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  #1  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:59 AM
HiChans HiChans is offline
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H&K SP5: Do I need any special forms to put a shoulder stock on it?

The HK Pro forums are not the most friendly for newbie questions, so I figured I'd ask this here:

If I were to buy an SP5 and wanted to put a collapsible A3 shoulder stock on it, do I need any ATF forms like this fabled "Form 1" I've seen mentioned in several HK reddit threads?
  #2  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:04 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Are they selling it as a "pistol"?
If so, then a real stock will require prior approval by BATF.
Or you could get a "brace".

Somebody who dabbles in that stuff can give more details.
  #3  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:05 AM
tray burge tray burge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiChans View Post
The HK Pro forums are not the most friendly for newbie questions, so I figured I'd ask this here:

If I were to buy an SP5 and wanted to put a collapsible A3 shoulder stock on it, do I need any ATF forms like this fabled "Form 1" I've seen mentioned in several HK reddit threads?
Can't answer all your questions, but I do know if it's sold as a "pistol" you can put a collapsible, foldable any brace on you want. You are forbidden to put a vertical foregrip on it though without getting it registered as an SBR.
My Saint "pistol" with collapsible "brace" but I could just as well put a folder or something similar as long as it's not a "stock." fwiw
Post a picture and you'll get more responses.
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Last edited by tray burge; 02-07-2020 at 08:09 AM.
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  #4  
Old 02-07-2020, 09:56 AM
MichaelE MichaelE is online now
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A regular stock not sold or approved by BATF as a brace requires a Form 1. Makes no difference if it a collapsible brace or a foldable brace, as long as it's a brace.

It is a ridiculous requirement designed to generate tax money for the BATF. A brace can be just as shoulderable as a regular stock.

Tomato, tomoto.
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:01 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Throw a brace on it, can't have a vertical fore grip with a brace attached. That's about all there is unless you want an actual SBR then you need to form 1 it
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:45 AM
Amos Iron Wolf Amos Iron Wolf is offline
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But yes. If it has a barrel shorter than 16 inches and you want to put a stock on it you have to complete and submit the Form 1 along with your payment of the $200 for the tax and wait for it all to be approved and you receive you tax stamp before you can put the stock on. That's if you get approved. If you don't they keep your $200. You also have some additional rules and regulations you have to follow if approved as it is now a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) and subject to those additional regulations.

Or, you could put a brace on it. Though be careful as the ATF considers that if your "intent" is to use it as a stock then it's an SBR. If you're intent is that it's a brace and you occasionally shoulder it, that's okay. Hey, I know a few ATF field agents think the rules are weird too. But, they have to enforce what they are given to enforce.
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
Throw a brace on it, can't have a vertical fore grip with a brace attached. That's about all there is unless you want an actual SBR then you need to form 1 it
That would be MY suggestion as well. I wish I had just left the Sig brace on my PWS .300 BLK. Would have saved myself $200 (plus the cost to have the receiver engraved)...and now its gonna be a bitch to sell if I decide not to keep it.






CAN YOU LEGALLY REVERT AN SBR BACK TO "PISTOL" IF IT WAS ORIGINALLY SOLD AS A PISTOL??
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:46 PM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight Medic View Post
That would be MY suggestion as well. I wish I had just left the Sig brace on my PWS .300 BLK. Would have saved myself $200 (plus the cost to have the receiver engraved)...and now its gonna be a bitch to sell if I decide not to keep it.






CAN YOU LEGALLY REVERT AN SBR BACK TO "PISTOL" IF IT WAS ORIGINALLY SOLD AS A PISTOL??
No, once a rifle ALWAYS a rifle.
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:10 PM
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Welcome to the fun that is understanding ATF's on-again, off-again interpretations of NFA and GCA. I just read a CNN article today that stated that an AR lower receiver doesn't even technically meet the legal definition of a firearm receiver per GCA '68, and if the law was to be strictly interpreted no AR lower should have to require a serial number. As a matter of fact there was a guy in CA making ARs without a license and selling them to pretty much anyone, even felons, but in the end they didn't prosecute him because of the risk that an unfavorable court ruling would blow the door wide open to making all ARs legal without a serial number.

Arm braces are another huge headache for ATF, as they do not meet the legal definition of a rifle stock so therefore they're legal to attach to any firearm that meets the legal definition of a pistol. And there again ATF has a huge problem on its hands as a lot of these "pistols" are clearly not practical when held and fired with just one hand. The fact is that NFA and GCA are both obsolete pieces of legislation as they never kept pace with changes in firearms design, and both really need to repealed.
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:06 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
No, once a rifle ALWAYS a rifle.
Not exactly.

In this ATF letter dated 2011, it goes on to explain this in great detail. What I find interesting is:

Page 3, paragraphs 2&3

It outlines that as long as the configuration is correct for a pistol or a rifle, it can be switched back and forth as long as that particular firearm is available both in rifle form and pistol form. But that its not legal to convert a rifle to a pistol if that firearm is not manufactured that way. I.E if you wanted to make a pistol out of a M1 Garand. Which to my knowledge has never been legaly made in pistol form. It specifically mentions that if you have the parts for a Rifle and reconfigure it as a pistol, its still a legal rifle, just reconfigured as a pistol, having the ability to reconfigure back to a rifle. Seems to me that if you maintain your rifle parts its a kit form as allowed by this letter.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download
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  #11  
Old 02-08-2020, 12:05 PM
RickD427 RickD427 is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
Not exactly.

In this ATF letter dated 2011, it goes on to explain this in great detail. What I find interesting is:

Page 3, paragraphs 2&3

It outlines that as long as the configuration is correct for a pistol or a rifle, it can be switched back and forth as long as that particular firearm is available both in rifle form and pistol form. But that its not legal to convert a rifle to a pistol if that firearm is not manufactured that way. I.E if you wanted to make a pistol out of a M1 Garand. Which to my knowledge has never been legaly made in pistol form. It specifically mentions that if you have the parts for a Rifle and reconfigure it as a pistol, its still a legal rifle, just reconfigured as a pistol, having the ability to reconfigure back to a rifle. Seems to me that if you maintain your rifle parts its a kit form as allowed by this letter.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download
You're making a very common mistake with the above posting. Specifically, you are confusing the provisions of federal law with those of state law. Many states have laws that are more restrictive than the federal statutes. California is one such state.

"Once a rifle, always a rifle" is very much true within California. The basis for that statement is Penal Code section 17170(c) which defines any weapon made from a rifle and having a barrel of less than 16 inches, or an overall length of less than 26 inches, as being a short barreled rifle. That's the reason that you can't go to a pistol from a rifle in California.

ATF's position is irrelevant with regard to state law.

Last edited by RickD427; 02-08-2020 at 12:10 PM.
  #12  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:56 PM
filthy phil filthy phil is offline
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Originally Posted by Amos Iron Wolf View Post
. If you don't they keep your $200.
they keep your $200 as basically a fine for the trouble?
sorry but this is BS

Last edited by filthy phil; 02-08-2020 at 07:59 PM.
  #13  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:59 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post
You're making a very common mistake with the above posting. Specifically, you are confusing the provisions of federal law with those of state law. Many states have laws that are more restrictive than the federal statutes. California is one such state.

"Once a rifle, always a rifle" is very much true within California. The basis for that statement is Penal Code section 17170(c) which defines any weapon made from a rifle and having a barrel of less than 16 inches, or an overall length of less than 26 inches, as being a short barreled rifle. That's the reason that you can't go to a pistol from a rifle in California.

ATF's position is irrelevant with regard to state law.
I made no mistake. I don't live in California for a good reason. And I was unaware this thread was addressing state laws. Of course you must know if your state has ridiculously prohibitive laws. I was responding to another poster who was also discussing ATF. I simply posted a link to a letter from ATF that was interesting to the discussion. Some in less prohibitive states may find the letter interesting as I did. I made no claim to it being right or wrong. Even the OP asked about the ATF.
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  #14  
Old 02-21-2020, 12:42 AM
Litespeedaudio Litespeedaudio is offline
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If you are spending the money for an HK MP5 then go all the way and pay the $200 tax and get a real HK folding stock. Would you buy a Wilson Combat or Nighthawk and add mim parts to it?
They also make a great suppressor host. Which will be another $200 plus cost of suppressor.
And donít forget you favorite optic.
Mine is actually a Zenith Z-5P made in Turkey on HK tooling. I actually like the welds on the Zenith over the HK.

Going the full route takes a lot of time and money. Do you research including you state laws. If you want to pass it on son, daughter or loved one than you should also look into setting up a Trust. This process is not as simple as going to LGS and buying a 1911.

If itís something you might not keep than I wouldnít waste my time or money. I would just go out and buy something with a brace already on it like a Sig MPX-K or Copperhead.
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2020, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Striker2237 View Post
No, once a rifle ALWAYS a rifle.

Not sure where you got that from, but from the information I've found it should read "FIRST a rifle, always a rifle"...because it appears to me if the item was originally manufactured and sold AS A PISTOL, even if converted to an SBR, it can be returned to a pistol.

Pistol--->SBR--->pistol is GTG,
Rifle--->SBR--->pistol is a no-no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD427 View Post

"Once a rifle, always a rifle" is very much true within California. The basis for that statement is Penal Code section 17170(c) which defines any weapon made from a rifle and having a barrel of less than 16 inches, or an overall length of less than 26 inches, as being a short barreled rifle. That's the reason that you can't go to a pistol from a rifle in California.

ATF's position is irrelevant with regard to state law.

I dont give a rat's ass about Kalifornistan state law, I live in Texas. You can buy guns out of the trunk of a car here. I just wanted to make sure the federal tax stamp doesn't forbid me from returning the firearm to it's original form factor.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:05 AM
Colt191145 Colt191145 is offline
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Originally Posted by filthy phil View Post
they keep your $200 as basically a fine for the trouble?
sorry but this is BS

filthy phil is correct. The atf does not keep your $200 if for some reason the stamp is denied.

NFA rules and regs are difficult to interpret, but making assumptions or exerting your own opinions about them only complicates them even more for those looking for guidance.

Please refrain from trying to be an authority on atf regulations unless you are up to date on the current and ever conflicting NFA and schedule 1 firearm guidelines.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:11 AM
Colt191145 Colt191145 is offline
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Originally Posted by Flight Medic View Post
Not sure where you got that from, but from the information I've found it should read "FIRST a rifle, always a rifle"...because it appears to me if the item was originally manufactured and sold AS A PISTOL, even if converted to an SBR, it can be returned to a pistol.

Pistol--->SBR--->pistol is GTG,
Rifle--->SBR--->pistol is a no-no.




I dont give a rat's ass about Kalifornistan state law, I live in Texas. You can buy guns out of the trunk of a car here. I just wanted to make sure the federal tax stamp doesn't forbid me from returning the firearm to it's original form factor.

You could remove your SBR from the registry. Your $200 tax would be refunded. Now if your SBR would return to a pistol or not I do not know. That would be a great question for your state atf office to answer for you. But you did go through all the trouble to get the stamp in the first place, would it actually be worthwhile to reverse course now?

There were no "braced" stocks when I filed a form 1 and assembled my SBR. I have no regrets, and would not consider removing it from the registry after all the steps taken to accomplish the approval. That said if I were interested in another short barrel rifle, I would take the "brace" route first before filing another form 1.
  #18  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:58 AM
SCfromNY SCfromNY is offline
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Just a quick jump into the thread. I have a Saint AR "Pistol" with a brace and it is great. And yes according to the rules you can shoulder it.
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Old 03-02-2020, 06:32 AM
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<snip> But you did go through all the trouble to get the stamp in the first place, would it actually be worthwhile to reverse course now? </snip>

Only if I were going to sell it. That way I would NOT have to go through a Class 3 FFL or be limited only to buyers willing to pay the tax stamp fee and endure the insane wait times. I could simply sell it as a .300 Blk pistol directly to an individual and be done with it.

Also wondering if I'm required to remove my NFA Trust engraving on the receiver prior to sale.
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Old 03-02-2020, 06:52 AM
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So the op asks advice and doesn't return to comment . We're done here .
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