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  #1  
Old 05-24-2020, 08:21 AM
Amp Mangum Amp Mangum is offline
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1911 - 9mm vs 45 ACP

Larry Vickers breaks down his thoughts on 9mm versus 45 ACP. He also gives some tips on buying and customizing your own 1911.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTJlyGxcoJo
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2020, 09:32 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Good points.
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  #3  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:07 AM
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is online now
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1911-guns live here in different calibers, but the personal favorite is .45 ACP. The combination of the design and the wonderful cartridge is unbeatable.

A 9mm Government Model lives here, but I can't be a true believer in the 9mm cartridge.
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  #4  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:15 AM
fnfalman fnfalman is online now
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Meh. I’ll stick with .38 Super and 10mm.
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  #5  
Old 05-24-2020, 02:39 PM
warbird1 warbird1 is offline
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Very good video. Thanks OP.
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  #6  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:29 PM
justbillin justbillin is offline
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It's a side arm and has weaknesses simply from that, but a .45 has a big f-in tube that has way more "gulp" factor when looking straight at the muzzle.

I've always looked at the caliber comparison more like if you were armed only something you could throw...would it be a brick or a billiard ball???

Last edited by justbillin; 05-24-2020 at 06:35 PM.
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  #7  
Old 05-24-2020, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
Meh. I’ll stick with .38 Super and 10mm.
Why not .357 Sig?
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  #8  
Old 05-24-2020, 07:04 PM
fnfalman fnfalman is online now
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Why not .357 Sig?
Fake caliber.
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2020, 08:27 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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Fake caliber.
Good one!
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2020, 08:38 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Good grief......

It's 2020.....the caliber wars are still going on???
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  #11  
Old 05-24-2020, 09:34 PM
passx passx is offline
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^^^ amen Otto !
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Good grief......

It's 2020.....the caliber wars are still going on???
He didn't talk about the various merits of the calibers themselves. He was discussing the practical differences between running a 9mm 1911 vs a .45 1911, and made some pretty good points to consider depending on which one you choose to go with.
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2020, 10:33 PM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is online now
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Call me old school, an old fuddy duddy, too stubborn to be enlightened, whatever.
I'll stick with 45acp in all steel.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
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  #14  
Old 05-25-2020, 01:21 AM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is online now
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TRSOtto and friends, the "Caliber Wars" are only "over" for those who suddenly don't believe in the laws of Physics and have surrendered their Reason and Logic to "Feds with an Agenda" - just ignoring little things like twice as much ENERGY having an effect on the target, or punching a larger hole taking out more blood vessels and nerves, doing more physical damage, etc., etc. The 9MM has been proven as mediocre ever since it was rejected by the US Military 100 years ago!

And no one in the gun industry, to include Vickers and Wilson, are EVER going to say a word to keep people from completely buying a complete new "Wardrobe" of new 9MM high $$$ purchases of Guns and Magazines from their Company - regardless of what they might privately think. The "9MM Fad" is a windfall and a Godsend to the entire gun industry's income stream - even if it is silly and a step backward, and I am sure they can see it is smart business to just shut up and take the money people are forcing into their pockets, "wanting to be with the In Crowd", all care of the FBI's latest gun change. And they are probably already planning for the next phase, when the 9MM is found wanting - and people realize they need to buy real calibers again....

I do understand that popularity draw of "Wanting to be like (and to be liked by) everybody else", and "go along to get along" and how difficult it is to stand up and tell the Emperor he is walking around naked, but I thought all of us here were older than that.

And I find it doubly disturbing that otherwise rational people are swayed by the phony Opinion from a Federal Agency so visibly guilty of recent, undeniable self serving malfeasance on a professional level (a couple of times, recently, ask Flynn and Trump), that dreamed up a story to justify choosing wimp guns so a few in the currently required "diversity" hiring pool might be able to qualify....particularly after said Agency dumped the 9MM so hard just a few years ago. Were they crazy then or are they crazy now?

Instead of staying with height/weight requirements based on physical ability testing and requiring a certain level of performance, the Politics of PC (Political Correctness) is making ALL the decisions now. More bullets, less recoil, all that matters. Favoring the less able, at the expense of those who should have gotten the jobs due to actual ability to do them. And we are all going along, nodding our heads and smiling.

Fortunately, thanks to our Veterans, (Happy Memorial Day, Guys) it is still a Free Country - and we can all (so far) voice our opinions! CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 05-25-2020 at 01:33 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-25-2020, 05:49 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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After watching the vid which was fine, but very incomplete as far as making any sort of a decision (which of course should be expected in such a short vid), but before a newbie decides 9 vs 45, read the lastest SD shooting thread in the "Armed Citizen's" folder. It took 10 rounds (all hits) of which 9 where right on the "X" - that is the chest - to stop the attacker. We don't know for sure, but that was most likely a 9mm gun. We do know it was shot by a PRO-shooter (yep, that is right, a pro-shooter and Girl-friend got attacked). He optimized for his shot placement 100%, but likely not his ballistic-load.

So yes, shot placement is the top priority, but you also want the most potent round you can shoot well. If you can handle a 45 it is a better choice for SD, especially in a 1911 which has a decent amount of weight for recoil mitigation, and is limited (relatively) in capacity (so you are not getting a mega-sized mag if one chooses 9mm). And if you are getting up there in age, like me for example ;-), you can opt for a comped 45 1911 (there are a variety of carry-comp models out there) where you get the best of both worlds, low recoil, potent round.

I do own 3 38 super 1911's and one 9mm plastic fantastic, that I do use occasionally for SD, but my top pick is always 45 whether plastic (PPQ-45 (no comp)) or 1911 in HST 230 (9mm has nothing in the same class as HST 230 as far as ballistic performance on target).

No absolutes of course, just M.O. and what works for me.
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Last edited by combat auto; 05-25-2020 at 06:04 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-25-2020, 09:12 AM
Obi-Wan Obi-Wan is offline
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1911 - 9mm vs 45 ACP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
TRSOtto and friends, the "Caliber Wars" are only "over" for those who suddenly don't believe in the laws of Physics and have surrendered their Reason and Logic to "Feds with an Agenda" - just ignoring little things like twice as much ENERGY having an effect on the target, or punching a larger hole taking out more blood vessels and nerves, doing more physical damage, etc., etc. The 9MM has been proven as mediocre ever since it was rejected by the US Military 100 years ago!

And no one in the gun industry, to include Vickers and Wilson, are EVER going to say a word to keep people from completely buying a complete new "Wardrobe" of new 9MM high $$$ purchases of Guns and Magazines from their Company - regardless of what they might privately think. The "9MM Fad" is a windfall and a Godsend to the entire gun industry's income stream - even if it is silly and a step backward, and I am sure they can see it is smart business to just shut up and take the money people are forcing into their pockets, "wanting to be with the In Crowd", all care of the FBI's latest gun change. And they are probably already planning for the next phase, when the 9MM is found wanting - and people realize they need to buy real calibers again....

I do understand that popularity draw of "Wanting to be like (and to be liked by) everybody else", and "go along to get along" and how difficult it is to stand up and tell the Emperor he is walking around naked, but I thought all of us here were older than that.

And I find it doubly disturbing that otherwise rational people are swayed by the phony Opinion from a Federal Agency so visibly guilty of recent, undeniable self serving malfeasance on a professional level (a couple of times, recently, ask Flynn and Trump), that dreamed up a story to justify choosing wimp guns so a few in the currently required "diversity" hiring pool might be able to qualify....particularly after said Agency dumped the 9MM so hard just a few years ago. Were they crazy then or are they crazy now?

Instead of staying with height/weight requirements based on physical ability testing and requiring a certain level of performance, the Politics of PC (Political Correctness) is making ALL the decisions now. More bullets, less recoil, all that matters. Favoring the less able, at the expense of those who should have gotten the jobs due to actual ability to do them. And we are all going along, nodding our heads and smiling.

Fortunately, thanks to our Veterans, (Happy Memorial Day, Guys) it is still a Free Country - and we can all (so far) voice our opinions! CC


Well put. I completely agree. The 9mm is ”just as good” stuff is like the new math for pistols. Today’s plastic pistols and use of 9mm we're developed to expand the market to a larger population of users, but the misinformation that followed was not necessary. It's gun fake news, which is reinforced by many YouTube channels that make money for video bloggers.

9mm is better than 45 acp is like NYT's Paul Krugman providing unbiased political writing.

Last edited by Obi-Wan; 05-25-2020 at 09:29 AM.
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  #17  
Old 05-25-2020, 09:41 AM
K38 K38 is offline
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The .45 can always be loaded down for practice if (as with Hackathorn) arthritis keeps you from shooting boxes and boxes of hotter/heavier loads at a time. It's a pretty versatile caliber. But if you don't reload, it is indeed cheaper to buy factory 9mm.
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  #18  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:50 AM
magazineman magazineman is online now
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And .22 Lr is even cheaper than that. But that doesn't change what I'd rather have in a fight.
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  #19  
Old 05-25-2020, 10:56 AM
Amp Mangum Amp Mangum is offline
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Originally Posted by K38 View Post
The .45 can always be loaded down for practice if (as with Hackathorn) arthritis keeps you from shooting boxes and boxes of hotter/heavier loads at a time. It's a pretty versatile caliber. But if you don't reload, it is indeed cheaper to buy factory 9mm.
Exactly, I shoot CDP division in IDPA and my reloads make 170 power factor. A 230gr FMJ over 4.7grs of Winchester WST is a very accurate, soft shooting load.
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  #20  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:09 AM
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The 9x19mm is the most popular centerfire handgun caliber in the world by far, and second only to the 7.62x39 in common use among all centerfire cartridges. So tell me again which caliber won?
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  #21  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:40 AM
ToddRvs ToddRvs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amp Mangum View Post
Larry Vickers breaks down his thoughts on 9mm versus 45 ACP. He also gives some tips on buying and customizing your own 1911.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTJlyGxcoJo

Great video Thanks for sharing
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  #22  
Old 05-25-2020, 11:49 AM
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is online now
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I think I'm seeing old fogy-ism creeping up on me for I don't really understand the instructional need for videos illustrated with endless rapid-fire. Guess it's not exciting enough to simply show a fellow shooting for group. Oh, we hear the certain pling ... pling ... pling of steel in some of them, but any time target distance is revealed it's pitifully short yardage.

Not picking on Larry Vickers. His video on the two calibers in 1911-guns is thought-provoking and makes me want to go to the range with 1911s in .45 and 9mm today. Rapid-fire is pushed in all videos on YouTube though. It's as if rapid-fire is the only way a handgun may be correctly utilized out there in video-land.

No wonder we see examples of mindless rapid-fire shooting at the range these days.

Full Disclosure: I was young and dumb once long before internet and YouTube handgun shooting videos. We have an old family place of large acreage. Our lake cabin is situated in thick mesquite tree woods. The mesquite trees ringing the cabin have retreated 15 yards from the cabin door since the early 1970s. Reason being, we shot 'em all down over the years with what cousins and I termed as "campaign firing." We used to burn off rounds just to see how fast we could do it. .22 pistols of all kinds, Smith & Wesson K-Frame .38s, Colt .45 automatics and Model 29 .44 Magnums (sometimes dual wielded for extra fun and frolic). Long guns too, whether they be bolt-action '03A3s or M1 Carbines, or semi-automatic .22s, or shotguns: pump semi-automatic, or double-barrels (sometimes firing both barrels together for extra "manliness.")

It was: "How quickly could one empty the gun."

Thing is, even as teens we realized that ammo burnin' was all so much silliness and didn't take either it or ourselves seriously. We valued precision and shot placement when it mattered most. Seems like the difference is that now ammo burnin' is viewed as a needed skill set and positively vital. To watch YouTube shooting videos except for some of hickok45 one gains that impression.

Hah! I was 19 in this scan of an old photo taken in 1976. The Winchester Model 190 .22 automatic is in full cry in "machine gun mode" here. The favorite ol' Smith & Wesson Model 10 Heavy Barrel "Mr. Thirty Eight" is on the belt.


The Coleman fuel can didn't stand a chance.

Last edited by bmcgilvray; 05-25-2020 at 11:51 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-25-2020, 12:06 PM
Snapping Twig Snapping Twig is offline
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Let's all keep in mind the constant refrain, "modern bullet development " which makes the 9mm magically improved.

Are not these same developments available for the 45?

On a personal level, I do not find the recoil of a 1911 in 45 to be impressive. In california we are limited to a 10 round magazine, so if I use 8 round mags and one in the pipe I have 9. Not worth it to go small for two extra rounds IMO.

For a full size 1911 I see no reason to scale down the round. In a sub size SD piece, it makes sense. I have a CZ 2075 Rami, it makes sense there.

A 22 in the hand in times of need feels like the hammer of Thor, but there's no replacement for displacement.

In the Civil War black powder capped speed, so in order to increase power the caliber and weight of the round was increased.

Worked then, works now.

Physics is a constant.
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2020, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapping Twig View Post
Let's all keep in mind the constant refrain, "modern bullet development " which makes the 9mm magically improved.

Are not these same developments available for the 45?
To answer your question, while all calibers have benefited from modern developments the fact remains that slow calibers do not take advantage of modern bullet designs to the extent that faster ones do. The .45ACP is still only just above the minimum threshold for reliable expansion of JHP ammo, and with 3" compacts it still continues to be a problem. There is more wiggle room with the 9mm as virtually all loads are above 1000fps, even out of short barrels, making it easier to develop bullets that penetrate adequately and expand reliably.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2020, 03:12 PM
longarm longarm is offline
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Doesn't the 45Super™/450smc fill that "gap"? (not for 3" stuff, mind you)
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