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  #1  
Old 04-24-2003, 08:15 AM
Car Knocker Car Knocker is offline
 
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Gun Instructor Wounded

Salt Lake Tribune, 4-24-03:

A man was airlifted to University Hospital in serious condition after an accident at a Kearns indoor shooting range, authorities said Wednesday. The man, an instructor, was teaching a woman how to shoot at Totally Awesome Guns and Range, 4075 W. 4715 South, about 7 p.m. Tuesday, when a hot piece of brass discharged from a gun and went down her blouse, said Salt Lake County sheriff's Sgt. Shane Hudson. She flinched involuntarily and accidentally shot the instructor in the thigh, he said. Authorities did not identify those involved.
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2003, 10:28 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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I know that sounds funny, but it isn't. I've seen many females show up at the indoor range wearing a low-cut blouse and always wondered what the risk was. They really should require T-shirts or other high-cut garments at the range, in addition to baseball caps, glasses, and ear protection.

It'll keep the guys' focus on safety as well.
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  #3  
Old 04-24-2003, 10:32 AM
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Ricky T Ricky T is offline
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Very unfortunate.
I've seen two women who had brass fell down their shirt during IDPA matches. Luckily, they had the proper safety mindset to set the gun down in one case and the other lady handed her gun to the SO before they proceed to jump up and down and dislodged the hot case.
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  #4  
Old 04-24-2003, 10:58 AM
AZ ERIC AZ ERIC is offline
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One of the most important rule at the indoor range is keep the gun pointed down the range. I see people braking this rule all the time. They point it sideways at the booth wall to look at their gun (I'd hate to be the guy in the next booth if the gun goes off). I was someone point a loaded gun straight up to pick something off the ground while her finger was on the trigger.

It's not a hard rule to follow. I once had a hot brass fall between my glasses and my eye, but I was able to get my finger off the trigger, keep the gun pointed down range and clear the brass.
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  #5  
Old 04-24-2003, 07:07 PM
DRB NW WA STATE DRB NW WA STATE is offline
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Yit Appens

Not to sound like something of a doofus, but after fourteen years of casual shooting something like that finally happened to me.

On a firing line at class last week, a .40 S&W case from the shooter on my left snuck behind my glasses and burned my cheek. It bounced off my head just so, and went straight down in.

I usually only wear my normal vision glasses to the range. They've served me well the aforementioned fourteen years. Well, I have a nice burn which will probably scar (ought to be interesting) to remind me that "something is better than nothing, but isn't optimal." I had everything else right, in terms of protection, but that didn't help me.

When it happened, I had the presense of mine to sweep the glasses off with the non-dominant hand, holding the pistol downrange with the other hand. I assure you it hurt, but forgetting everything for the sake of pain at the expense of endangering others (waving a cocked, locked 1911 around on the range) to address a minor burn was NOT an option.

I reholstered, left the line, picked up my glasses, and sought some (very minor) first aid. No one else even noticed. Fine with me.

Training, fellas: "professionals are predictable. Amateurs are not, and therefore dangerous." I made a mistake, but didn't compound the problem due to my (modest) training and experience. The lady in question had neither, it would seem.
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  #6  
Old 04-24-2003, 10:29 PM
pparker pparker is offline
 
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I once saw a guy come out of a foxhole yelling and holding his neck. When he moved his hand the spent - and hot - 5.56 casing was still hanging on his neck. He was still holding a loaded M-16, but fortunately didn't crank off anything.
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  #7  
Old 04-24-2003, 10:52 PM
Climb14er Climb14er is offline
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I had a piece of hot brass come back at me and hit me in the neck and get lodged next to my skin.

Ouch! That hurt big time. I just kept my cool in the 'heat' of things, pointed my pistol downrange, unloaded and cleared the slide, and got that hot brass away from my skin.

At least, I have NO cleavage.
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  #8  
Old 04-24-2003, 11:04 PM
Mus Mus is offline
 
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My Bushmaster likes to place all its hot brass in the hood of my sweatshirt. After a range session I usually have about 20-30 cases in there.

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  #9  
Old 04-24-2003, 11:48 PM
KB KB is offline
 
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The same story sort of changed a little in the DesertNews: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,480038018,00.html . Says a man was teaching a friend how to shoot when the "friend" stepped on a hot piece of brass and flinched (apparently the "friend" must have been bare foot or wearing sandels - either way, never a good idea at the gun range), discharging a .22 caliber pistol and hitting (the Instructor), in the thigh. Now, I haven't been to this particular gun range before, but I'd like to suggest a new dress code (No Shoes, No Shirt...NO SERVICE).

Last edited by KB; 04-24-2003 at 11:52 PM.
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  #10  
Old 04-25-2003, 10:33 AM
NJKimberSS NJKimberSS is offline
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ive had so much hot brass go down shirt (i now where a tight tshirt under whateve im wearing) and i have NEVER flinched so bad to have discharged my weapon, ESPECIALLY not in a direction where someone was. i vote BS on this story for several reasons:1) the gun must have been pointed towards the instructer when the previouse round was fired (brass cools quickly). 2) the lady's finger must have been on the trigger when she had the gun pointed in an unsafe direction. 3) at leas my range would never allow a low cut blouse to make it through the doors to the range.
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  #11  
Old 04-25-2003, 12:30 PM
sernow sernow is offline
 
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The thing to remember is that the weapon is your focus. Hot brass down your shirt, stuck between your glasses, hung up in your collar, stuck in your hair, too bad. It might burn, but it won't kill you. AD/NG your weapon, and it can. Safe handling of a weapon, just like any other potentially dangerous tool, needs to be taught and drilled home until it is second nature.

Mike
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  #12  
Old 04-25-2003, 04:08 PM
ParaGlock ParaGlock is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by NJKimberSS
i vote BS on this story for several reasons:1) the gun must have been pointed towards the instructer when the previouse round was fired (brass cools quickly). 2) the lady's finger must have been on the trigger when she had the gun pointed in an unsafe direction. 3) at leas my range would never allow a low cut blouse to make it through the doors to the range.
Interesting you'd choose this reasoning to call someone a liar ("vote BS on this story"):

1) I don't understand this point at all. You don't need to point a gun in any particular direction to get hot brass ejected back at you.

2) That (unsafe handling) seems to be the whole point. The woman was being taught to shoot, after all. Apparently she missed the part about keeping the muzzle pointed down range.

3) Well, since your range does things a certain way it must mean that all ranges have the same rules, right?

I do find it Interesting that the story changed so much between the two interpetations/versions. But I don't think anything as presented is cause to "vote BS on the story."

-- PG
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  #13  
Old 04-25-2003, 04:10 PM
NJKimberSS NJKimberSS is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ParaGlock
Interesting you'd choose this reasoning to call someone a liar ("vote BS on this story"):

1) I don't understand this point at all. You don't need to point a gun in any particular direction to get hot brass ejected back at you.

2) That (unsafe handling) seems to be the whole point. The woman was being taught to shoot, after all. Apparently she missed the part about keeping the muzzle pointed down range.

3) Well, since your range does things a certain way it must mean that all ranges have the same rules, right?

I do find it Interesting that the story changed so much between the two interpetations/versions. But I don't think anything as presented is cause to "vote BS on the story."

-- PG
Yes but to have pulled the trigger in the direction of the instructer she would have had to have had the gun pointed in his direction WHILE shooting which was my point...cuz any decent instructor would be behind or at least towards the rear of the instructor...this is just my opinion and i think i hold this opinion for a good reason...
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-Ruger 10/22 TNZ-now with stafford 3 way adjustable stock, volquartsen super light receiver, home done 1.75lb trigger job (yes its drop safe), and bushnell banner 3-12x mounted in burris rings...all this amounts to 0.25 inch groups edge to edge at 25 yards...not half bad...
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  #14  
Old 04-25-2003, 06:27 PM
BarbWire BarbWire is offline
 
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brass that has just been fired and hits skin can and will leave 3rd degree burns if it is not promptly removed. i blame the instructor for allowing the women to have more than one round at a time while learning gun handling and him not paying very close attention.

me i have a permanent scar over my right eye .50 inches in the shape of a half-moon from a piece of hot .50AE brass branding me by getting stuck between my glasses. i had the presence of mind to lay the gun down while jumping like a lunatic. was the first and only time i limp wristed my DE and the last time i shot it without a hat. but thats only because i had a lot of experience in where to point a gun. so i can understand her distress.
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  #15  
Old 04-25-2003, 07:25 PM
Emily W Trott Emily W Trott is offline
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We can all benefit from this incident as it provides another scenario of something which we should prepare for. A little thought about what we'll do if hot brass gets stuck in our clothing/glasses/hat, and anticipating it happening while we are shooting, will help us to react in a safer manner than this woman did. Enjoy the weekend away from the forum and Stay safe. Gary
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  #16  
Old 04-25-2003, 07:42 PM
USMCsilver USMCsilver is offline
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I got a hot .223 casing caught inbetween my flak jacket's coller and neck before and I got a2nd degree burn that looked almost like a .223 casing. I jumped up from the BZO sight-in and my range NCO about jacked me up because he didn't know what I was doing.

And then, last week, I was shooting my POS P22 which tosses brass straight back most of the time. I had on my safety glasses and what do ya know -- right over the top of the lens and rested where my glasses touched my cheek. Youch!

Anyway, hot brass sucks.
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  #17  
Old 04-25-2003, 07:57 PM
Zach Zach is offline
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Personally, I've never had the problem, but for you guys getting brass between yourself and your glasses, try wearing a ballcap during range sessions. It works with sparks thrown off of the grinding wheels or cutoff discs...
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  #18  
Old 04-25-2003, 09:24 PM
Tuukka Tuukka is offline
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Once firing an MP5A2 on our range, i had a casing come off the side wall in a perfect angle and right in at the back of my shirt, safe the SMG..put on table get the damn casing out.

At a Reserve 3 gun match during a rifle stage from an enclosed prone position spot firing my M4, the cover above me collected the casings at around my arms and since it was a +35C day and we had been at the competition area all day i shot that stage in a short sleeve shirt. A real good idea, one casing rolled to my arm and since i didnt want to waste time getting it off and ran the stag to the end i had a nice, deep shell casing print on my arm..
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  #19  
Old 04-25-2003, 10:07 PM
LafayetteGeorge LafayetteGeorge is offline
 
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I've seen it happen ...

CadillacMan & I were teaching a fellow to shoot and he got a piece of hot brass under his collar and started reaching up with his left hand waving his loaded gun around - Cadillac jumped on him and got him to put the gun down - but I can entirely understand how the lady mentioned in the original post could have shot someone.

This guy was not wearing a low cut anything, shell dropped right down the back of his neck
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  #20  
Old 04-25-2003, 10:25 PM
Double Naught Spy Double Naught Spy is offline
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This story fits a pet theory I have about NDs. Basically, many NDs (like many traffic accidents) are the result of some event occuring while a person is holding a gun ready to fire. The distraction is enough to cause the person to violate gun safety rules. Brass down the shirt, a malfunction, exciting over doing well, some sort of pain or injury during shooting, or reaction to other events going on all can contribute. While I haven't seen anyone shot that way, I have read several stories like this one that substantiate the theory. On top of that, I have witnessed many folks react to said stimuli and manage to not keep the muzzle down range and/or to sweep other folks on the firing line.
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  #21  
Old 04-25-2003, 11:57 PM
KAS KAS is offline
 
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Had a case go in my shirt once, decided that since I was trying to practice like I would have to shoot if I actually needed to that I would get the case out of my shirt and keep firing at the same time. Two bullseyes later decided I wasn't going to get the case out that way, holstered my 1911, reached up with my left hand(I'm left handed) and grabbed the case out of my shirt, and then started wondering why I never get two bullseyes in a row when I'm not distracted.

P.S. Yes brass does cool down quick, just not that quick.
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  #22  
Old 04-28-2003, 11:30 PM
ALANW ALANW is offline
 
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Just this weekend, I had not one, but two hot cases find their way down the back of my neck. How it got under my sweatshirt AND t-shirt, I'll never know. Both times, I sucked up the pain so I could safe my pistol and lay it down before untucking my shirt to get the little rascal. Still have a red mark on the back of my neck to show for it.

Like everyone's said, a little pain should be no reason to be negligent.
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  #23  
Old 04-29-2003, 12:52 AM
shaq shaq is offline
 
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After hassling my girlfriend about shooting with her stylish, tiny designer glasses instead of the shooting glass I got her, she was firing her Glock 19 & a case became wedged between the glasses & the bridge of her nose. She let out a blood-curdling scream & quickly set the Glock down on the table SIDEWAYS - not really pointing at anyone in the next stall, but not pointed downrange. The burn blistered, peeled, & now has a pinkish mark to remind her.
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  #24  
Old 04-29-2003, 07:19 AM
Double Naught Spy Double Naught Spy is offline
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shaq, it isn't just designer glasses that sometimes catch brass. I have seen this happen 3 times and in all three cases the shooters were wearing shooting glasses. If there is a big enough gap between the glasses and skin, things will find their way in. As the hot brass usually enters from the top and side, one of the best ways to prevent it from happening is to wear a ball cap or other billed hat.
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  #25  
Old 04-29-2003, 10:09 AM
M1911 M1911 is offline
 
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Quote:
On a firing line at class last week, a .40 S&W case from the shooter on my left snuck behind my glasses and burned my cheek. It bounced off my head just so, and went straight down in.
Wear a billed cap -- it greatly reduces the chance of this happening.

Regarding the incident in question, the information letter that I send each of my students prior to class recommend against open shirts/blouses for just this reason.
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