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  #1  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:48 AM
WONDERBOY WONDERBOY is offline
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1911 Carry - Cocked & Loaded but not locked

I'm wondering how we 1911 afficionados will be able to reduce our - draw to shoot time - if we carry conceal a 1911 that is cocked and loaded but not locked. (Meaning, a round in the chamber, open hammer, but thumb safety off). Could we be courting disaster? or would we be saving our lives and our love ones if and when a less second counts. Fireaway friends. Thank you.
  #2  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:51 AM
megafiddle megafiddle is offline
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Training and practice.

You can flip off the safety during the process of drawing it, or picking it up. You lose no time.

-
  #3  
Old 02-22-2020, 12:55 AM
1911_Bandit 1911_Bandit is online now
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I practice drawing my 1911 with it cocked and locked (safety on). It adds NO extra time to the draw if you depress the thumb safety to the "off" position during the draw. Many people, myself included, will shoot the 1911 platform with the thumb resting on top of the safety anyway. It helps with the control of recoil.
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  #4  
Old 02-22-2020, 01:18 AM
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Flight Medic Flight Medic is offline
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My 1911 triggers have (an average) 3lbs of pull. Im not sure I'd be comfortable carrying cocked and UNlocked. Maybe that doesnt even matter, the one and only ND I've ever had was actually a striker fired pistol with a 7lb trigger.

But I dont practice western quick draw, and I dont pretend I'd ever get the jump on a bad guy who is already brandishing a weapon (I prefer stealth and diversion). So I simply cannot imagine the 0.5 sec difference between starting with no safety and flicking the safety off would amount to ANY real world advantage...at least for me. Im gonna keep my safety engaged.
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Old 02-22-2020, 01:31 AM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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See if you can find even a single reputable instructor who is well-versed in the use of the 1911 that recommends this practice.

Your search will answer your questions.
  #6  
Old 02-22-2020, 01:57 AM
johnireland johnireland is offline
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For a police officer I think the draw is extremely important. They are pressured to not pull their gun until the last minute. In a hostile environment, I would have to ask myself what the heck I'm doing there to begin with. I don't have a CCW (and never will in Los Angeles, CA) so all these holster options don't really apply to me. The few times I do carry on my body (going down to the condo garage after 8 pm) I just slip the .45 in my waistband, cross draw so the muzzle is pointing past my left hip. And the route I take and my situational awareness are all designed to give me the most opportunity to see anyone before they see me. And while I was drawing my gun, I'd also be moving to cover, and since it is a concrete box, I wouldn't be sending lead ricocheting all over the place. Inside my home, I wouldn't be drawing it, I'd be reaching for it from the night table.

All that a long way to saying, I rarely have it cocked and locked. I am more comfortable using the Israeli style of carry...no round in the chamber. I've seen demonstrations where the cocking and chambering is simply part of the drawing and aiming...all seamless and in one smooth movement. That said, if I had it loaded and cocked, I'd probably not be locking the safety...I'd be yelling for whoever was a threat to me that they were seconds away from leaving the planet of the living unless they turned around and walked away. I would then give them a fast count of three.
  #7  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:56 AM
WaterDR WaterDR is offline
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Let me get this straight.....you want to carry a 1911....hammer back, and safety off? You are trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist and in the process, creating another problem.
  #8  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:14 AM
Fishman33 Fishman33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WONDERBOY View Post
I'm wondering how we 1911 afficionados will be able to reduce our - draw to shoot time - if we carry conceal a 1911 that is cocked and loaded but not locked. (Meaning, a round in the chamber, open hammer, but thumb safety off). Could we be courting disaster? or would we be saving our lives and our love ones if and when a less second counts. Fireaway friends. Thank you.
To answer the question - yes you would be courting disaster. Use the safety. Learn to swipe it off as you draw. It becomes automatic.

I doubt anyone here needs to worry about 1 alleged second in a situation that is likely to never happen vs endangering your self and others 100% of the time you carry.
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Old 02-22-2020, 06:26 AM
RandyP RandyP is offline
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"I just slip the .45 in my waistband,I am more comfortable using the Israeli style of carry...no round in the chamber. "

1. PLEASE buy a cheap holster off Amazon that covers the trigger guard.

2. Shalom - you didn't mention that you were also a highly trained Israeli commando (they're among the very few folks known to survive a deadly encounter using that technique)
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  #10  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:58 AM
Plaidad Plaidad is offline
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I'm not sure what the purpose is for trying to reduce your draw to shoot time - is this for competition? If it's for self defense, I would suggest that the time involved in swiping the safety off is very unlikely to make a difference in an armed encounter, and not worth the increased risk of leaving the safety disengaged. For self defense, I would recommend working on situational awareness. Practice so that, after leaving someplace ( elevator, convenience store, restaurant, etc.) you can confidently know the number of people in the space. Then work on being able to describe those people after you leave. When you get to where you can consistently get the number of people right and describe most of them, you will have given yourself a bigger time advantage than you could by leaving the safety disengaged. Being able to assess a potential threat and be prepared gives you more time than you can make up by technique
  #11  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:10 AM
scarr25 scarr25 is online now
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I take the thumb safety off when my hands come together to push forward. In the adrenaline rush of drawing for self defense I wouldn't want to add another variable having the thumb safety off.

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  #12  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:11 AM
GTTom GTTom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WONDERBOY View Post
I'm wondering how we 1911 afficionados will be able to reduce our - draw to shoot time -
PRACTICE

[QUOTE=if we carry conceal a 1911 that is cocked and loaded but not locked. (Meaning, a round in the chamber, open hammer, but thumb safety off). Could we be courting disaster? or would we be saving our lives and our love ones if and when a less second counts. Fireaway friends. Thank you. [/QUOTE]

Releasing the safety is not a separate step in the draw process it is in conjunction. It's not like you stop the draw, push down the safety then continue the draw. Therefore there is no time saved by carrying loaded, cocked and safety off.
  #13  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:17 AM
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combat auto combat auto is online now
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Usually it would not be advised with a good 1911 trigger. Good being, relatively light with almost no take up....I suppose in theory if you have a 7# 1911 trigger with a long take up one (could) make an argument based on striker fire plastic guns not having no "lock" (although they have that thingy on the trigger)...But then why would anyone have a 7# long take-up 1911 trigger, it takes away one of the key-capabilities which makes a 1911 perform so well.
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:45 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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I am someone who does not like to carry a gun with a safety. Please, save to arguments, there have been many threads. That said even not liking a safety I can not imagine carrying a 1911 with the safety off. I did shoot 1911's in USPSA. The matches were local and the RO allowed one shooter to leave his safety off after an argument. The time lost calling for an ambulance after he shot himself in the thigh drawing was long.
  #15  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:53 AM
Culpepper Cattle Co. Culpepper Cattle Co. is offline
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Feels like a troll post, but whatever -- certainly an already beat-to-death discussion topic that a search would end quickly.

Anyway, presume you're putting yourself on the clock measuring draw time with and without the thumb safety? If so and you're getting significantly different times, this is a technique problem to be corrected; the solution is not carrying with the safety off.

Let me be clear: carrying cocked and unlocked is pure dumb.

As for that "meaningful one second" between life and death? You can posit a million different scenarios for a million different preferred outcomes and a million different potential disasters. It's a waste of time. There are situations where having the gun in a different room won't prevent you from being able to defend yourself with it; there are situations where having it in hand on go won't buy you the time you need; and there's everything in between.

Statistically, it's incredibly unlikely you'll ever need your firearm for self-defense. If you do, it's even less likely that the difference between needing to swipe the safety (if you're doing it correctly) or not means your life. I'd wager you're much more apt to have a negligent discharge carrying cocked and unlocked day in and day out with the usual administrative handling of an EDC than you are to ever need it defensively, which should answer any lingering question you may have.

If not, honestly this thread could have been closed after Auston_Tx correct noted that no informed, credible instructor of the 1911 uses or recommends cocked and unlocked.
  #16  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:56 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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If you want to carry in such a fashion, get a Glock ....

Pull weight not withstanding, the takep on a 1911 trigger is far to short for such a carry mode- even with a "bad" ttigger, its perhaps 1/4".

Flush this asinine idea from your mind, and don't look back.
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:06 AM
jr24 jr24 is offline
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A proper draw and firing grip disengages the safety with now further action or thought needed, so this idea seems bad to me.

Plus, if you don't have proper practice disengaging the safety, in the event that it somehow gets locked in your holster (which is possible, especially with ambi safeties) then you won't have the muscle memory needed to unlock it.

So bad idea on multiple fronts.
  #18  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:12 AM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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This is a non-issue as repeated in all the above posts.

Train, practice, train, practice and repeat.....USPSA and IDPA and similar outlaw club matches count as training!

When you choose to possess, keep and carry the 1911 you have chosen all the nuances of the warrior's weapon, treat it as such, period!

Smiles,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 02-22-2020 at 08:14 AM.
  #19  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:25 AM
hardluk1 hardluk1 is offline
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Good common sense is a wonderful thing to have but some folks seem to have been born with very little to no common sense .
  #20  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:34 AM
wsitgm wsitgm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megafiddle View Post
Training and practice.



You can flip off the safety during the process of drawing it, or picking it up. You lose no time.



-
What he said....absolutely right....much risk, no time reduction

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  #21  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:36 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post

Train, practice, train, practice and repeat.....USPSA and IDPA and similar outlaw club matches count as training!

Smiles,
You usual dispense sound advice, so I'm not sure what happened here.... but a match is NOT training by any standard or definition. It may be a place to practice and employ skills, and the results are quantifiable- but any learning that occurs is secondary to the intent of the event, its purely incidental.
Training is a deliberate, focused educational process, intentionally designed to either impart new skills on a student or develop and enhance existing skills by developing existing skills through adding advanced skills in the subject.
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:40 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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The draw stroke from Gunsite's Ed Head in a GunTalkTV video beginning at around the :28 mark.

Note when he gets his thumb to the thumb safety and when he disengages it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGGxwJrrABY

Having the thumb safety off in the holster wouldn't speed his ability to shoot, and having to disengage the thumb safety on the draw doesn't slow his ability to shoot.
  #23  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:45 AM
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RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
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Don't morph this thread into what is training vs what is not training. Start a new thread if you wish to discuss that topic.

The original question of carrying loaded, cocked and un-locked has been answered correctly multiple times.

Case closed.
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