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  #1  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:18 PM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Had a class. 8 students. Always interesting to see what people bring.

pretty much the usual suspects.

A Glock 19, another 19, Walther P22, Ruger SR 9, Glock 26, an STI, and I think a Sig 320 and a Bersa Thunder 380.

The highest score? The guy with the Bersa and he way outshot the guy with the STI who was full of excuses. He had to reshoot too.

Skill trumps the tool almost every time.

Last edited by WaterDR; 10-27-2019 at 11:24 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:23 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is offline
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I would have thought the guy with the Walther P22. I have one, accurate, soft shooting, and reliable with CCI MiniMags or Velocitors. Any bulk 22 ammo will sometimes jam.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:28 PM
frogfurr frogfurr is offline
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The students at the CCW class I attended had no guns of their own. Rather they rented 22 semi autos from the instructor of the course. They didn't know how to load a mag into these guns. Took a while.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:39 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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God bless you people that have the patience.

To do that Kind of thing. I know that this is not something that I would willingly do for people that I do not know.
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2019, 11:48 PM
Infini Infini is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Had a class. 8 students. Always interesting to see what people bring.

pretty much the usual suspects.

A Glock 19, another 19, Walther P22, Ruger SR 9, Glock 26, an STI, and I think a Sig 320 and a Bersa Thunder 380.

The highest score? The guy with the Bersa and he way outshot the guy with the STI who was full of excuses. He had to reshoot too.

Skill trumps the tool almost every time.
But did your student w the STI improve over your course of instruction?
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  #6  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:33 AM
Descartian Descartian is offline
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Skill trumps the tool almost every time.
This is true to an extent. Any skilled craftsman will tell you that the tool makes all the difference.

As a STI collector I take a STI to my LTC qualifiers and am always the highest scorer ;-). That said it always scares me how novice or inexperienced most people are in those classes.
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  #7  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:19 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Originally Posted by frogfurr View Post
The students at the CCW class I attended had no guns of their own. Rather they rented 22 semi autos from the instructor of the course. They didn't know how to load a mag into these guns. Took a while.
This is the unfortunate part. It’s great that they are making the effort, but not so great that they don’t even own a weapon. The sad part is that if they are ever faced with a dire situation, they will freeze or mess the whole thing up.
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  #8  
Old 10-28-2019, 06:22 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Had a class. 8 students. Always interesting to see what people bring.

pretty much the usual suspects.

A Glock 19, another 19, Walther P22, Ruger SR 9, Glock 26, an STI, and I think a Sig 320 and a Bersa Thunder 380.

The highest score? The guy with the Bersa and he way outshot the guy with the STI who was full of excuses. He had to reshoot too.

Skill trumps the tool almost every time.
Yup, imagine what the guy with the Bersa would have done with the STI.
What happened to the Glock fan club? We’re they doing mag dumps and shooting sideways?
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  #9  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:32 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infini View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Had a class. 8 students. Always interesting to see what people bring.

pretty much the usual suspects.

A Glock 19, another 19, Walther P22, Ruger SR 9, Glock 26, an STI, and I think a Sig 320 and a Bersa Thunder 380.

The highest score? The guy with the Bersa and he way outshot the guy with the STI who was full of excuses. He had to reshoot too.

Skill trumps the tool almost every time.
But did your student w the STI improve over your course of instruction?
Not a lick. Barely passed. Since it’s a CC class we don’t focus on any actually shooting training....but rather skill demonstration. We have separate classes for skills.

The bar in this state is very low...
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  #10  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:35 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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A friend teaches precision rifle and hunting rifle at the local indoor range. He can get a lot done at 50 yards.
He says there is hardly ever a zeroed rifle brought to class, even though it is stated as a prerequisite in the class announcement.
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  #11  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:37 AM
markm markm is offline
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What was the test? When I took a CCW class we did live fire but I don't remember any scoring, I just felt kind of safe standing way behind them.
Years ago when I qualified for our action range they told us the test was to draw and fire 5 shots in a 5" circle 7 rounds in 10 seconds, turned out it really was; ▪ Starting with hands at sides, draw and fire a 5 shot group into an 8 inch target at 7 yards in 10 seconds... two people out of around 15 failed after three attempts and one was a Portland police officer with his glock.
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  #12  
Old 10-28-2019, 09:49 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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As an instructor, I MUCH prefer to teach skills to new shooters. That’s the fun part. Unfortunately the ugly part of the business is CC classes. As you guys know, it’s mostly all legal aspects etc....

The state merely requires that the student demonstrate safe use of a firearm. Many private instructors will hand a .22 revolver to a student and have them fire 5 shots. We require 50 shots two handed and one handed at distances up to 50 ft. But frankly, neither approach really demonstrates all that much proficiency.

I can tell in about 30 seconds though how skilled a shooter is....I am sure you guys can too. How they hold, how they rack the slide, clear the weapon, etc....tells a huge story. Doesn’t matter how much tacticool they wear either 🙂

I am just shocked at what people bring.

I had to not allow a women to attend who was pregnant one time. It’s a business rule, not mine. That was awkward. Had another gal show up with a wheel gun from the 1930s. The front sight was entirely broken off.

Have had 44mag show up too and one guy with a TSO one time. He did outshoot everyone.
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  #13  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:09 AM
combat auto combat auto is offline
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Yep, absolutely skill trumps equipment, but better equipment usually raises anyone's performance including novice and expert. By how much can vary a lot though.
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Last edited by combat auto; 10-28-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:02 AM
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AndyC AndyC is offline
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Skill trumps the tool almost every time.
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  #15  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:16 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartian View Post
...That said it always scares me how novice or inexperienced most people are in those classes.
And now....they can legally carry......and feel compelled to come to the LGS where I work and insist on showing me their gun on their hip......
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  #16  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:18 PM
Welder Guy Welder Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
I am just shocked at what people bring.

.
I helped out teaching a CC class and one of the students actually brought a Ruger .45LC single action revolver. Part of the course required firing 5 shots, reload and fire 5 more in 30 seconds. He took probably about two minutes.
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  #17  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:23 PM
HT77 HT77 is offline
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The CCW class itself is often the first step for many. Lots of people in CCW classes either have never fired a gun or very seldom at best. Many never had a pistol prior to the class and they buy or borrow one just for that. The qualification obviously isn't difficult. People that inexperienced, it doesn't matter that much what they shoot. Once they get their permit they wind up taking courses about shooting basics and then advanced classes.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:36 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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I used a P7 for my class.....
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  #19  
Old 10-28-2019, 01:59 PM
tpelle tpelle is offline
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When I took my CDW class back in about 1997 or 1998 there were people in the class who did not even own a handgun. For the practical skills part of the class they simply borrowed a handgun and ammo from accommodating fellow class members.

We actually took the classroom part of the test at a local country club clubhouse. Out of consideration for the country club members, some of whom were presumed would react negatively to people openly carrying guns into the clubhouse, we were asked to bring our UNLOADED weapons to the class in a "non-gunny" container, such as briefcase, lunch box, grocery bag, whatever.

I happened to choose a seat in the front row, and there happened to be an extra empty folding table on that side of the room. A portion of the class was watching a boring video depicting some old guy reading and explaining the Kentucky statutes concerning use of deadly force. During that time the instructor (a local Sheriff Department detective who was packing a nifty two-tone BHP) would come out and pick up each student's handgun, one at a time, and take it up to the extra table, where he would clear it, check the function of the safety (if present), then do the "pencil test". As this was taking place just a few feet in front of me, I admit to letting my attention wander from the video to watch the instructor going through his function tests. Several times I saw him rack the slide to clear a pistol, only to have a round pop out of the ejection port when he racked the slide. He would just shake his head.

Last edited by tpelle; 10-28-2019 at 02:04 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:14 PM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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Skill is the name of the game.
If you've ever seen anyone using a single action who really knows how to run one you'd be amazed.
Someone who knows their way around a single action is very formatable. Reloading is slower, but by then his problem would be solved.
A SA isn't my 1st choice, but I'm far from disarmed with one.
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  #21  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:25 PM
tpelle tpelle is offline
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By the way, Kentucky this year joined the list of Constitutional Carry States. So we went from open carry and concealed carry with a permit, to open carry as well as concealed carry with no permit required. Honestly I see both good and bad in this change.

The good part is that, for example, a woman who wishes to carry a weapon for protection against a stalker or maybe a violent ex-husband or ex-boyfriend can now just buy a gun and start packing it immediately.

The bad part is that there will be people packing concealed weapons without any training whatsoever in use of deadly force, where they can and cannot carry a weapon, and who will not have benefit of the reciprocity that comes with a Concealed Deadly Weapon License. The Kentucky State Police will continue to issue and renew CDWs to those Kentuckians who want them.
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  #22  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:32 PM
VoceNoctum VoceNoctum is offline
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Originally Posted by tpelle View Post
When I took my CDW class back in about 1997 or 1998 there were people in the class who did not even own a handgun. For the practical skills part of the class they simply borrowed a handgun and ammo from accommodating fellow class members.
I took my class before Florida even required touching a gun.
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  #23  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:15 PM
bgw45 bgw45 is offline
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In TX the perfect test core is 250. One of my sons took the test with a Kahr CW380 and shot a 248. I think the barrel length is 3.1, not sure. I know for a fact I could not duplicate that score if I had multiple tries. Young eyes sure make a difference. I'd never choose that pistol to qualify. My 5" 1911s would be great.
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  #24  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:24 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Originally Posted by WaterDR View Post
Skill trumps the tool almost every time.
And the way to get that skill is to do it over and over correctly.
Trigger time.
Dry firing or at the range live.
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  #25  
Old 10-28-2019, 05:00 PM
msjdgman msjdgman is offline
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Back when I took my CPL class, there were about 20 of us, and we were quite equally divided by thirds....one third recent military commando types, one third just experienced shooters, and the last third were newbies who had never even held a gun. Two of the newbies did not receive their certificate that day. They had to come back for more personal instruction. The guns used were the typical everything you could imagine, from 40 cal glocks, to 22 semis autos, to single action 22 revolvers.
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