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  #1  
Old 11-08-2018, 09:37 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I am going to share a thought with the forum.

I am likely way off base here. As in what the heck do I know about much of anything. But just for the sake of conversation I am going to share this anyway. I first started thinking about this when the magazine trade in offer materialized. I think that most of us here are familiar with the very generous magazine trade in program that ED and Co. have been offering here of late.

My suspicions were aroused at that point that something out of the ordinary was afoot. With the late breaking news of hand guns being made available by this very high quality gun maker, that will be perhaps within the grasp financially of a much wider group of customers. This has only reinforced my thinking that something is indeed happening here that I initially suspected with the magazine exchange program.

I am inclined to read this one way. I think that given the current climate of gun sales across the board, lackluster to say the least. I am really wanting to think that at least partially the motivation behind both the magazine exchange program, and additionally the "bargain" line of pistols being offered. That this is a clear effort on the part of Ed Brown and Co. to keep a skilled set of workers employed through lean times.


It is clearly understood by this person that the forces behind what Ed Brown and Co. are doing is likely for reasons of their own and very likely largely removed from what I have imagined. However I would not rule it out entirely. And if that is in fact the case. That they are moving in this direction. Then I salute them for doing so.

Last edited by USMM guy; 11-09-2018 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 10:15 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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I'd guess that it's the result of a well-managed top tier 1911 builder taking a really good look at current -- late 2018 -- customer sentiments and competitor offerings:

9mm chamberings of 1911s have become more popular; this chambering is no longer being wholly rebuked by 1911 enthusiasts.

Defensive 9mm ammo improvements, e.g., Federal HST, have elevated perspectives of this cartridges SD efficacy... more people are comfortable with 9mm as a solid SD chambering selection. Other ammo/chamberings have also been improved, but that's not so much the point ... instead, the point is that more people now feel comfortable with SD usage of a cartridge they previously liked to shoot anyway, but that they previously did not wholly trust for SD efficacy.

People are looking for ever-better carry packages.

People have an eye on both quality and price. (This is generally a perpetual truth).

Wilson has sold many guns with a similar configuration ... pretty clear evidence of demand for this type of 1911.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 11-08-2018 at 10:27 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:34 AM
Magnumite Magnumite is offline
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Brown has been offering machined components it hadn't previously for awhile now. Some of new consumer pricing may also be a reflection of CNC tooling costs have been recouped. Just a stab at one factor.
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  #4  
Old 11-09-2018, 10:37 AM
JimF4M1s JimF4M1s is offline
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I believe Ed has/is stepping aside more and more with his son's now taking the active role in the management of the company. Inspiring new ideas, innovation and a somewhat different approach for the company then in the past.

Taking a great company and improving on that is not a simple task. From what I have seen so far they have accomplished the near impossible. They have kept all the traditional ideology, and have conjointly interjected new models. All while holding onto the core values they have given us over the years, reliability, accuracy, feel, looks, value for our dollars, and a no fuss written warranty. Making all their parts in house only adds to their top notch quality control and reliability. Offering this new model at a price point that has to have marginal profit rightfully should only increase their following.

Those were my reasons for changing from Dan Wesson to Ed Brown back in the early 2000's and what has kept me as a loyal customer ever since. I've tried all the other makers. Some I like a model here and there and have kept them. But my go to and daily carry has always been an Ed Brown in either 45acp or .38 super. I don't see that changing.

My only regret, I was hoping they were going to come out with a 50th anniversary pistol this year as it was also my 50th year, last July, married to my sweetie. She has been with me since we were sixteen, was there for all my tours and has always supported my love of weapons. I thought it would have been fun to have their 50th on my 50th. Oh well.

I could go on and on, but everyone here already knows I am an Ed Brown aficionado.
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  #5  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:18 AM
US1911 US1911 is offline
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USMM Guy, I believe your train of thought is on track, Sir.

From my perspective, during tough economic times, the first impact is a blow to the workforce, workforce reductions have an immediate effect. Employer loyalty to employees wonít remain in tact if the company is bleeding out profits. Donít know if Justin was an example of this, but itís certainly not uncommon to replace a high paid employee in favor of those with similar skill sets for a fraction of the cost.

I think EB is willing to take risks to remain viable. Small gun manufacturers arenít going to survive hard economic times if they donít branch out by selling parts, accessories and models that reflect current demand. Wilson has the funds and resources to successfully bring the double stack EDC-X9 to market, EB couldíve probably went in that direction too, but itís doubtful that they wouldíve had measurable success compared to the EDC-X9, because the MSRP wouldíve likely been much, much higher than the KC9.

9mmís popularity these days is undeniable. EBís decision to build a dedicated, ground up 9mm pistol, is both forward thinking and risk worthy. The big challenge now will be exposure, getting these on LGS shelves and in the hands of potential customers.

While I dig the EDC-X9 and see the appeal of a high-cap 1911ish style carry gun, truth is that 9+1 rounds of 9mm is plenty for most SD scenarios. I could fully embrace the KC9 if it had a lightweight receiver and a threaded barrel option sometime down the road.

Jim, Congrats to You & Yours for your 50th Anniversary. Such a milestone is becoming more and more rare these days.
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:32 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Jim,
You sir are blessed. A wonderful wife makes for a wonderful life, congrats! Now, get that anniversary gift:-)
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:47 PM
scw2 scw2 is offline
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Great thread. Great comments.

What Brown is doing is hard, whatever the motivation.

Sometimes you just have to hold your breath and see if it works.

In a past life, I had 500 employees working for me in a home office and 1,200 more outside the US. Most of these were not high wage employees. One thing that used to bother me when I went home at night was what happens to their families if we get this wrong.

But you know if you do not change, you will get run over.
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:59 PM
azguy1911 azguy1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post

........I am really wanting to think that at least partially the motivation behind both the magazine exchange program, and additionally the "bargain" line of pistols being offered.
I'm not sure $1,900 is "bargain" level pricing but I get your thinking

I'm personally interested in the new model in stainless if it is indeed the same beautiful grey stainless hue we've come to expect out of their full semi-custom house builds.
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  #9  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:44 AM
jtq jtq is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I am inclined to read this one way. I think that given the current climate of gun sales across the board, lackluster to say the least. I am really wanting to think that at least partially the motivation behind both the magazine exchange program, and additionally the "bargain" line of pistols being offered. That this is a clear effort on the part of Ed Brown and Co. to keep a skilled set of workers employed through lean times.
I think this is a reasonable theory.

One thing that has me slightly concerned is what seems like a move to the non-traditional 1911 look as seen in the FX and EVO series guns. I can't help but think of STI when I look at those guns.

You used to be able to buy a 1911 from STI that looked like a traditional 1911. Now, regardless of the fact they are all double stacks, there isn't a gun in their line-up with a traditional slide or dust cover. I hope that doesn't become the Ed Brown future.
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:43 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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The market is saturated, there are so many makers at all price points that everybody is looking for a niche. Brown thinks that "batch production" and a slimmed down 1911 pattern gun will find one. Others go for nontraditional styling, about which I should not say much for fear of being chastised (again) for Lack of Unalloyed Admiration.

I contacted a maker about a gun of particular specifications drawn from their catalogue and they sent back a picture of one "recently completed, just what you need." But it wasn't. So I bought Something Else that really does meet my taste and application.
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  #11  
Old 11-10-2018, 09:33 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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The problem semi-custom 1911 makers will continue to have is they are trying to live in a 9mm double stack market. If they don't do something to diversify they won't stay in business. Redesigning the 1911 to a 9mm is the first step. But then it really can't compete with something like a Sig or Glock or a dozen other very good 9mm's on the market. It's a bit like a 9mm revolver. Some people are really desperate to sell $3000 1911's, $500 knives and $200 flashlights.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:22 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is online now
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Which is why Wilson is selling Berettas and Nighthawk was dressing up Brownings while they lasted.

I can admire a $3000 1911 but a $2000 Glock is beyond my comprehension.
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Old 11-10-2018, 01:39 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
The problem semi-custom 1911 makers will continue to have is they are trying to live in a 9mm double stack market. If they don't do something to diversify they won't stay in business. Redesigning the 1911 to a 9mm is the first step. But then it really can't compete with something like a Sig or Glock or a dozen other very good 9mm's on the market. It's a bit like a 9mm revolver. Some people are really desperate to sell $3000 1911's, $500 knives and $200 flashlights.
There are people, a lot of them, who prefer double-stack 9mm firearms. They might well be the largest segment of today's handgun buyers. The capability to shoot a larger number of rounds is important to them, and it seems to have captured most LEO department business as well. And for those with this capacity priority, it is good that they have plenty to choose from. Separately, the S&W Shield (9mm version) also proved that there is a considerable demand for single-stack 9mm firearms. To a certain extent, low cost, relative to the 1911, is oftentimes part of the marketplace equation; if the average double-stack 9mm handgun (including polymer) cost about the same as the average all-steel 1911, I'm not so sure that the relative sales numbers would remain the same … some people feel that a quality 1911 is a bit more than they can afford, so they gravitate towards a Glock or a S&W M&P handgun or something of a similar nature

On the other hand, most 1911 enthusiasts prefer the .45acp 1911 for some very basic reasons. It feels good to them... in their hands, they shoot it well, they prefer the SAO trigger, and it is all steel. They prefer .45acp for the same reasons the U.S. Army choose it 100+ years ago. These people aren't so laser-focused on the single attribute of greater magazine capacity; that particular definition of better performance just isn't their priority. Top-tier 1911 buyers are also willing to pay far more for a firearm than buyers of the typical double-stack 9mm handguns. I'm not so sure that the 1911 business is drying-up.

Most people who choose a .45acp 1911 for SD are pretty confident in their ability to hit and stop a BG with the standard magazine capacity; and many carry a backup magazine as well and can re-load rather quickly.

Nothing wrong with either of these groups. Nothing at all (this bears repeating), and neither should claim some type of holier-than-thou superiority. But they are not pure crossovers; the idea that a double-stack 9mm enthusiast's definition of better performance serves equally well for a 1911 enthusiast is probably well short of being 100% true.

1911s of the classical quality EB is known for will probably be around for a long time … perhaps a second 100 years. For many people, it continues to be the best choice. New double-stack polymer guns will likely also be around for a long time, but the newer fangled ones will likely continue to replace the older ones. Will be interesting to see if the original Glock design is still around 50 to 100 years from now... but I'll have to leave that to younger generations to discover.

---

In relation to this thread's excellent subject, and many excellent posts, the differing customer niches in the handgun manufacturing business create both challenges and opportunities for top tier builders such as EB, WC, and NH (not to exclude others). Those who have extended their interpretations of 1911s beyond the classical version and continued to apply their top tier quality standards have probably done themselves and many of their customers a favor. WC went outside of the 1911 world with "Wilsonized" Berettas (M9 designs) and Glocks, but in the former case, Bill Wilson is an avowed Beretta enthusiast (in addition to the 1911), so it makes sense for him to try to improve the Beretta. I suppose someone inside of Wilson is looking at the P&L results of the Wilsonized Glocks. Personally, I suspect there's only so much Glock-enhancement business available among top tier 1911 builders... Glock buyers and top tier 1911 buyers are probably not the same customer segment, at least not mostly.
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Last edited by chrysanthemum; 11-10-2018 at 03:43 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-10-2018, 03:50 PM
scw2 scw2 is offline
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chrysanthemum,

The only post I have ever seen Hickok45 post on the 1911Forum was about magazine capacity. I vaguely remember that he wanted eight rounds in case he was attacked by eight assailants.

Regards,
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Old 11-10-2018, 03:53 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by scw2 View Post
chrysanthemum,

The only post I have ever seen Hickok45 post on the 1911Forum was about magazine capacity. I vaguely remember that he wanted eight rounds in case he was attacked by eight assailants.

Regards,
I love it! Many thanks for sharing.

+1911

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Old 11-10-2018, 07:22 PM
JimF4M1s JimF4M1s is offline
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That's confidence, eight for eigtht. But he can do it.
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Old 11-10-2018, 07:53 PM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Watson View Post
Which is why Wilson is selling Berettas and Nighthawk was dressing up Brownings while they lasted.

I can admire a $3000 1911 but a $2000 Glock is beyond my comprehension.
I can admire a $500 knife but a $500 Glock is beyond my comprehension.
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:08 PM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
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Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
I can admire a $500 knife but a $500 Glock is beyond my comprehension.
Same sentiments. Love it.



---

(Seriously, if any Glock fans here, you guys are A-O.K.)
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Old 11-12-2018, 02:22 PM
Magnumite Magnumite is offline
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I’ve had several poly wonder double stacks. I have one now, A Glock I actually shoot. I can’t imagine any mega $$$ Glock with near the soul of a well put together 1911. Felt the same about a VP 9, M&P Pro9, two Ruger polyguns. Only the a KZ 45 came close and it is a 1911.

Ed Brown is doing right. I have been eyeing an SF for awhile now.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:41 AM
Ed Brown Products Ed Brown Products is offline
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I have enjoyed reading all the ideas on why the launch of this new model. We are as always trying to give our customers the best possible products at the best values that we can offer. Changing the way things are done is in the companies DNA and will be always a part of the plan. We hope you enjoy the new KC9 and will continue to enjoy all of our releases in the future. Thank you for your business and we are looking forward to the next 50 years!
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Old 02-14-2019, 08:22 PM
Darkside007 Darkside007 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
The problem semi-custom 1911 makers will continue to have is they are trying to live in a 9mm double stack market. If they don't do something to diversify they won't stay in business. Redesigning the 1911 to a 9mm is the first step. But then it really can't compete with something like a Sig or Glock or a dozen other very good 9mm's on the market. It's a bit like a 9mm revolver. Some people are really desperate to sell $3000 1911's, $500 knives and $200 flashlights.
To say that a 1911 - an ANY caliber, "really can't compete with something like a Sig or Glock is is just wrong. The platform, to many, is a superior platform. Whatever floats your boat, my friend. But the 1911 certainly can and does compete with the modern plastic wonder-nines and DA pistols.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:47 AM
JimF4M1s JimF4M1s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostintheOzone View Post
The problem semi-custom 1911 makers will continue to have is they are trying to live in a 9mm double stack market. If they don't do something to diversify they won't stay in business. Redesigning the 1911 to a 9mm is the first step. But then it really can't compete with something like a Sig or Glock or a dozen other very good 9mm's on the market. It's a bit like a 9mm revolver. Some people are really desperate to sell $3000 1911's, $500 knives and $200 flashlights.
A few months old thread, but just to add, some folks are not looking for a 9mm handgun. I bought some just to say I have them, but they are still in the bags. I'm not a 9mm fan, 38 super is the smallest I will carry, and usually it is a 45acp. The others will go when I get the feeling.

I have a Sig Equinox in both .40 and 45acp and they are fine weapons at less than half the price of an Ed Brown. Glocks are blocks and I got rid of all mine for that reason. But they fuctioned 100% of the time.

If one chooses to spend $3000+ on a handgun versus $1,200 or $599 for a Sig or Glock it's his or her money to spend. I feel folks by Ed Brown and Wison for the quality, feel, trigger, reliability, accuracy and refinement they receive. To many it is worth the $$$, to many others it is not. Not a desperation move any more than buying a luxury car versus a Chevy or Ford. That is tens of thousands more spent, they both go down the road. But some have more style and comforts.
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  #23  
Old 02-18-2019, 09:46 AM
cgff cgff is offline
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It is great to see EB with new offerings, The KC9 seems awesome. If I was in the 1911 9mm market that would be were Iíd put my money.
I consolidated some time ago all my 1911s are 45acp Full-size grip no CCOs etc
The KC9 with the external extractor is tremendous taking a weak link out of the platform and easing design and production, Kudos EB.
With 1911 manufactures Chasing the 9mm market for reduced recoil and more affordable shooting costs, I believe the Poly highcap market naming glock just went after the 1911 market in a small way Look at the G48 same size capacity
Half the weight of a 4.25 1911 and 1/2-1/3 of the cost of most 9mm 1911s. The
Glock 43-43x & 48 have the ability to swap parts and create multiple platform configurations. Win win for the consumer.
As consumers we are seeing great innovation in the firearms industry. As a part time employee at a LGS and range I see folks shy away from The 1911 platform as the comparison in cost of shooting 45 to 9. Most of us 1911 true junkies are aging and with that the recoil of the 9 being less punishing.
Just some ramblings now to get back to specing my next EB.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:26 AM
wildphil wildphil is offline
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I would guess that EB decided that they would like to sell a lot more 1911s. There are only so many buyers that are willing to pay $2500+ for a pistol. With a lower price point, they may attract many more buyers. If they were able to have a line of quality pistols with zero or few options allowing for the lower price. While still providing their normal line of pistols with multiple options. I am no businessman, but that is what the plan looks like to me.
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