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  #26  
Old 04-06-2018, 03:07 AM
i9ii i9ii is offline
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Originally Posted by gqllc View Post
Here is my guard dog Luger watching over my wife and his sister. He is from the Czech Republic. Both his parents are active duty. Great dog....beyond energetic. I have had many many dogs and none have had his endless energy
Is thatís a tough looking dog, big too.
He also seem friendly. Donít how but I can tell.
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  #27  
Old 04-06-2018, 03:12 AM
i9ii i9ii is offline
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When I was little I saw a lot of bulldogs and hounds....but these days they arenít that popular. Too voilent or what ?
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  #28  
Old 04-06-2018, 06:11 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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The Bulldog is currently the fifth most popular AKC breed in the US.

http://www.akc.org/expert-advice/new...-ranking-list/

Hounds are a big group including several breeds.

http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/groups/hound/

Last edited by jtq; 04-06-2018 at 06:15 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:03 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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Bulldog's (the AKC Bulldog - realizing there are several non-AKC recognized "bully" breeds) has a very gentle reputation. See the GEICO "Running of the Bulldogs" commercial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0maaH2gUWa4
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  #30  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:27 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by bountyhunter9 View Post
Nailed it.
I was able to teach it to just bark ...no bitting ...very smart dog

She is very watchful ...of her pack
These heelers are more than just "trainable"- the usual metric of how "smart" a dog is. They have a degree of intelligence that far surpasses the norm for most dogs. They can think, solve problems, and make- usually correct- decisions independently of a handler.
My Rotts and Mastif, while well trained, solid dogs, didn't compare to the ACD in this regard.
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  #31  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:56 AM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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We always laugh that the one job a heeler is really cut out for is to guard tools in the back of a truck. You can teach them never to leave a truck bed, and nothing guards a car like a heeler.

All kidding aside, they are really good, smart, tough dogs, and they are just about the cutest puppies on the face of the earth. One of the great companion breeds for an active owner who really wants to engage with their animal. A disaster for a family with kids and no experience with stubborn, tough dogs.

I think I have a natural bias against them because I use dogs to move livestock and heelers aren't good herding dogs. Mine is the go to animal if I need to get semen from a bull, but other than that, he gets no livestock work. He gets a lot of tennis ball.
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  #32  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:57 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is offline
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Guard dog vs Watch dog needs to be differentiated I think.
To me, a good guard dog is trained to attack on command vs letting you know someone or something is on your property.
My border collie does his job, keeps geese and other animals off the property, and let's me know if anyone comes up the driveway or is outside. I don't really consider him a guard dog but he does give strangers a more aggressive type of hello.

Last edited by Plantar5; 04-06-2018 at 08:01 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:55 AM
Black Jack Black Jack is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelpiemonk View Post
Sorry, but this is BS. I have worked with, trained and competed with dogs my entire life. Most good family dogs are way too scared to take on a threat, and most of the ones who would are not under any sort of responsible control.

The fact that they won't is a good thing, because dogs generally aren't all that good at assessing what is threatening and what isn't. They only understand what is scary to them and what isn't.
Have to disagree with you. Most good family dogs will naturally protect their family without guard dog training.

Are you sure you have worked with dogs for your entire life? If so, then you should know that they can generally do a very good job of picking up on the emotions and attitudes of those that are "in their pack". They will then act accordingly, depending on their size and temperament.

Now if you are trying to say that a dog is not going to look at somebody on the street and evaluate how much of a threat that person may or may not be based on their looks, you are correct and I am not implying that they would, but if somebody breaks into your house and starts assaulting a family member, especially a child, you will see just how fast most dogs will try to get between the threat and the family member. Even something a gentile as a Golden Retriever will understand when a family member is being hurt and take action.

If you disagree with that, well then you have not done a very good job of understanding the dogs you have been working with your entire life.
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  #34  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:13 AM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Originally Posted by Black Jack View Post
Have to disagree with you. Most good family dogs will naturally protect their family without guard dog training.

Are you sure you have worked with dogs for your entire life? If so, then you should know that they can generally do a very good job of picking up on the emotions and attitudes of those that are "in their pack". They will then act accordingly, depending on their size and temperament.

Now if you are trying to say that a dog is not going to look at somebody on the street and evaluate how much of a threat that person may or may not be based on their looks, you are correct and I am not implying that they would, but if somebody breaks into your house and starts assaulting a family member, especially a child, you will see just how fast most dogs will try to get between the threat and the family member. Even something a gentile as a Golden Retriever will understand when a family member is being hurt and take action.

If you disagree with that, well then you have not done a very good job of understanding the dogs you have been working with your entire life.
Do you know how hard it is to find dogs with any real level of fight drive once you leave the few breeds -- GSD, Mal, Dutchie -- that are bred to have it? It's hard enough in those breeds, but in a Golden Retriever, come on. They might bark a little, but they will not fight. They will cower.

If you don't believe me, strap on a bite suit and try it out. Everybody thinks their dog is going to protect them, but it really isn't going to happen without correct breeding, correct training and constant work. You can assume that I have done a bad job with every dog I have worked with, and that may be true, but if somebody came to your house to do wrong, I am still right that your golden retriever is, dollars to donuts, not going into fight drive once I make one move toward him.

Again, I might be wrong (I'm not) but there is a reason that there are breeding programs just for this kind of thing. If your dog isn't bred and trained for it, you really have little chance. It is the same with herding dogs. I get people telling me how their little poodles are real herders because they bite at their pants legs. That is just an annoying dog, it doesn't know what the hell to do with livestock.
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  #35  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:55 AM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Just to follow up on this, think about it this way. I assume that you practice your shooting skills, you run scenarios in your mind, you probably do some scenario based training etc. Hopefully you work out, you stay in good shape.

Now please tell me why it would be any different for a dog? They aren't, under stress, just going to happen upon their deep inside alpha wolf. It doesn't work that way. And as far as pack mentality, that is a much more fluid thing in actual dogs than in a Cesar Millan show. In short, they aren't a wolfpack with an alpha, they are more of a family group sort of dynamic, both in feral dog packs and in human society.
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  #36  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:18 AM
i9ii i9ii is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelpiemonk View Post
Sorry, but this is BS. I have worked with, trained and competed with dogs my entire life. Most good family dogs are way too scared to take on a threat, and most of the ones who would are not under any sort of responsible control.

The fact that they won't is a good thing, because dogs generally aren't all that good at assessing what is threatening and what isn't. They only understand what is scary to them and what isn't.
you have a Point but i will have to disagree with you, there's a difference between dogs and trains dogs. dogs that can't identify threats aren't trained. usually a dog will bark at an unfamiliar face approaching the house or the owner. its their to be on Alert. just a whistle or a few words from the owner should calm them down. Dogs don't attack little kids, kids most time aren't afraid to play with their tails or mess around with them.
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  #37  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:34 AM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Originally Posted by i9ii View Post
Dogs don't attack little kids, kids most time aren't afraid to play with their tails or mess around with them.
Good luck with that.
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  #38  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:45 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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Originally Posted by i9ii View Post
Dogs don't attack little kids, kids most time aren't afraid to play with their tails or mess around with them.
Dogs attack kids all the time.

Call your insurance company and ask if your homeowners insurance will go up if you choose a powerful/protective breed of dog.
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  #39  
Old 04-06-2018, 11:51 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelpiemonk View Post
Just to follow up on this, think about it this way. I assume that you practice your shooting skills, you run scenarios in your mind, you probably do some scenario based training etc. Hopefully you work out, you stay in good shape.

While all of the above are good ideas that will likely enhance performance, I think those that do such things are in the minority of gun owners, and even LE professionals- yet both routinely rise to the occasion when needed.

Now please tell me why it would be any different for a dog? They aren't, under stress, just going to happen upon their deep inside alpha wolf. It doesn't work that way.

I'd suggest that it DOES work that way, to a certian degree, both in people and dogs. Survival and protective instincts are primal, hard wired behaviors in both. I'm NOT suggesting that a purpouse trained dog won't perform better, and be far more controllable by the handler. However, the instincts, while perhaps buried to varying degrees, is still present.

And as far as pack mentality, that is a much more fluid thing in actual dogs than in a Cesar Millan show. In short, they aren't a wolfpack with an alpha, they are more of a family group sort of dynamic, both in feral dog packs and in human society.
While not as clearly apparent as with a wolfpack, I don't agree that dogs do not have a defined social hierarchy within both established packs and the "pack" that includes people. Every dog I've owned would, with only a look and a tone, immediately submit to my will. Regardless of the breed, and with no real "training" to do so- it was an established reality of the relationship that I was the Alpha, it was respected, and only very rarley challanged. When lve had multiple dogs at once, there was always a hierarchy. Mostly it was followed, sometimes challanged, and sometimes changed- the latter usually when the top dog got older, and a younger vied for position... the geriatric usually submitted in time.

The ACD that I had many years ago tore up a prospective burgler that broke into the house while I was at work. The sliding glass door that was jimmied open was smeared with blood, as was the back deck. The dog then sat at the threshold to the open door until I returned... the thief, not the brightest, went to the ER for stitches- and then called the sheriff about my "vicious" dog. Probably hoping for a a payday. He was promptly arrested and charged. The deputies that came out to the house had a good laugh about it, and were somewhat suprised by the calm, well behaved, friendy dog that they saw....

Conversely, I don't think one can or should EXPECT an aggressive, effective response from the family pet... far too many variables: breed, mindset, personality, tenacity, size, ability- the list goes on.

There's 2 extremes being debated; the reality is probably somewhere in the middle...
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  #40  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:09 PM
Black Jack Black Jack is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelpiemonk View Post
Do you know how hard it is to find dogs with any real level of fight drive once you leave the few breeds -- GSD, Mal, Dutchie -- that are bred to have it? It's hard enough in those breeds, but in a Golden Retriever, come on. They might bark a little, but they will not fight. They will cower.

If you don't believe me, strap on a bite suit and try it out. Everybody thinks their dog is going to protect them, but it really isn't going to happen without correct breeding, correct training and constant work. You can assume that I have done a bad job with every dog I have worked with, and that may be true, but if somebody came to your house to do wrong, I am still right that your golden retriever is, dollars to donuts, not going into fight drive once I make one move toward him.

Again, I might be wrong (I'm not) but there is a reason that there are breeding programs just for this kind of thing. If your dog isn't bred and trained for it, you really have little chance. It is the same with herding dogs. I get people telling me how their little poodles are real herders because they bite at their pants legs. That is just an annoying dog, it doesn't know what the hell to do with livestock.
Let em take a step back because it sounds like we are talking about two different things.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds to me like you are talking about training a dog as a "guard dog" rather than having a dog that will help protect your family and home. This is not what i am talking about. I understand that many breeds are not suitable to be trained for this job,but in that case an actual job is what the dog is being trained for, this is not the kind of training that is suitable for a family dog.

What I am saying is that any dog that has been integrated into a family, and yes I am including the Golden Retriever here, will do what it can to protect its family. Depending on the breed and temperament, that might be anything form just making noise to actually attacking in intruder. That is why I said in my first post "Depends on what you want the dog to do". Yes, a Golden Retriever will put itself between a family member and someone that it thinks is a threat and it will, in most cases, bark and growl. If that intruder actually advances on the dog, well you are correct that the Golden Retriever, along with many other breeds, will probably cringe and back off. That doesn't mean that they are not dong what they can to protect their home and family. Even a small dog that is afraid of its own shadow can make a good "guard dog" if what you are looking for is something that will make noise and wake you up.

On the other hand, if you are actually looking for a dog to train as a guard dog, then yes you want something like a German Shepherd, a Rottweiler, a Doberman, etc... But dogs trained like this have no place in the home (IMHO). These dogs also make good family dogs, but they stop being a family pet when you start training them like this.

There is a reason that these breeds are popular for that kind of training - they are naturally protective. However, depending on what you are looking for, again back to my original statement of "Depends on what you want the dog to do", I would NEVER have a family dog trained in this manner. I have seen what happens when a Doberman that is a family pet is trained in this manner and then has a 3 year old boy jump on him from behind - not pretty.
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  #41  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:30 PM
i9ii i9ii is offline
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Originally Posted by Kelpiemonk View Post
Good luck with that.
i have seen little kids pull the tail of dogs they are unfamiliar with...these Dog recognize that they are little and don't bark or hurt them..just my experience though.

i once heard a Hound killed a little boy in london years ago.
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  #42  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:34 PM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
While not as clearly apparent as with a wolfpack, I don't agree that dogs do not have a defined social hierarchy within both established packs and the "pack" that includes people. Every dog I've owned would, with only a look and a tone, immediately submit to my will. Regardless of the breed, and with no real "training" to do so- it was an established reality of the relationship that I was the Alpha, it was respected, and only very rarley challanged. When lve had multiple dogs at once, there was always a hierarchy. Mostly it was followed, sometimes challanged, and sometimes changed- the latter usually when the top dog got older, and a younger vied for position... the geriatric usually submitted in time.

In my experience it is much more fluid. My dogs work as a team, and their hierarchy at work differs from their hierarchy when it comes to food, and again to play. Mostly, I would say dogs are opportunistic social climbers, which differs significantly from wolves. They are so divorced from wolf behavior that the most significant issue in a wolfpack, that of the breeding pair, has been subsumed by the bred dog where, more like humans, breeding bitches generally come in to season at the same time and are often bred at the same time by different dogs.


The ACD that I had many years ago tore up a prospective burgler that broke into the house while I was at work. The sliding glass door that was jimmied open was smeared with blood, as was the back deck. The dog then sat at the threshold to the open door until I returned... the thief, not the brightest, went to the ER for stitches- and then called the sheriff about my "vicious" dog. Probably hoping for a a payday. He was promptly arrested and charged. The deputies that came out to the house had a good laugh about it, and were somewhat suprised by the calm, well behaved, friendy dog that they saw....

ACDs are the exception. They will guard anything connected to their owner. Not always intelligently, but they will do it.

Conversely, I don't think one can or should EXPECT an aggressive, effective response from the family pet... far too many variables: breed, mindset, personality, tenacity, size, ability- the list goes on.

There's 2 extremes being debated; the reality is probably somewhere in the middle...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Jack View Post
Let em take a step back because it sounds like we are talking about two different things.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds to me like you are talking about training a dog as a "guard dog" rather than having a dog that will help protect your family and home. This is not what i am talking about. I understand that many breeds are not suitable to be trained for this job,but in that case an actual job is what the dog is being trained for, this is not the kind of training that is suitable for a family dog.

What I am saying is that any dog that has been integrated into a family, and yes I am including the Golden Retriever here, will do what it can to protect its family. Depending on the breed and temperament, that might be anything form just making noise to actually attacking in intruder. That is why I said in my first post "Depends on what you want the dog to do". Yes, a Golden Retriever will put itself between a family member and someone that it thinks is a threat and it will, in most cases, bark and growl. If that intruder actually advances on the dog, well you are correct that the Golden Retriever, along with many other breeds, will probably cringe and back off. That doesn't mean that they are not dong what they can to protect their home and family. Even a small dog that is afraid of its own shadow can make a good "guard dog" if what you are looking for is something that will make noise and wake you up.

On the other hand, if you are actually looking for a dog to train as a guard dog, then yes you want something like a German Shepherd, a Rottweiler, a Doberman, etc... But dogs trained like this have no place in the home (IMHO). These dogs also make good family dogs, but they stop being a family pet when you start training them like this.

There is a reason that these breeds are popular for that kind of training - they are naturally protective. However, depending on what you are looking for, again back to my original statement of "Depends on what you want the dog to do", I would NEVER have a family dog trained in this manner. I have seen what happens when a Doberman that is a family pet is trained in this manner and then has a 3 year old boy jump on him from behind - not pretty.
As to the first part, we do agree. A golden retriever might very well try to guard his family, but he is not likely to fight an intruder. That is a tough thing to teach.

As to the second, that is kind of an older way of seeing protection and working dog drives. Nowadays, most dogs are trained in prey drive, not in defense drive. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, a dog is comfortable in prey drive. It is genetic. Dogs, and wolves, are very bad hunters when compared to big cats. They are mainly unsuccessful. Generally things we are bad we don't do a lot, but through evolution dogs have survived because they love to hunt as much, or more, than they love to eat. Therefore, even though they suck at it, they keep hunting. In a training/home scenario, this is manifest in things like ball and tug. Think of how obsessed a dog can be about these games. They have no reason to hunt a ball or kill a tug toy. They just do it because it feels good. Contrast this with guarding behavior. These are extremely high stress situations where the dog feels like it is in a life or death struggle. Training in this drive, defense drive, is hard on the dog, and it often leads dogs with weaker nerves to shut down and display avoidance behaviors. The avoidance behaviors are what you see in that Golden Retriever who tries, but runs off once it is kicked. The old fashioned training of dogs in defense is why these dogs, trained this way, are terrible family pets.

Another reason for working more in prey drive is that there has been a general switch from the older defense breeds, the dobies, rotts and even some old style GSDs to Mals and Dutchies. Mals and Dutchies are more sensitive dogs in many ways, and they tend to have psychotically high prey drives. They learn quickly in prey, stress out in defense.

So, the move to working in prey has been accompanied my more "modern" dog training overall. Basic obedience is taught earlier, and taught with food rather than compulsion. After that, most work is taught with a ball or tug as reward. That allows the dog to come off a bite, but not come out of prey drive. It is just transferred from bad guy (real or fake) to prey object. The dogs much prefer this since there is less pressure (punishment) and the relationship with the handler is more solid. It also makes for dogs that aren't any more dangerous to live with than other breeds.

Of course, there is eventually pressure and compulsion, but it has moved from a 20/80 have to/want to split for the dogs, to a 90/10 want to/have to. At the same time, and anybody here who is active LEO or military can attest to this, the dogs are better workers and handler aggression has diminished to almost nothing. Cops carry rubber balls or tug toys along with a collar.

With herding, which is what I do, it is a little easier. My dogs don't need a ton of traditional obedience, and the reward for good work is more work. The punishment for disobedience is to be kept off stock. Anybody who doubts this should watch a good herding dog work. Getting kicked in the head doesn't change their behavior, but being tied out while the other dogs work does.
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  #43  
Old 04-06-2018, 12:50 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Perhaps for the sake of discussion, perhaps we should define the terms we're using..

A trained "protective" dog, such as Kelpimonk describes and is familiar with. Purpose bred, purpouse trained, for this purpouse. Specific breeds are commonly used, for a varaity of reasons- first and foremost is trainability, the ability to lean to perform on command in short order, and be 95%+ reliable in following commands without hesitation...

A "watchdog" that will let you when something is amiss, but cannot be relied upon for much more...

A "guard/guardian" dog... much harder to define. May range from a non purpouse trained member of a breed commonly used for protective dogs, to a mutt with a highly active protective nature, and a lot in between.

The latter is probalbly the most appropriate for most owners. If one wants more protective instinct, certain breeds are more disposed to such behavior... larger, more powerful dogs require greater degrees of control- though even a small dog with a high fight/don't quit drive can be very dangerous. The larger ones are simply capable of inflicting more damage with less effort...

The protective dog requires a commiteed and dedicated handler, and an environment free of unintended "threat" stimuli...
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  #44  
Old 04-06-2018, 01:02 PM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post

The protective dog requires a commiteed and dedicated handler, and an environment free of unintended "threat" stimuli...
This is the most important takeaway.
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  #45  
Old 04-06-2018, 03:25 PM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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There is a lot more to keeping a dog than selecting a breed.
Large dogs especially are prone to hip issues, and of course, they eat more.

OTOH, A pal kept a lil' yappomatic terrier and his home was burgled anyway. His yapper was clubbed by the thief adding a hefty vet bill among the other losses suffered.

Chesapeake Retrievers always struck me as being fiercely protective dogs, along with Shepherds and Pinchers.
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  #46  
Old 04-06-2018, 03:29 PM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Having thought more about it, as much as I prefer Kelpies as working stock dogs, and Mals as protection dogs, Mad Max probably had it right, heelers are, in my opinion, the best combination of athleticism, brains and heart if you are going to be in a really bad situation.
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  #47  
Old 04-06-2018, 03:44 PM
Vin63 Vin63 is offline
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As the others mentioned, there are very specific areas to the term "guard dog," from personal protection, livestock/property, etc.

In my case, the best deterrent was my female GSD. She was trained in search and rescue, but had uncanny instincts for protecting my wife...she never let any stranger get close enough to touch my wife when they were on walks by positioning herself between my wife and anyone she didn't know, and bark and growl if someone reached out or moved closer than her personal space.

The best property protector was my old female Great Pyrenees who thwarted at least two burglary attempts that I know of. They were both super affectionate to family and friends and loved kids as they were both also child therapy dogs.
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  #48  
Old 04-06-2018, 05:49 PM
Markbailey Markbailey is offline
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Just my opinion, but I believe most animals are similar in this respect, humans included. Making blanket statements about breeds in regard to how they will react to agrression is foolhardy. Dogs, like people are made up of many different instincts and capibilities not always predictable. Some will fight to the death, some will attack unprovoked, some will cower at the first sign of trouble. I’ve seen all types, and often with unexpected animals. I was given a German Shepard that washed out of railroad police training 30 years or so ago. She would act agressive, but never actually bite, no matter how hard they pushed her. 5 years passed, she was a family house dog and she severly injured an intruder and was killed herself when the home was threatened, and she fought till the end. No accounting for what motivates dogs, or humans for that matter.
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  #49  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:14 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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I've got 4 Border Collies.

After they make the rounds at night, they come in, lock the back door and set the security system.......
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  #50  
Old 04-06-2018, 07:51 PM
Kelpiemonk Kelpiemonk is offline
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Occasionally, I miss having border collies.
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