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  #26  
Old 05-25-2020, 03:38 PM
dakota1911 dakota1911 is offline
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Nice video. Interesting that the Colt Commander was developed for the Army tests for a new pistol in the late 40s that were cancelled but they were for a pistol in 9mm and the size requirements gave us the Commander size and the weight requirements gave us the Aluminum alloy frame and cut outs inside the frame. Of course when the tests were cancelled Colt went commercial with the Commander in 45ACP and 38 Super in addition to 9mm.
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  #27  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:08 AM
glider glider is offline
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A hollow point may not be the best round for defense with a 45ACP. Some articles I've read, written by knowledgeable scribes, suggest that a soft lead 230 gr ball at about 800 fps is nasty, splat. And as a bonus is very accurate.
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  #28  
Old 05-27-2020, 06:51 PM
Peter1911 Peter1911 is offline
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I suppose some of you’d say my experience is limited, perhaps it is, but my results are real to me.

After a couple of .40 cal Glocks, I bought a stainless Springfield “loaded”, .45 acp. Very nice gun, very accurate.

Then a couple of years ago, I bought a Springfield EMP, 3”, 9mm because I wanted a compact 1911 and the EMP came highly recommend by friends. When I took it to the range, I was very surprised at how snappy that little gun is. It was definitely was NOT a light recoiling gun.

Then I bought a Kimber Ultra CDP, .45 acp. Except for the bigger hole in the front, and slightly different colors, they are twins. With one big exception. The .45 has a softer recoil. Not to say it’s light, but it’s more of a push, not a hard snap with the 9mm.

The weight for the EMP is 27 ounces, the Kimber weights 25 ounces. Lighter gun, more pleasant recoil. I’ll probably sell the EMP, I just don’t like 9s.
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2020, 07:50 AM
CamoColt CamoColt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
To answer your question, while all calibers have benefited from modern developments the fact remains that slow calibers do not take advantage of modern bullet designs to the extent that faster ones do. The .45ACP is still only just above the minimum threshold for reliable expansion of JHP ammo, and with 3" compacts it still continues to be a problem. There is more wiggle room with the 9mm as virtually all loads are above 1000fps, even out of short barrels, making it easier to develop bullets that penetrate adequately and expand reliably.
For the small firearms, they make both +P and P+P rounds in .45ACP if the guns are up to it. 9mm has its place, usually in the safe. Do carry a Sig P226 or P228 on occasion. 9mm 1911, no thanks. I'd rather have it in .38Super or .45ACP.
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  #30  
Old 05-28-2020, 08:32 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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I don't know what is the matter with all you guys. The 9mm is a one stop round. I see it on TV cop shows all the time. And the TV like the internet whatever is there is real.
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  #31  
Old 05-28-2020, 09:18 AM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Originally Posted by SCfromNY View Post
I don't know what is the matter with all you guys. The 9mm is a one stop round. I see it on TV cop shows all the time. And the TV like the internet whatever is there is real.


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  #32  
Old 05-28-2020, 09:43 AM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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Perhaps some info from people who actually know their stuff regarding pistol calibers and their use for self-defense on humans would be helpful.

Discussion of Greg Ellifritz's 10 year stopping power study- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc

Federal ammo engineers discuss pistol calibers- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6kUvi72s0Y
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  #33  
Old 05-28-2020, 09:52 AM
Frank Vaccaro Frank Vaccaro is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Good grief......

It's 2020.....the caliber wars are still going on???

How about you carry what you want I'll carry what I want & we'll all be happy???
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  #34  
Old 05-28-2020, 10:42 AM
AZ Desertrat AZ Desertrat is offline
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I would not volunteer to hold my hand up, palm forward and try to catch any of the
calibers coming at me!!!
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  #35  
Old 05-28-2020, 11:00 AM
cavelamb cavelamb is online now
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I have both.
I like both.

The 45 is big and bad.
The original "fat lady"

The 9 is sleek and swevlt.
For those who don't speak it, swevlt means slender or graceful.
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  #36  
Old 05-28-2020, 11:47 AM
jr24 jr24 is offline
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I've boiled it down to this, in my preferences.

Steel 1911s are .45
Aluminum 1911s are 9mm.

Carry 1911 for me are 9mm, because my back doesn't like more than about 36 oz for an EDC.

Haven't had a chance to shoot a .38 super yet, sadly.
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  #37  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:01 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Good grief......

It's 2020.....the caliber wars are still going on???
Going strong!
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  #38  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:03 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
TRSOtto and friends, the "Caliber Wars" are only "over" for those who suddenly don't believe in the laws of Physics and have surrendered their Reason and Logic to "Feds with an Agenda" - just ignoring little things like twice as much ENERGY having an effect on the target, or punching a larger hole taking out more blood vessels and nerves, doing more physical damage, etc., etc. The 9MM has been proven as mediocre ever since it was rejected by the US Military 100 years ago!

And no one in the gun industry, to include Vickers and Wilson, are EVER going to say a word to keep people from completely buying a complete new "Wardrobe" of new 9MM high $$$ purchases of Guns and Magazines from their Company - regardless of what they might privately think. The "9MM Fad" is a windfall and a Godsend to the entire gun industry's income stream - even if it is silly and a step backward, and I am sure they can see it is smart business to just shut up and take the money people are forcing into their pockets, "wanting to be with the In Crowd", all care of the FBI's latest gun change. And they are probably already planning for the next phase, when the 9MM is found wanting - and people realize they need to buy real calibers again....

I do understand that popularity draw of "Wanting to be like (and to be liked by) everybody else", and "go along to get along" and how difficult it is to stand up and tell the Emperor he is walking around naked, but I thought all of us here were older than that.

And I find it doubly disturbing that otherwise rational people are swayed by the phony Opinion from a Federal Agency so visibly guilty of recent, undeniable self serving malfeasance on a professional level (a couple of times, recently, ask Flynn and Trump), that dreamed up a story to justify choosing wimp guns so a few in the currently required "diversity" hiring pool might be able to qualify....particularly after said Agency dumped the 9MM so hard just a few years ago. Were they crazy then or are they crazy now?

Instead of staying with height/weight requirements based on physical ability testing and requiring a certain level of performance, the Politics of PC (Political Correctness) is making ALL the decisions now. More bullets, less recoil, all that matters. Favoring the less able, at the expense of those who should have gotten the jobs due to actual ability to do them. And we are all going along, nodding our heads and smiling.

Fortunately, thanks to our Veterans, (Happy Memorial Day, Guys) it is still a Free Country - and we can all (so far) voice our opinions! CC
Good post.

I went with 9mm merely because I want to shoot more. It's fine for self defense, but I am going into it with the knowledge that 9mm is not 45 ACP and lacks the latter's power.
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  #39  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:09 PM
tomrkba tomrkba is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr24 View Post
I've boiled it down to this, in my preferences.

Steel 1911s are .45
Aluminum 1911s are 9mm.

Carry 1911 for me are 9mm, because my back doesn't like more than about 36 oz for an EDC.

Haven't had a chance to shoot a .38 super yet, sadly.
For me:

Steel Government = 45 and 10mm
Commander of any type = 9x19mm, maybe 45 (compensated, NHC Predator, or with some sort of recoil reducing system)
Officer of any build: 9x19mm
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  #40  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:22 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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[QUOTE=dsk;13165562]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapping Twig View Post
Let's all keep in mind the constant refrain, "modern bullet development " which makes the 9mm magically improved.

Are not these same developments available for the 45?
To answer your question, while all calibers have benefited from modern developments the fact remains that slow calibers do not take advantage of modern bullet designs to the extent that faster ones do. The .45ACP is still only just above the minimum threshold for reliable expansion of JHP ammo, and with 3" compacts it still continues to be a problem. There is more wiggle room with the 9mm as virtually all loads are above 1000fps, even out of short barrels, making it easier to develop bullets that penetrate adequately and expand reliably.[/QUOTE

You are totally incorrect. Modern ammo is designed to open upon being subjected to a particular level of forces not some arbitrary speed threshold, the designers can create a JHP that will open every time even at as little as 700 FPS

It's not the days of hi shock anymore and every modern load I've tried out of 3 inch .45s works as designed
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  #41  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:23 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longarm View Post
Doesn't the 45Super™️/450smc fill that "gap"? (not for 3" stuff, mind you)
It totally erases 10mms relevance and can even defeat level 3A soft armor
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  #42  
Old 05-28-2020, 01:22 PM
Xhair Xhair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr24 View Post
I've boiled it down to this, in my preferences.

Steel 1911s are .45
Aluminum 1911s are 9mm.

Carry 1911 for me are 9mm, because my back doesn't like more than about 36 oz for an EDC.

Haven't had a chance to shoot a .38 super yet, sadly.
Thank you for getting us back on topic!

Let me say that I prefer a commander size 1911 and have them both in in steel and aluminum for 45 acp and 9mm. As I have gotten much older, carrying them many more hours than shooting them, weight has become a more significant than recoil. Therefore I feel that age, size, and etc. all play a role in make the best selection for each person.
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  #43  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:12 PM
sawman556 sawman556 is offline
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I really like a LW commander in 9mm. You get an extra round or two, cheaper practice ammo, faster follow-ups and I'm fairly sure 147gr. HST's will sting a bit. If I ever need to use a firearm for SD/HD, imma hope my rifle is in my hands.
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  #44  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:42 PM
jr24 jr24 is offline
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Originally Posted by sawman556 View Post
I really like a LW commander in 9mm. You get an extra round or two, cheaper practice ammo, faster follow-ups and I'm fairly sure 147gr. HST's will sting a bit. If I ever need to use a firearm for SD/HD, imma hope my rifle is in my hands.
Agree, though I had preferred a lightweight CCO (DW Valkyrie) with 9 round mags. Felt comfortable with 10 rounds of 147 gr HST plus another couple spare mags, 1911 mags being so easy to pocket or on the belt.

Until I finally got my EDC X9 that is. Haven't shot my 1911s much this year due to focusing on the new X9.

Might need to break out the CCO once the summer really gets blazing though.
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  #45  
Old 05-28-2020, 04:23 PM
Levian Levian is online now
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
It totally erases 10mms relevance and can even defeat level 3A soft armor
I've never seen either a firearm nor ammunition chambered in .45 super/450SMC out in the wild. Those rounds might erase 10mm's relevance by simple performance if not for scarcity making them even more of a niche round than 10mm already is.

But that could just be the gun shops in my area. Seems like when it comes to pistols if it isn't 9mm or .45 they're not interested in carrying it and you're better off scrounging around Gunbroker.
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  #46  
Old 05-29-2020, 06:56 AM
g26s239 g26s239 is offline
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Originally Posted by Levian View Post
I've never seen either a firearm nor ammunition chambered in .45 super/450SMC out in the wild. Those rounds might erase 10mm's relevance by simple performance if not for scarcity making them even more of a niche round than 10mm already is.

But that could just be the gun shops in my area. Seems like when it comes to pistols if it isn't 9mm or .45 they're not interested in carrying it and you're better off scrounging around Gunbroker.
The Glock 21 and 30, HK USP full and compact and XD45 Tactical are all very usable for 45 Super and 450 SMC. I tried out the Super in my 21 and the 30 I had circa 2003 - 2006. I eventually decided to go up to 44 magnum if I needed more than 45 ACP +P.

One reason I doubt any major ammunition manufacturer will ever chamber either is that being externally the same dimension as the ACP might provide product liability if someone fired it in their XDs, Glock 36, Kimber Ultra or other unsuitable gun.
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  #47  
Old 05-29-2020, 07:00 AM
g26s239 g26s239 is offline
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Unless a 9mm 1911 falls into my lap for a price I can't pass up I'll stick with my Sig P239, Walther P5 or HK P7 PSP for a 9mm single stack. That's just my choice, I don't mind if someone else wants a 9mm 1911.
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  #48  
Old 05-29-2020, 07:47 AM
Old Corp Old Corp is offline
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I have a Colt Combat Commander in 9mm. It's one of among several M1911's of mine that run the gamut of .22, .38 Super, 10mm and all the usual .45 barrel lengths of 3", 4.25", 5".

I find, and this is only MY experience - that in a side by side comparison running drills that my BHP is just a better 9mm for ME.

I bought the Colt as a 'cheaper ammo' understudy idea, thinking it would be great for range time and benefit my shooting abilities with the other larger calibers. (I was between moves with all my loading equipment in storage)
Nope - not really. The recoil in the 9mm Commander is not that greatly different to me than the others. The whole 'understudy' idea kinda fell apart.
And, as noted, in a steel 9mm, give me a BHP every time.

There's still hope for the 9mm Commander.
Believe it can become a .38 Super without a whole lot of work.
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  #49  
Old 05-31-2020, 05:30 PM
hardluk1 hardluk1 is offline
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My commander is a 45 and a Kimber ultra is a 9mm
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