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  #1  
Old 05-26-2019, 10:31 AM
msjdgman msjdgman is offline
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What did my son find?

I stopped by my sons last night so that he could show me an unusual round that he found. It appears to be 9mm luger, but who, what, where etc.

The tip sure looks metallic.
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  #2  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:46 AM
StrangerDanger StrangerDanger is offline
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That’s someone’s home grown junk. I’m willing to bet that tip is just the coating removed on the tip. You could always try a magnet on it for fun
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  #3  
Old 05-26-2019, 12:14 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Most likely a foreign military round based on the head stamp and blue paint. Possibly a "binary" bullet indicated by the different colored tip. Possibly steel core.

There are probably 100 combinations of head stamps and bullets in 9mm flavors!

I would not shoot this in any pistol. It is possibly a high pressure "carbine" round.

Smiles,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 05-26-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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  #4  
Old 05-26-2019, 12:48 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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I may be incorrect - as that does happen from time to time, but I believe that that is a Swedish round (well, Swedish case, at least). Sometimes there's a crown at 12-o'clock, sometimes not, but '070' is a Swedish head-stamp. The year is '74. As to composition of the bullet, your guess is a good as any. Lots of possibilities in that realm. If it's an unmolested round, there's likely nothing special about it, in terms of charge, intended use, etc. Standard, military, NATO 9mm. But like with every round of questionable 'assemblage', set it aside.
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  #5  
Old 05-26-2019, 01:04 PM
msjdgman msjdgman is offline
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Thanks for the replies. It was late yesterday evening and I was in a hurry to get home from work. My son had just this one round in the house when I stopped by. I talked with him just a little while ago, and come to find out it was on a stripper clip type device with room for 25 rounds (23 left on device). So the possibility that it was for carbine use is certainly plausible.

I might try a round or two out of one of my guns. We’ll see if I feel like gambling
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  #6  
Old 05-26-2019, 01:10 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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"Standard, military, NATO 9mm"

No it is not!
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  #7  
Old 05-26-2019, 01:55 PM
markm markm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msjdgman View Post
I might try a round or two out of one of my guns. We’ll see if I feel like gambling
I would never shoot anything in one of my guns that I didn't know the origin of, including something that appears to be factory. I find a lot of rounds and sometimes boxes of ammo at the range, probably lost at the unload and show clear stage but it all goes in the trash.
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  #8  
Old 05-26-2019, 02:12 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
"Standard, military, NATO 9mm"

No it is not!
What would it be then? The NATO designation implies that it's already hotter than our regular, standard production 9mm rounds, as it's intended to also run sub-guns. Are you suggesting that a military would load ammo to be even hotter than NATO? If so, what would be the purpose of going 'hotter' than what you'd need for sub-guns?

Last edited by havanajim; 05-26-2019 at 02:16 PM.
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  #9  
Old 05-26-2019, 05:48 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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For clarity....

Quote:
Originally Posted by havanajim View Post
What would it be then? The NATO designation implies that it's already hotter than our regular, standard production 9mm rounds, as it's intended to also run sub-guns. Are you suggesting that a military would load ammo to be even hotter than NATO? If so, what would be the purpose of going 'hotter' than what you'd need for sub-guns?
Thanks for recommending that the OP set the rounds aside!

The fact that it has blue paint marking and what might be a steel tip moves it beyond "Standard NATO Military ammo!"

"NATO Carbine/SMG" ammo is not "Standard NATO" and should not be used in 9mm pistols in general. Nor should +P+ since there are so many 9mm pistols of unknown quality.

Foreign NATO AMMO specs may be much higher than SAAMI +P Specs. U.S. manufacturers labelling NATO 9mm will be close to SAAMI +P specs. Most modern 9mm pistols will tolerate +P ammo and will designate as such. Unless things have changed the only +P+ SAAMI 9mm ammo is recommended for L/E firearms only.

Cheers,
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Last edited by jjfitch; 05-26-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:01 PM
RON in PA RON in PA is online now
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25 round clip is for loading submachine gun mags. I believe this ammo is for short range practice.
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  #11  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:58 PM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
Thanks for recommending that the OP set the rounds aside!

The fact that it has blue paint marking and what might be a steel tip moves it beyond "Standard NATO Military ammo!"

"NATO Carbine/SMG" ammo is not "Standard NATO" and should not be used in 9mm pistols in general. Nor should +P+ since there are so many 9mm pistols of unknown quality.

Foreign NATO AMMO specs may be much higher than SAAMI +P Specs. U.S. manufacturers labelling NATO 9mm will be close to SAAMI +P specs. Most modern 9mm pistols will tolerate +P ammo and will designate as such. Unless things have changed the only +P+ SAAMI 9mm ammo is recommended for L/E firearms only.

Cheers,

To be frank, I don't know what the Swedes are designating by the blue paint. We don't even know what the projectile is. But, being a Swede, military 9mm, we can assume that it's loaded to at least NATO pressures, meaning hotter than our SAAMI 9mm Luger. Standard NATO isn't actually running at higher pressure than 9mm+p, it's between standard Luger, and +p. I've never come across an actual designation for what +p+ would be, so I won't comment on that. I've also never come across a higher-pressure, European loading specific for sub-guns either, so I'll leave that one there as well. There's a whole lot of interweb chatter on what is NATO and what isn't, and what can take it and what can't. I would say, shoot as little NATO stuff as you need to and avoid 9mm+p altogether. And of course, when in doubt as to the origin of a round, set it aside. That's just the prudent thing to do.
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  #12  
Old 05-27-2019, 02:53 AM
Reloader Reloader is offline
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The IAI headstamp guide has the following notation for the "070" headstamp

Ammunitionsfabriken Karlsborg, (Nammo/Vanäsverken), Sweden (also FFV Vanasverken, Karlsborg)

Nothing about the loading.

I expect the blue is sealant.
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  #13  
Old 05-27-2019, 03:00 AM
Reloader Reloader is offline
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The ATF headstamp guide also lists as Swedish.

The headstamp does not have the NAYO cross, so the load specification does not necessarily match the NATO specifications.

Think of it as collectable, or curiosity, not shooting ammunition.
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  #14  
Old 05-27-2019, 04:36 AM
CLASSIC12 CLASSIC12 is offline
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What did my son find?

If it is ammo made for SMG, you better not shoot it in a pistol

I bought a can of ammo for my MAT 49, 1200 rounds of Austrian Hirtenberger Patronen (HP) L7A1.









Found this abt it on the web :

“Hirtenberger has produced two types of SMG ammunition. Both were developed on request for the British Ministry Of Defence:

L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it. It was replaced with:

L12A1- This ammunition is substantially similar, but uses a slightly reduced charge in order to stay under the 50,000 PSI NATO maximum pressure specs.

Both of these rounds feature a 124-grain FMJ ball bullet, and produce a maximum velocity of about 1,500 fps.

Contrary to popular belief, these rounds were not designed for arctic conditions, nor were they developed for the Sterling SMG. They were designed for use in H&K MP5 series SMGs. Although they were undoubtedly tested under arctic conditions, the use of the term "adverse conditions" in its designation is more euphemistic than anything else.

In terms of the commercial availability of these rounds, the MOD released 12 million rounds of L7A1 ammunition as surplus. Since the ammunition is packaged in a 1,200 round case, this means that 10,000 cases were released. Since HP refuses to sell this ammunition to the public, and only produced L7A1 in 1990, 1991, and 1992, and only for the British contract, that means that the entire world's supply consists of 10,000 cases.

Likewise, within several months of release, BATF banned the importation of the ammunition, due to its being unsafe for use in handguns. This second fact makes the ammunition even more rare in the United States.”



The gun I use them in

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  #15  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:24 AM
havanajim havanajim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLASSIC12 View Post
If it is ammo made for SMG, you better not shoot it in a pistol

I bought a can of ammo for my MAT 49, 1200 rounds of Austrian Hirtenberger Patronen (HP) L7A1.

........

Found this abt it on the web :

“Hirtenberger has produced two types of SMG ammunition. Both were developed on request for the British Ministry Of Defence:

L7A1- This ammunition was produced between 1990 and 1992. Many samples exceed the NATO maximum chamber pressure specification for small arms, which is 50,000 PSI (345 MPa). For this reason, the British MOD ceased to use it. It was replaced with:

L12A1- This ammunition is substantially similar, but uses a slightly reduced charge in order to stay under the 50,000 PSI NATO maximum pressure specs.

Both of these rounds feature a 124-grain FMJ ball bullet, and produce a maximum velocity of about 1,500 fps.

.....

Good info. Thank you.
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  #16  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:45 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Factory 9mm major.......interesting.
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  #17  
Old 05-27-2019, 11:33 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLASSIC12 View Post
The gun I use them in

Damn Classic12, you have some really cool toys. I might have to move to Switzerland someday if this place continues to go down the toilet.
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Old 05-27-2019, 01:26 PM
BlueOvalBandit BlueOvalBandit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RON in PA View Post
25 round clip is for loading submachine gun mags. I believe this ammo is for short range practice.
^This. It's Swedish M39 short range/practice ammo for the M45. Its a plastic bullet with a steel bb.
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Old 05-27-2019, 03:16 PM
CLASSIC12 CLASSIC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueOvalBandit View Post
^This. It's Swedish M39 short range/practice ammo for the M45. Its a plastic bullet with a steel bb.


Bingo (this forum is amazing)



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  #20  
Old 05-27-2019, 03:19 PM
CLASSIC12 CLASSIC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Damn Classic12, you have some really cool toys. I might have to move to Switzerland someday if this place continues to go down the toilet.


Thanks. You can read about it here

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=971626
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  #21  
Old 05-27-2019, 04:41 PM
msjdgman msjdgman is offline
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I had the chance to stop by my sons a little while ago on my way home from work. The above referenced stripper clip ammo is indeed the same. He had said 25 rounds but it indeed holds 36. I did pop one off with my S&W SD9. I had stripped it down and checked for case support, then loaded one up and popped it off without issue. Below are a couple of more pics.
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Last edited by msjdgman; 05-27-2019 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Correction.
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  #22  
Old 05-28-2019, 02:31 AM
green papaya green papaya is offline
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do you know if this surplus ammo could be corrosive? maybe you should use warm soapy water to clean your bore just in case?
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  #23  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:21 PM
MSgt Dotson MSgt Dotson is offline
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Best to assume it's corrosive unless absolutely known to be otherwise...
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  #24  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:36 AM
Thumper88 Thumper88 is offline
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That’s super cool. Off to google to read up on it. Seems similar to the wax loads some guys use for revolver practice
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