykem Blue, and filing more high spots, and Dykem Blue, and about 3 hours later it was finally ready for checkering.

My wife comes in to check on me and wondering what I've been doing for the last 3 hours and I show here the frame. She says I hear you filing and filing for hours and it looks the same as it did before, and she wonders what I was really doing in there?

Well anyway I think many people are simply unaware or the cost of high end parts that go into a $5k build and the unbelievable amount of time, skill, and experience required from an expert smith.

And the above is just a standard build, start throwing in features like; flush cut and reverse crown barrels, any additional checkering, carry cuts, french borders, barrel fluting, etc. and we're looking at closer to $6k.

Sure an expert smith could probably do in 1/3 of the time it takes me but that still is at least a month and I don't know any expert smiths that work for a couple hundred dollars a month.

So factor in the cost of high-end parts and an expert smith, next consider all the costs associated with running a large scale business (staffing, electric, insurance, advertising, equipment, licenses, R&D, etc.) and it all adds up pretty quick.

The difference between a $3k pistol and a $6k pistol is all in the minute details and that's the last 10% that costs the $$$.







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Thank you for bringing numbers into this, some people understand how much these things really cost and others just theorize.

It's like someone insisting they can turbo their B16 honda (it's always the Honda guys) for $1500 when in reality it takes closer to $4000 and lots of time/skill.

There is also like you pointed out a simply massive amount of subtle work put in to make a truely wonderful machine, some people can see/feel/hear/discern this and others can't.
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  #47  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:32 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is online now
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Donato- Pretty good synopsis, though its not really a good comparison to a semi custom factory build- manufacturers don't pay full retail to make or aquire parts... one could likely source quality parts for a build for $1500 on the low end... and the sky is the limit.

The cost of parts someone like WC is probably half, a third, or less than retail- they mass produce their own parts. They still have the expense of 120+ hours of skilled labor....

A one man shop likely pays more than a manufacturer for parts- but not full retail either...

I do agree that much of the labor expense is in getting that last small measure of perfection in the details...
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Last edited by wccountryboy; 07-21-2017 at 11:34 AM.
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  #48  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:55 AM
00 Buck 00 Buck is offline
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To me, yes. Anything beyond a nice Colt 1911 that is reliable and groups decent is fluff and I personally wouldn't waste my money on it. So around $1,500.

Around $1,000 for a series 70 or Wiley 5", and the rest on some refinement and small parts upgrade.


Rifles are different. I still prefer durable synthetic stocks over fancy wood, etc... too.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:56 AM
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donato donato is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Donato- Pretty good synopsis, though its not really a good comparison to a semi custom factory build- manufacturers don't pay full retail to make or aquire parts... one could likely source quality parts for a build for $1500 on the low end... and the sky is the limit.

The cost of parts someone like WC is probably half, a third, or less than retail- they mass produce their own parts. They still have the expense of 120+ hours of skilled labor....

A one man shop likely pays more than a manufacturer for parts- but not full retail either...

I do agree that much of the labor expense is in getting that last small measure of perfection in the details...


Yes I understand that completely, I was just commenting on another members post who is not WC or a custom one man shop.

WC can probably mass produce the parts for a fraction of the cost on paper, but I don't think the cost of operating expenses factor in to the cost per part.

As far as a custom shop, I think average markup is around 20% over manufacturers cost but I could be incorrect on that one?


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  #50  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:04 PM
Iceman33 Iceman33 is offline
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For me, currently, my point of diminishing returns is my Dan Wesson VBOB. None of the Wilson/Baer/Brown guys want to hear that all the parts are hand fit (less so than the higher priced brands due to prior CNC) or forged or that it comes with a match barrel or that the finish withstands scuffs and scratches better than anything their brand has to offer. Yep, the Dan Wesson Valor is IT!

Having said that...the minute I can afford a Wilson Combat X-TAC, then THAT will be my point of diminishing returns!
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