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  #26  
Old 11-19-2013, 11:43 PM
pacific23 pacific23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Earl o Sammich View Post
OK. From an electrical engineer in the electric power business. First thing all gas stations are not created, or powered, equally. The most common commercial power supply would be a 208/120 three phase service. The other most common power service is 240/120 volt service. These are grounded services. You can find out by locating the service entrance. That is where the meter is. It will say right on the electric meter what type of electric service supply the facility has. You would need a generator capable of that output. Most three phase generators are switchable to various service supplies/entrances. Make sure your generator output matches what is on the meter. Also there are current transformer rated services and straight through or direct metered services. The meter will say on it CL100 (100 amp service) CL 200 (200 amp service) these go up to 400 amps or so. These are straight through meters. You can simply cut the meter seal, pull the meter off and have access to the main feed to the service entrance. The top lugs come from the power company, the bottom lugs go to the service panel. Look for the one lug in the meter socket that has a ground strap on it. The other three lugs are the three phases. A volt meter can be used to determine which lug is grounded too. Switch the meter to "OHMS" or "Resistance" and it will read zero or very close to it. There are "delta" services out there too but they will only have three wires. There is a way to tell by the Type of meter but that is a whole book. Some may be 480/277 volt but that would be rare. For connecting your generator you will need a rotation meter so you can put the right wire to the appropriate lug on the bottom of the meter socket lugs. This is called making sure you are "in phase". If three phase motors are not "phased out" first they may run backwards. If this happens simply switch any two wires location in the lugs. Also the meter may have something like CT Ratio XXX on it. If it does you cannot plug into the meter socket. You have to find the main entrance panel and break into that. There should be plenty of places to bolt connect your generator to there. Same procedures for phasing apply.

Really quite simple.



Don't do the extension cord trick unless you are absolutely sure you know which is the hot leg and which is neutral or ground. It could be a painful lesson if you get it wrong. plus it wouldn't power any 240 volt equipment like the pumps probably are.
Earl, don't forget to tell them to "UNPLUG THE METER" if your going to pull a presidential solution with a make shift power supply because I don't want to be KILLED why trying to heat you back up.

pacific23, Lineman sup. for my city.

Yes guys, if you back feed 120/240 to my transformer on my system it will "TRANSFORM" back up to 7200/12470 volts and KILL someone.
If you don't know how to do it, find someone that does.
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  #27  
Old 11-20-2013, 06:26 AM
JimB1 JimB1 is offline
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why would you bother, just hook a smaller pump to a long hose and snake it into the tank directly and pump out what you need. The tank openings where the tankers fill up the station are out in the open, you just need to open one of those and use a smaller hand pump or even one of those pumps that attaches to a drill. This is of course assuming the owner is good with you doing that...

Seems like a waste of power to power up the whole place just to get gas from the tanks...
-Jim

Last edited by JimB1; 11-20-2013 at 06:30 AM.
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  #28  
Old 11-20-2013, 06:56 AM
The Earl o Sammich The Earl o Sammich is offline
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pacific23 brings up a very good point. I said to pull the meter in a straight through service. This will disconnect your service from the utility lines. If you don't you will be energizing the the electric utility equipment and if there is any downed lines near by or utility personnel working on those lines you could kill someone. Also if the service is a CT rated service as described in my previous post, pulling the meter will do nothing to disconnect the service from the utilities lines. You will have to locate the utility feed into the panel and disconnect there.

My instructions were not meant as training or instructions on how to do this. It was really presented to show that it is not a simple task. If you don't know what you are doing, at a minimum you will fail, and at the very worse kill someone. A suction pump through the fill cap is a much easier way to get gas. It was in the news not too long ago were someone was stealing gasoline this way. They had the floor cut out of a van and they would park on top of the fill cap, lower their hose and fill up a tank in the back of the van. They got caught however so don't try this at home.
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  #29  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:08 AM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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So, I'm thinking an electric pump on the end of the generator will be the best way after sticking a hose down the hole...
Either way I got the answer....
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  #30  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:54 AM
The Earl o Sammich The Earl o Sammich is offline
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Originally Posted by Mick0610 View Post
So, I'm thinking an electric pump on the end of the generator will be the best way after sticking a hose down the hole...
Either way I got the answer....
...or a twelve volt pump run off your car electrical system.
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  #31  
Old 11-20-2013, 12:54 PM
Gary D Owens Gary D Owens is offline
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Would a 9000 watt generator be enough to power a small (900 sq. ft.) cabin?
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  #32  
Old 11-20-2013, 01:01 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I do not know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary D Owens View Post
Would a 9000 watt generator be enough to power a small (900 sq. ft.) cabin?
I guess that it all depends on how fast you want it to go.
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  #33  
Old 11-20-2013, 03:34 PM
The Earl o Sammich The Earl o Sammich is offline
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Originally Posted by Gary D Owens View Post
Would a 9000 watt generator be enough to power a small (900 sq. ft.) cabin?
More than enough. Figure somewhere beween 3.5 - 6 watts a square foot. for your peak demand. Take into account your largest motor size, probably your pump at 2 horse or so. You can kinda of figure a horse is a kW and you have 9 kW. As long as you're not running electric base board heat you would be fine. Just don't fire up the welder the refrigerator, pump, lights, etc. all at once. Switch to CFLs and you could use the lower 3 watts per square foot number.

Edited to add that an electric hot water heater will take about 5 kW.

Last edited by The Earl o Sammich; 11-20-2013 at 04:58 PM.
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2013, 10:18 PM
jam_o_matic jam_o_matic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick0610 View Post
So the power goes out and you can't pump gas at the station.
How big a generator will I need to get a pump working?
Do I hook it up at the back of the store? I want to get the current closer to
the pump without bowing myself up!!!

OR.....

Is there a manual way to get the pumps to work?

Are you intending to secure and defend a gas station? If not, why bother with trying to set up an electrical solution? Get yourself a drum pump, adapt a hose to the drop tube to put down into the tank, and do it manually. Probably looking at about $250 total but would be invaluable if SHTF and the grid goes down. Rotary Hand Drum Pump
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  #35  
Old 11-21-2013, 07:08 AM
1911sig 1911sig is offline
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Originally Posted by cauldron View Post
If it's not your gas station... You are looting. and part of the problem. If it's your station, why are you still open when everyone else bugged out?

If you are asking how to steal gas, you are going about it the wrong way. With a generator, you would still need to smash out a window, and turn the pump on.

Make sure to grab all the beer before it's cold while you are stealing stuff.

Better off to open the lid on the in ground tank and steal it that way. Less windows to break, (but no access to beef jerky and old coffee.)
Thank you it dosent matter what situation yoy are in stealing is still stealing if it is not yours don't take it
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  #36  
Old 11-21-2013, 09:22 PM
Valerko Valerko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Cro View Post

Having said that I've done numerous back feed hookups over the years but I do it differently in that I make a double 220VAC male cord and plug in through a drier, or other large 220VAC plug such as a large window A/C unit... This will provide power to your entire house and you then decide what to power up.

But first off make absolutely sure that your main breaker is off and that it stays off... If you expect to be off grid for an extended length of time go outside and pull your meter as that will absolutely prevent you from back feeding into the grid and killing service workers.
That's how I've powered my whole house (2500 sqft) during Sandy last year.
Whole week ,with 8k generator .it ran 7 days straight. Freaked 10 gallons of gas a day.
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  #37  
Old 11-22-2013, 08:26 PM
replacement replacement is offline
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just thinking,I never tried it. Get the biggest badest electric auto fuel pump avalible. On a pick- up truck you can mount it to a frame rail under the truck box. Hook the out flow to a "fill" fitting on your tank (would have to drill the tank to install). a really long rubber fuel line on the In-feed side of the pump. Drop the long hose down the into the tank. Flip the installed switch on your dash to power up the pump. I always wondered why it would not work. Maybe the pump would not function without a prime, i dont know for sure because i never tried to do this, but it always seemed an idea.
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  #38  
Old 11-22-2013, 09:36 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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It works, trust me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by replacement View Post
just thinking,I never tried it. Get the biggest badest electric auto fuel pump avalible. On a pick- up truck you can mount it to a frame rail under the truck box. Hook the out flow to a "fill" fitting on your tank (would have to drill the tank to install). a really long rubber fuel line on the In-feed side of the pump. Drop the long hose down the into the tank. Flip the installed switch on your dash to power up the pump. I always wondered why it would not work. Maybe the pump would not function without a prime, i dont know for sure because i never tried to do this, but it always seemed an idea.
Back in the seventies. We used to get gas this way all of the time.
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  #39  
Old 11-23-2013, 11:30 AM
Jesse James Jesse James is offline
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Lot of people use them in the backwoods of Kentucky. Around here people call them suicide cables. They do it for a reason. Think about it before you do it. I've done it with 220 through a welder circuit for a long time but I had a good electrician get me started. He tried to talk me out of it but I insisted. Take your time and be careful. Make a note and tape it over your main breakers so you won't forget when you're in a hurry because you hear the juice is on again.
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  #40  
Old 11-24-2013, 09:35 PM
replacement replacement is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
Back in the seventies. We used to get gas this way all of the time.
yup, pretty much thought it would.
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  #41  
Old 11-25-2013, 10:02 PM
1911cherry 1911cherry is offline
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Originally Posted by NonHyphenAmerican View Post
In my home, I discovered that the Breaker Box was "Federal Pacific".

All the electricians out there know that's not good.

So I hired a competent licensed electrician to wire in a SquareD Box and Breakers.

I also had them wire in a generator switch box.

I have 6 110 circuits and 2 220 circuits. I can run the AC, but nothing else on one 220 circuit. I can also run the 220 circuit to the shed which also powers up the submerged pump that draws from 115' down out of the Ogallala Aquifer.

The 6 110 circuits run the frig/freezers and a reasonable number of lights, etc.

One of them includes the fan motor for the HVAC which means I have heat as long as we have NG.

One of them that runs one of the freezers also runs the small re-circ pump for the solar waer heater. This gives me 110 gallons of solar heated water.

The last time we were without power for any length of time. I had the generator running the house and we were comfortable.

The generator sits outside chained to a concrete patio so ventilation isn't a problem.

It's very easy to wheel it back into the garage for safety when it's not running.
What wattage generator are you using?
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  #42  
Old 12-02-2013, 10:28 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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I apologize for not seeing this earlier.

It's a Coleman with a Honda Engine. Puts out 10,000 start/surge and 8550 run watts. Hand start, which can be a bit of a booger except I keep it "Sta-bil'd" which believe it or not means 1-2 pulls and it cranks right up.

It has a detachable 5 gallon gas tank which makes for safe easy filling.

As I sit and watch the upcoming weather, I'm REALLY glad I'm prepared and ready.

Course, I'll probably be out deer hunting so I suppose I could be called a "Nut" but it's still fun to brave the elements.

The 72 Bronco is loaded up and ready to go for Wednesdays Opening Day.
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  #43  
Old 12-02-2013, 10:32 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by replacement View Post
just thinking,I never tried it. Get the biggest badest electric auto fuel pump avalible. On a pick- up truck you can mount it to a frame rail under the truck box. Hook the out flow to a "fill" fitting on your tank (would have to drill the tank to install). a really long rubber fuel line on the In-feed side of the pump. Drop the long hose down the into the tank. Flip the installed switch on your dash to power up the pump. I always wondered why it would not work. Maybe the pump would not function without a prime, i dont know for sure because i never tried to do this, but it always seemed an idea.
I know they sell these at Northern Tool.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...3938_200603938

If you bounce it up and down on in a tank, it 'primes' the tube with liquid, including gasoline. It works great as a siphon but also works good for a small pump to prime the intake with liquid.
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  #44  
Old 01-07-2014, 09:57 PM
davekirsten davekirsten is offline
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Originally Posted by Roland Rock View Post
How do you figure that?

the grounding from the generator bonds to the house ground through the ground wire in the cord there is zero potential between the two.

That is pretty much the way it's done field expedient.

That is the way professional do it in Florida, it's the way it's done in New Jersey, it's the way it's done in Michigan, it's the way it's done in Pennsylvania.

How do you think electricians hot check a new house if they want to get paid for their work without waiting for the permanent power?

The only difference is they use a generator capable of 220V output so they can check for a phase bump.
Agree, Pedro seems to know what he is talking about. In a global anarchy situation I could implement his suggestion pretty quickly and safely.
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  #45  
Old 01-07-2014, 10:45 PM
kinnison kinnison is offline
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bypass the power and the pump I cant tell you how that would be conspericy
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  #46  
Old 01-08-2014, 08:35 AM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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I think I've learned a thing or two.
Mainly. I know very little about electricity!!!
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  #47  
Old 01-08-2014, 11:05 AM
Boomer121906 Boomer121906 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1911sig View Post
Thank you it dosent matter what situation yoy are in stealing is still stealing if it is not yours don't take it
I guess you'd rather take the moral high road if your family is starving than do what you have to..Oh well that's your choice I'll do what I have to to take care of mine and screw morals if the situation calls for it.My daughters come first and foremost and I will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to make sure they are took care of.I've done my best to prepare so that I'm not put in this situation but regardless I'll do what I have to regardless of what gets in my way I'll do my best to squash the roadblock.
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  #48  
Old 02-17-2014, 09:40 AM
bwbike bwbike is offline
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Originally Posted by NonHyphenAmerican View Post
. . . I also had them wire in a generator switch box.

I have 6 110 circuits and 2 220 circuits. I can run the AC, but nothing else on one 220 circuit. I can also run the 220 circuit to the shed which also powers up the submerged pump . . .

........^^^^^^^^^
.........This is the correct way to do it. They are commonly called a transfer switch and they start around $300 for a basic 6KW model.

It is installed between your panel & several important circuits. When you lose power, you connect your generator cord to the plug that is mounted on the outside (preferably). Then flip the 6 (or more) SPDT breakers on the transfer switch. These breakers are the 'break before make' type which makes it impossible to back feed into the power grid.

I have one on my house and it powers four important 120 VAC circuits and one 220 VAC circuit. When power is restored, just flip the breakers back to the normal position and then turn off the generator and disconnect the cord.

Easy and safe.

Do not back feed by connecting your generator cord to your dryer outlet to power your house. While it could be safe if you turn off the main panel breaker and don't exceed 30 A, if you somehow forget to turn off the main panel breaker you will back feed power to the grid. This could possibly electrocute linemen working on the grid who believe the power is off. You could also provide power to neighboring homes and severely over draw your generator.
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  #49  
Old 02-17-2014, 12:32 PM
Tooldummy Tooldummy is offline
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Last edited by Tooldummy; 02-18-2014 at 07:36 AM.
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  #50  
Old 02-17-2014, 12:39 PM
Tooldummy Tooldummy is offline
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Last edited by Tooldummy; 02-18-2014 at 07:34 AM.
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