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  #1  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:20 PM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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Preppers, help me out here!

So the power goes out and you can't pump gas at the station.
How big a generator will I need to get a pump working?
Do I hook it up at the back of the store? I want to get the current closer to
the pump without bowing myself up!!!

OR.....

Is there a manual way to get the pumps to work?
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2013, 05:15 PM
SkippySanchez SkippySanchez is offline
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Smile

I have a 500 gallon gravity tank in the back yard cleverly disguised as my kid's tree house.
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DisguisedFuelTank.jpg  
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2013, 05:25 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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If you do not know what you are doing.

I would suggest that you get a licensed contractor to help you out with this.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:42 PM
SkippySanchez SkippySanchez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
I would suggest that you get a licensed contractor to help you out with this.
I'm kidding, dude. It's just a joke.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2013, 06:55 PM
1911cherry 1911cherry is offline
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That's a lucky kid!
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:04 PM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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Point being, if you leave when the grid goes down you'll need fuel eventually.
"Closed gas stations" could be a good resource if you can pump gas...
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2013, 08:03 PM
Pedro 1 Pedro 1 is offline
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Back feed the service panel

A quick way to get power to a house:
Shut off main breakers, then the others below them that are above 20 amps.
Rig two of your heaviest lead cords with male 120v plugs on both ends.
with the first lead come from the generator and plug the other (male) end into a 120v receptacle. This powers half of your panel.
With the generator running find another circuit that is dead.
Run the second lead from your generator and plug into that dead receptacle and you have power to the whole house .
Respects, Pedro.
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2013, 08:12 PM
pacific23 pacific23 is offline
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Open the cap to the fuel tank thats in the parking lot and drop your hose down thats hooked to your 12V rail mount fuel pump and fill your ride up.
If you own the store call a Electrician and have him install a Generator that will run the whole store.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2013, 09:21 PM
cauldron cauldron is offline
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If it's not your gas station... You are looting. and part of the problem. If it's your station, why are you still open when everyone else bugged out?

If you are asking how to steal gas, you are going about it the wrong way. With a generator, you would still need to smash out a window, and turn the pump on.

Make sure to grab all the beer before it's cold while you are stealing stuff.

Better off to open the lid on the in ground tank and steal it that way. Less windows to break, (but no access to beef jerky and old coffee.)
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2013, 04:50 AM
Mick0610 Mick0610 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro 1 View Post
A quick way to get power to a house:
Shut off main breakers, then the others below them that are above 20 amps.
Rig two of your heaviest lead cords with male 120v plugs on both ends.
with the first lead come from the generator and plug the other (male) end into a 120v receptacle. This powers half of your panel.
With the generator running find another circuit that is dead.
Run the second lead from your generator and plug into that dead receptacle and you have power to the whole house .
Respects, Pedro.
Thanks for the info!
I figured someone could help!
Looting! Yeah, whatever....... You might be helping the owner!
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  #11  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:02 AM
T Cro T Cro is offline
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Originally Posted by Mick0610 View Post
Thanks for the info!
I figured someone could help!
Looting! Yeah, whatever....... You might be helping the owner!
Be very cautious with the helpful info as while indeed viable it is extremely dangerous and if not done properly it can be absolutely deadly....

Double male cords if plugged into a live power source become widow makers if not handled with care as the exposed male prongs are energized...

In areas of heavy damage the power company may demand that your generator be shut down and disconnected if they find that it is hooked up via back feed cords to protect their linemen from possible electrocution of an improperly hooked up back feed system.

Having said that I've done numerous back feed hookups over the years but I do it differently in that I make a double 220VAC male cord and plug in through a drier, or other large 220VAC plug such as a large window A/C unit... This will provide power to your entire house and you then decide what to power up.

But first off make absolutely sure that your main breaker is off and that it stays off... If you expect to be off grid for an extended length of time go outside and pull your meter as that will absolutely prevent you from back feeding into the grid and killing service workers.
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:30 AM
Boomer121906 Boomer121906 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro 1 View Post
A quick way to get power to a house:
Shut off main breakers, then the others below them that are above 20 amps.
Rig two of your heaviest lead cords with male 120v plugs on both ends.
with the first lead come from the generator and plug the other (male) end into a 120v receptacle. This powers half of your panel.
With the generator running find another circuit that is dead.
Run the second lead from your generator and plug into that dead receptacle and you have power to the whole house .
Respects, Pedro.
So Pedro whats gonna happen when you end up plugging into two outlets on the same phase. Boom ,no gas and no generator or atleast blowed fuses.

I guess as long as like you said leave all the smaller breakers on the the dead outlet will be on the other phase. At first I didn't see how you was doing it but while typing I see what your doing.but gonna post anyways.

IF you don't know exactly what your doing you could end up dead or permanently injured. I'm a electrician and know what I'm doing but still was in a accident when a 2000 amp 480 volt MDP decided it was time to blow up on me and a buddy and we were both burned severly. Me with 50% and him 10% of total body burned.

There's lots of ways to back feed a panel and if I needed to I would hardwire it. But that's not advisable unless you know exactly what your doing.

IF I'm trying to grab gas in a SHTF scenario I would rig a pump to get it out of the man hole.I've never wired a gas station but would think alot of the pumps could be three phase. But I could be wrong.
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  #13  
Old 11-17-2013, 11:28 AM
grubbylabs grubbylabs is offline
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I am not an electrician but I have wired enough of my own stuff to know I would not want to mess with trying some thing like that. I was bit by a saw that some one had farmered once and that is more experience with being electrocuted than I really needed.
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2013, 07:34 PM
redcaddy51 redcaddy51 is offline
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If you just want to run the pumps, the attending electronics, and a minumum of lights, a 5.5 KW portable will do nicely. It worked well enough to pump all the inground tanks dry, before re supply,

A 4 KW will run the commercial coffee pots. (bottled water) OR the ice maker, not both. A 25 KW diesel genset will run it all...

Lesson's learned during Katrina, at a Circle K in SW Florida.

Paul

A common centrifugal or gear type, brass/bronze hand pump (Harbor freight) will transfer from inground tanks to vehicles. Slow but effective.
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:52 PM
Valerko Valerko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro 1 View Post
A quick way to get power to a house:
Shut off main breakers, then the others below them that are above 20 amps.
Rig two of your heaviest lead cords with male 120v plugs on both ends.
with the first lead come from the generator and plug the other (male) end into a 120v receptacle. This powers half of your panel.
With the generator running find another circuit that is dead.
Run the second lead from your generator and plug into that dead receptacle and you have power to the whole house .
Respects, Pedro.
I sure hope you are not an electrician.
That has to be worst advice ever. Plus, I'm pretty sure actual pump uses more then 20A.
BTW: what if pump runs on 220v?
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2013, 09:31 PM
Pedro 1 Pedro 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerko View Post
I sure hope you are not an electrician.
That has to be worst advice ever. Plus, I'm pretty sure actual pump uses more then 20A.
BTW: what if pump runs on 220v?
I stand by my post on a quick way to get power to a house.
You can also back feed as T Cro mentioned using a double male 220V cord.
I didn't give any advice on pumps.
Pedro.
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  #17  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:13 AM
Roland Rock Roland Rock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Cro View Post
Having said that I've done numerous back feed hookups over the years but I do it differently in that I make a double 220VAC male cord and plug in through a drier, or other large 220VAC plug such as a large window A/C unit... This will provide power to your entire house and you then decide what to power up.

But first off make absolutely sure that your main breaker is off and that it stays off... If you expect to be off grid for an extended length of time go outside and pull your meter as that will absolutely prevent you from back feeding into the grid and killing service workers.
And That...is how it is done.

Yes, I do have a master electricians license

Having said that, do everyone a favor including yourself and just get a hand crank siphon pump.
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  #18  
Old 11-18-2013, 08:43 AM
Pat-inCO Pat-inCO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro 1
A quick way to get power to a house:
Shut off main breakers, then the others below them that are above 20 amps.
Rig two of your heaviest lead cords with male 120v plugs on both ends.
with the first lead come from the generator and plug the other (male) end into a 120v receptacle. This powers half of your panel.
With the generator running find another circuit that is dead.
Run the second lead from your generator and plug into that dead receptacle and you have power to the whole house .
There is a Darwin award waiting for a place to happen.

Set up that way you would have your generator "floating" above ground.
Which means that if YOU make the said connection to ground,
the current, all of it, from the generator goes through YOU.

Like I said, a Darwin award waiting to happen.
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:58 AM
Roland Rock Roland Rock is offline
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Originally Posted by Pat-inCO View Post
There is a Darwin award waiting for a place to happen.

Set up that way you would have your generator "floating" above ground.
How do you figure that?

the grounding from the generator bonds to the house ground through the ground wire in the cord there is zero potential between the two.

That is pretty much the way it's done field expedient.

That is the way professional do it in Florida, it's the way it's done in New Jersey, it's the way it's done in Michigan, it's the way it's done in Pennsylvania.

How do you think electricians hot check a new house if they want to get paid for their work without waiting for the permanent power?

The only difference is they use a generator capable of 220V output so they can check for a phase bump.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2013, 02:03 PM
Gabe Asher Gabe Asher is offline
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Seems like a lot of people, that might not even know anything about the subject, just want to join in the "Safety Sam" gang pile-on of Pedro for him just trying to share some knowledge.

A lot of city boys nowadays are so pansyfied and reliant on the their modern luxuries and the grid...they would not last a week in true shtf situation !!
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  #21  
Old 11-19-2013, 02:15 PM
Levian Levian is offline
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Originally Posted by Gabe Asher View Post
Seems like a lot of people, that might not even know anything about the subject, just want to join in the "Safety Sam" gang pile-on of Pedro for him just trying to share some knowledge.

A lot of city boys nowadays are so pansyfied and reliant on the their modern luxuries and the grid...they would not last a week in true shtf situation !!
When you come from an environment where anything remotely dangerous should only be touched by a licensed professional after permits are pulled and the job is inspected by a licensed inspector before, during, and after it can be tough to break the fear of doing risky things yourself. Of course what these folks aren't told is the master electrician's 18 y/o helper knows about as much about wiring and circuitry as they (the homeowner) do, and he's the one fiddling with half of it, often times unsupervised because the master/journeyman they're working under has other stuff to finish. But if everyone had the chutzpah for DIY work, folks like me who repair things others are afraid to touch, would be out of work lol.
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  #22  
Old 11-19-2013, 02:31 PM
Boomer121906 Boomer121906 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Asher View Post
Seems like a lot of people, that might not even know anything about the subject, just want to join in the "Safety Sam" gang pile-on of Pedro for him just trying to share some knowledge.

A lot of city boys nowadays are so pansyfied and reliant on the their modern luxuries and the grid...they would not last a week in true shtf situation !!
I'm no "safety Sam" Electricity is like firearms. They are nothing to play with and no second chances.It can/will end your life just as fast. I'm very lucky and thankful to be alive today and I knew exactly what I was doing and was working at a place that had more safety protocols in place than 10 other places I had worked before combined.

After my accident the entire area of electricians changed alot of safety policies. I'm hopeful no one else ends up like me. I have alot of friends that still work in the field and glad they aren't having to take the same risk as I did.

Pedros advice wasn't completely wrong it's just that people that know what their talking about realizes the danger if someone doesn't pay attention and know exactly what they are doing.
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  #23  
Old 11-19-2013, 02:39 PM
Boomer121906 Boomer121906 is offline
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Originally Posted by Valerko View Post
I sure hope you are not an electrician.
That has to be worst advice ever. Plus, I'm pretty sure actual pump uses more then 20A.
BTW: what if pump runs on 220v?
The amperage doesn't have a big part in this role unless your trying to use a small "bunny fart " tailgate generator. .
And for the 220v That's why you feed two diff outlets that's on two different phases. The two circuits of 110-120v would back feed the panel 208-220v
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  #24  
Old 11-19-2013, 03:02 PM
The Earl o Sammich The Earl o Sammich is offline
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OK. From an electrical engineer in the electric power business. First thing all gas stations are not created, or powered, equally. The most common commercial power supply would be a 208/120 three phase service. The other most common power service is 240/120 volt service. These are grounded services. You can find out by locating the service entrance. That is where the meter is. It will say right on the electric meter what type of electric service supply the facility has. You would need a generator capable of that output. Most three phase generators are switchable to various service supplies/entrances. Make sure your generator output matches what is on the meter. Also there are current transformer rated services and straight through or direct metered services. The meter will say on it CL100 (100 amp service) CL 200 (200 amp service) these go up to 400 amps or so. These are straight through meters. You can simply cut the meter seal, pull the meter off and have access to the main feed to the service entrance. The top lugs come from the power company, the bottom lugs go to the service panel. Look for the one lug in the meter socket that has a ground strap on it. The other three lugs are the three phases. A volt meter can be used to determine which lug is grounded too. Switch the meter to "OHMS" or "Resistance" and it will read zero or very close to it. There are "delta" services out there too but they will only have three wires. There is a way to tell by the Type of meter but that is a whole book. Some may be 480/277 volt but that would be rare. For connecting your generator you will need a rotation meter so you can put the right wire to the appropriate lug on the bottom of the meter socket lugs. This is called making sure you are "in phase". If three phase motors are not "phased out" first they may run backwards. If this happens simply switch any two wires location in the lugs. Also the meter may have something like CT Ratio XXX on it. If it does you cannot plug into the meter socket. You have to find the main entrance panel and break into that. There should be plenty of places to bolt connect your generator to there. Same procedures for phasing apply.

Really quite simple.



Don't do the extension cord trick unless you are absolutely sure you know which is the hot leg and which is neutral or ground. It could be a painful lesson if you get it wrong. plus it wouldn't power any 240 volt equipment like the pumps probably are.

Last edited by The Earl o Sammich; 11-19-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-19-2013, 10:54 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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In my home, I discovered that the Breaker Box was "Federal Pacific".

All the electricians out there know that's not good.

So I hired a competent licensed electrician to wire in a SquareD Box and Breakers.

I also had them wire in a generator switch box.

I have 6 110 circuits and 2 220 circuits. I can run the AC, but nothing else on one 220 circuit. I can also run the 220 circuit to the shed which also powers up the submerged pump that draws from 115' down out of the Ogallala Aquifer.

The 6 110 circuits run the frig/freezers and a reasonable number of lights, etc.

One of them includes the fan motor for the HVAC which means I have heat as long as we have NG.

One of them that runs one of the freezers also runs the small re-circ pump for the solar waer heater. This gives me 110 gallons of solar heated water.

The last time we were without power for any length of time. I had the generator running the house and we were comfortable.

The generator sits outside chained to a concrete patio so ventilation isn't a problem.

It's very easy to wheel it back into the garage for safety when it's not running.
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