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Hey Steve! (in Allentown), What about 9's & 10's?

3K views 26 replies 9 participants last post by  ndnchf 
#1 ·
Really appreciate your thread on extractors. Just curious if you have any extractor data for use in 9's and .40's? Do you still use .010 deflection ? How big should the gap between hook and breechface be? Stuff like that. Maybe you could do an addendum to your thread about extractors? Anyway, would appreciate any info you could pass on. Was gonna pm you, but figured there'd be other people besides me that would appreciate your expertise. Thanks.
Bob
 
#2 · (Edited)
Really appreciate your thread on extractors. Just curious if you have any extractor data for use in 9's and .40's? Do you still use .010 deflection ? How big should the gap between hook and breechface be?
The concept for fitting internal 1911 extractors is the same across all calibers. The major differences include hook-to-breechface distance and whether or not the claw contacts the case.

Here are the optimum hook-to-breechface distances provided by log man:

  • 9mm - .060"
  • 40 S&W - .065"
  • 45 ACP - .075"

The reason for the differing distances has to do with the differences in rim diameters and the angle at which the cartridges feed. It is important to note that no extractor in any caliber should contact the case bevel.

Optimum deflection across all calibers remains .010".

As for the claw contacting the case, they should never touch a .45 case except, of course, after the round is fired and the extractor pulls the empty case out of the chamber. Even then the only area of the extractor that should make contact with the case is the rear face of the claw.

Most 9mm and .40 extractors are fitted so that the edge of the claw bears against the flat area just ahead of the rim but before the case bevel. For these extractors the case rim doesn't contact the extractor's tensioning wall like a .45 extractor.

Fitting a 9mm or .40 extractor exactly like a .45 is more difficult than just allowing the edge of the claw to bear against the case. It can be done and is probably the ideal way to do it but few do it this way.
 
#4 ·
After reading Steve's original extractor discussion I thought my Ruger SR1911 LW CMDR's extractor was fitted wrong. The claw is pressing on the groove. But now I see that this is in fact the way it should be.


My SR1911 is new with only about 100 rounds of hardball and 20 rounds of hollowpoints through it. But I've had occasional FTF where the cartridge doesn't go all the way into the chamber. Its stops maybe 1/4" short of battery. A bump on the rear of the slide sends it home. With the barrel removed, a loaded cartridge drops cleanly into the chamber with no hang ups. It seems to pass the shake test where it holds with gentle to moderate shaking, but with hard shaking it will eventually come out. But I'm thinking that the tension may be a little too tight. Here is what mine looks like. I'd appreciate thoughts on what to do with the extractor, if anything. Thanks.
 

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#5 ·
The claw is pressing on the groove. But now I see that this is in fact the way it should be.
If your pistol is a .45 then no, that's not the way it should be. If it's a 9mm then it can be that way or it can be fit like a .45.

As you say, the feeding problems you're having are most likely related to the extractor. If you wish the extractor to continue contacting the case as shown in your picture, all you need to do to fix the feeding problem is follow the concepts in my sticky.

Make sure the edge of the claw is smooth and not digging into the case.

Set the deflection to .010". Measuring the distance the edge of the claw moves outboard as the cartridge slides up the breechface might be a trick. I'd be interested to know the technique folks use to do this.

Set the tension.
 
#8 ·
I think your idea for a gauge is spot on.

From a closer look at your picture it looks like the claw will impact the case bevel and not allow the base of the case to be pushed back flush against the breechface. You don't want this. You can either buy a new, shorter extractor, relieve the front of the claw so that it doesn't impact the bevel, or work on the extractor's firing pin stop slot to pull the extractor back enough to clear the case bevel.

Relieving the front of the claw is an acceptable method as long as it's not overdone. Taking too much material off will weaken the extractor and may result in the hook breaking off. I can't tell you how much is too much. It's a judgement call.
 
#14 ·
A very interesting question. Maybe someone with more .38 Super knowledge than I can weigh in.

Here are the SAAMI specs for three cartridges:

.38 Super - case length .900", rim diameter .406"
.45 ACP - case length .898", rim diameter .480"
10mm - case length .992", rim diameter .425"

If I had to guess, I'd say the .38 Super hook-to-breechface distance would be would be somewhere around .70".
 
#13 ·
They can be made out of nearly any material since they don't get any wear and tear. I suggested to George Smith (EGW) the idea of making them out of plastic using a 3D printer and selling them as a set covering a range of widths in .001" increments. They'd be cheap to make and as long as they could be made in precise widths they'd be profitable. He didn't show any interest.
 
#16 ·
Here are the optimum hook-to-breechface distances provided by log man:
  • 9mm - .060"
  • 40 S&W - .065"
  • 45 ACP - .075"

Here are the SAAMI specs for rim thickness from base to extractor groove:

  • 9mm - .050"
  • 40 S&W - .055"
  • 45 ACP - .049"

I'm not seeing the correlation between rim thickness and hook-to-breechface distances. That distance may be more of a function of the angle at which the rim begins moving up behind the extractor. That angle would be influenced by the length of the cartridge. I'm just speculating here. Where are the engineers when you need them?
 
#21 · (Edited)
1911 style guns with internal extractors....

I have fit extractors for various 1911 and STI 2011 guns.....and have never felt the need for a gauge.....but I do like to make modifications to the extractor as shown in the attached graphic..... I do not like the tip of the extractor hook to touch inside the extractor groove to the main body of the case.....slight touching may be OK....proper extractor tension is also a necessary adjustment.....
 

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#22 ·
I have fit extractors for various 1911 and STI 2011 guns.....and have never felt the need for a gauge.....
I'm quite surprised by this. No intermittent, unexplained failures-to-feed? I've had experience with these malfunctions and it always turned out to be caused by excessive deflection. Once I got the deflection set correctly those malfs went away permanently. You must be using a different brand of secret sauce than I use :)
 
#23 · (Edited)
I stopped at the range on the way home from work. I put about 75 rounds of FMJ reloads through it. It ran perfectly. I did 3 things to it last night. Carefully stoned the lower edge of the claw to help the rim slip under it, reduced the extractor tension just a tad, and polished the feed ramp and chamber top a little. I'll go back next week and run it again. Thanks for the help!
 
#25 ·
Extractor issues....

No intermittent, unexplained failures-to-feed? I've had experience with these malfunctions and it always turned out to be caused by excessive deflection.
I have built quite a few guns in various calibers, but if I have failures to feed, more often than not, it is a problem with the barrel fit and sometimes the magazines...…

I reload all of my ammo for competition and range practice, and I always use JHP bullet profiles since they are more accurate...… Usually, if a gun will feed JHP bullets, it will feed all bullet profiles....

My shooting buddy got a new STI 2011 Stacatto C-2 from STI after his STI 2011 9mm Guardian had a cracked slide. When we started testing the new gun, he had several issue with failure to feed. I took the slide off and the extractor tension was a bit too tight, so the back of the 9mm case would not slide up the breech face properly to feed. That worked for 2 out of his four mags. He tried two different STI 2011 9mm mags that I own, and no failures to feed. We stopped by my place later, and I went over the two mags that had issues......the feed lips had spread apart too much, and the rounds in the mag were sitting too high...… I was able to bend/tweak the feed lips so the rounds at the top of the mag were not as high, and when we hand cycled a bunch of dummy rounds, there were no failures to feed.....:)
 
#26 ·
I have built quite a few guns in various calibers, but if I have failures to feed, more often than not, it is a problem with the barrel fit and sometimes the magazines...…
You certainly have way more experience than I in building 1911s. And yet there are some highly skilled and experienced 1911 'smiths who pay strict attention to setting the amount of extractor deflection.

Who knows? The eternal mystery of the 1911. I wonder if Brownells sells JMB Magic Fairy Dust that I can sprinkle on my pistols?
:biglaugh:
 
#27 ·
I went back to the range again today. I put over 200 rounds through the Ruger SR1911 lwt cmdr. 50 Geco 115gr ball, about 150 Georgia Arms 115gr reloads, and about 20 Federal FST hollowpoints. In all this I had one FTF. That with a GA reload. A bump to the slide seated it. I didnt think to examine the case. But I suspect it was the cause.

Now that its proving to be reliable. I adjusted the rear sight for windage. Now it's right on with a 6 O'clock hold. I'm a happy camper 🙂
 
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