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  #1  
Old 05-24-2020, 04:37 PM
filson filson is offline
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1938 Colt 1911A1

Shown on Gunbroker as a 1938 but the serial number reflects a very early serial numbered 1939 Navy pistol. RIA refurbished with the proper marks.
Colt markings appear correct on the slide, barrel, frame. Am I missing something that would indicate the pistol is not authentic? A fake?

www.gunbroker.com/item/868181610
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2020, 05:19 PM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Better burn your SN list, because that number is smack in the middle of 1938 production. It's been arsenal rebuilt, of course, so it'll be interesting to see how high it goes.
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  #3  
Old 05-24-2020, 05:41 PM
filson filson is offline
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To all...
Mia Culpa. Old eyes and evidently becoming dyslexic to boot.
dsk... Perhaps you can remove the thread.
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  #4  
Old 05-24-2020, 05:51 PM
Florida Yankee Florida Yankee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Better burn your SN list, because that number is smack in the middle of 1938 production. It's been arsenal rebuilt, of course, so it'll be interesting to see how high it goes.

Iím a lover of the 1911. Have several .45 Colts and even Kimber and carry a Delta Elite as a sidearm bowhunting pigs.

Not to be a pain, but could you please enlighten me whatís going on here ?

Is this gun a fraud of sorts and please explain.

Is this gun a movie star, please explain.

Thank you and sorry to bother you.


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  #5  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by filson View Post
To all...
Mia Culpa. Old eyes and evidently becoming dyslexic to boot.
dsk... Perhaps you can remove the thread.
Naaaa... you're just making me feel better about some of the stoopid stuff I've said on here.

Florida Yankee, 1938 production Colt M1911A1s are extremely rare, possibly harder to find than Singers even. I don't see any evidence of fakery on this one, although the double-stamped numbers under the firing pin stop did raise an eyebrow with me. The seller is fairly honest and I've recently done business with them, but to be truthful they don't know as much about 1911s as they probably should.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #6  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:17 PM
Florida Yankee Florida Yankee is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Naaaa... you're just making me feel better about some of the stoopid stuff I've said on here.

Florida Yankee, 1938 production Colt M1911A1s are extremely rare, possibly harder to find than Singers even. I don't see any evidence of fakery on this one, although the double-stamped numbers under the firing pin stop did raise an eyebrow with me. The seller is fairly honest and I've recently done business with them, but to be truthful they don't know as much about 1911s as they probably should.

Ahhh

So we are talking a rare piece possibility here !

Would it be possible to restamp a gun for reissue or something ?

If not, double serial numbers to me is an issue. Not worth the $$$$$


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  #7  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:46 PM
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The numbers underneath the slide were stamped by hand. What you're looking at is hammer bounce.
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  #8  
Old 05-26-2020, 12:24 PM
Began Began is offline
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I didn't see the crossed cannons ordinance stamp? Gun doesn't appear to be re-finished. Wonder why it's not there.
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  #9  
Old 05-26-2020, 02:08 PM
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The crossed cannons stamp wasn't used until late 1942.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #10  
Old 05-26-2020, 04:44 PM
Began Began is offline
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The crossed cannons stamp wasn't used until late 1942.
That explains it! Thanks!
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  #11  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:27 PM
shooter5 shooter5 is offline
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FWIW: the battleship USS North Carolina was issued a number of 1937's according to its inventory sheet (the typed reverse side inventory sheet possibly dates to an inventory compiled for its 1947 de-commissioning). The highest S/n listed is # 712347.
I am hoping member CPL Norton's archival research can uncover BB-60's original issue inventory of 250 pistols when it was commissioned on 9 April 1941: I am willing to bet the Showboat was issued 1938's, as well.
Attached Thumbnails
ORD 571 M1911 Custody Record Card BB 55 USS NC.jpg   ORD 571 M1911A1 SNs ReverseSide.jpg  

Last edited by shooter5; 05-26-2020 at 06:30 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2020, 07:01 PM
1saxman 1saxman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Began View Post
I didn't see the crossed cannons ordinance stamp? Gun doesn't appear to be re-finished. Wonder why it's not there.
Pistol was Parkerized at RIA. Was originally blued.
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  #13  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Gun doesn't appear to be re-finished.
Vintage refinishing techniques often closely resemble an original finish as the same chemicals and equipment were used as the factory. That's why this pistol has a finish that looks like any other WW2-era Colt that has been Parkerized. But like 1saxman said the original finish on 1938s was actually a brushed blue. By the same token a lot of 80 year-old reblues look factory original as well. That is why you have to go off of the inspection stamps and other manufacturing steps that took place after the original finish had been applied.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:29 PM
filson filson is offline
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I believe the pistol sold for $3002, out the door, shipping and all that.
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:39 PM
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Probably a fair price, all things considered.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #16  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:57 PM
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1938

It was a steal !!!! Great, rare pistol. Matching serial numbers. A real example of American History. That money won't buy you much in today's market except fradulent/garage reworked guns.
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  #17  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:36 AM
Began Began is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Vintage refinishing techniques often closely resemble an original finish as the same chemicals and equipment were used as the factory. That's why this pistol has a finish that looks like any other WW2-era Colt that has been Parkerized. But like 1saxman said the original finish on 1938s was actually a brushed blue. By the same token a lot of 80 year-old reblues look factory original as well. That is why you have to go off of the inspection stamps and other manufacturing steps that took place after the original finish had been applied.
I don't know that much about pistols from this early era. Thanks for the info.
The finish looks almost identical to the dualite finish on my original 1943 Colt.
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  #18  
Old 05-27-2020, 10:57 AM
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Your 1943 Colt should be Parkerized, not Dulite. Singers, early Remington Rands and Ithacas, and all Union Switch & Signal pistols were Dulite blued. Colts were oven blued until 1941 at around #734,000-736,000, then Parkerized afterwards. Very late in 1944 Colt began switching to a new finish called Parko-Lubrite, basically a Parkerizing that was very smooth to the touch.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #19  
Old 05-27-2020, 01:51 PM
Florida Yankee Florida Yankee is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
The crossed cannons stamp wasn't used until late 1942.

You are a walking encyclopedia!!! Thank you for sharing your wealth of Colt info !!!


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  #20  
Old 05-27-2020, 02:46 PM
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My encyclopedia is Charles Clawson and Scott Meadows.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #21  
Old 05-27-2020, 05:27 PM
bluemja2002 bluemja2002 is offline
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Originally Posted by gbethu View Post
It was a steal !!!! Great, rare pistol. Matching serial numbers. A real example of American History. That money won't buy you much in today's market except fradulent/garage reworked guns.
They were selling it for $4500 on their website before they put it to auction
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  #22  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:13 PM
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The guy(s) who run Legacy Collectibles know their German handguns, like Lugers, P38s and PPKs. They do not know much about US martial arms like the 1911. I've seen them describe pistols wrong, and nearly every 1911 on their site is hideously overpriced. At the same time however they often have decent prices on the stuff they actually know about, and I recently bought a wartime P38 from them. It wasn't a bargain, but it was the real deal and I was confident they wouldn't screw me. They also offered a 7-day inspection period which was nice.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #23  
Old 05-28-2020, 03:03 PM
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Speaking of which, here is a video of a 1944 Colt they recently sold:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP5UoAcq_SE

Nice ensemble, but notice when he starts talking about the pistol itself and 1911s in general how many factual errors he gives out. He could really use some copies of Clawson's and Meadows' books.

BTW also notice how the pistol is supposedly as-issued to the WW2 vet, but it's got an M1911 grip safety and stamped trigger.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #24  
Old 06-01-2020, 11:47 PM
abtex1 abtex1 is offline
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Something was up with this gun. People must have returned it. Offered for sale three times by these guys since last fall with the most recent time in the gunbroker offering above.. Webpages on their site have expired but I kept screenshots of the offerings.

First offering 11/06/19 $7995:


Second offering 04/23/20 $4500:
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  #25  
Old 06-02-2020, 08:28 AM
kxk kxk is offline
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"Something was up with this gun."

"Something was up with this gun. People must have returned it. Offered for sale three times by these guys since last fall with the most recent time in the gunbroker offering above.." I think that this statement is literally correct. However I also think that the hoopla and BS that accompany the description caught many novice collectors with their pants down, and when they were all fired up about the rarest 1911 and only a few in advanced collections, then testosterone took over and one of the bidders plunked down his money without really figuring out the desirability of this reworked 1938. Gordon is probably correct in saying that the gun is a steal at $3002, because an original 1938 in excellent condition might go for $50K. However with most guns, and especially very high end guns, there is a huge premium attached to condition, not to mention originality. Modest collectors probably consider paying $10K or even $5K for any gun to be something that would result in a divorce. Then when something like this gun pops up and looks like it could be gotten for less than $5K, emotion takes over. Only when the gun gets in their hands do they realize that it really looks like a Parkerized rework, and not what an original 1938 looks like. Then the modest collector gets a earful about how much he spent on "That Damn Gun", and back it goes, probably at a loss. Back to Gordon's comment, I might have bought this 1938 many years ago when I was trying to buy a first 1938 from a friend who had one that was refinished, (blued) but refinished. I tried to purchase it for several years but he would not sell. Finally I gave up on it after an attack of sanity.
Years later a very nice original showed up ( At a very high price). As soon as I heard about it, it was a done deal, I scraped up the $ somehow. However I have never regretted that brief period of sanity that caused me to forget the refinished 1938, and after that I would probably never consider a refinished example. I also suspect that Gordon would also never seriously consider purchasing a refinished 1938 because he has original 1938s. I suppose that if I found an otherwise original but refinished 1938 for a shooter price, I would buy it, but I would only be spending shooter money.
To conclude, "Something was up with this gun." But the something is that it is refinished, and it will never be an original 1938 again. The reality of this takes some time to set in.
I remember an anecdote relating to a good friend who many years ago told me that he wanted a 1939 NAVY to carry. I know that this friend was very knowledgeable about 1911/1911A1 prices, and he said he still wanted one and was confident that I could scare something up. I was nowhere near as confident but kept his request in mind. Within the year, I got a list of guns that a collector in Florida was selling, and on that list was a refinished 1939 NAVY with a replaced front sight. It was pretty cheap ($800) so I had him send it to me. When I got it, the finish was original and the front sight had been changed to a wide one and the rear sight had a wider notch. I shewed it to my friend and he loved it, especially the sights because he could not see the original thin sights. He also loved the $800 price and thought that I was a magician. I saw the gun some 25 years later and regrettably most of that beautiful blued finish had turned to patina after being carried in an underarm holster for 25 years, but I like to think that he enjoyed it every one of those 25 years.
Best Karl
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