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  #26  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:36 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Exactly. And now Trump says he's considering a quarantine of NYC and NJ...

Where are all of the "Don't Tread on Me" folks now?????
I brought this up weeks ago when there was first talk of travel restrictions and lockdowns.... and the response here was "meh..." However, NICS gets shut down, and everyone flips a lid....

Rather Animal Farm-esq... "All rights are created equal- but some are more equal than others".

If you're not willing to make some noise about ordered lockdowns (with criminal sanctions for violation), and closed interstate borders, you've lost all credibility on any Constitutional issue- including the 2A. You've forfeited your opinion....
That’s a tad much......even from you.
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  #27  
Old 03-28-2020, 05:32 PM
sambob sambob is offline
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Well when this Is all over I can see "A LOT" of politicians that will be removed from and "NEVER" hold office again....ever.
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  #28  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:09 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I brought this up weeks ago when there was first talk of travel restrictions and lockdowns.... and the response here was "meh..." However, NICS gets shut down, and everyone flips a lid....

Rather Animal Farm-esq... "All rights are created equal- but some are more equal than others".

If you're not willing to make some noise about ordered lockdowns (with criminal sanctions for violation), and closed interstate borders, you've lost all credibility on any Constitutional issue- including the 2A. You've forfeited your opinion....

Absolutely. You either believe in ALL of the Constitution, or you don't. One doesn't pick and choose those things you believe in and those you don't. We already have plenty of the latter. They're called "politicians".
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  #29  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:14 PM
Miles42 Miles42 is offline
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stay at home. don't spread the problem to others. its a simple request
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  #30  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:18 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Don't know if it is legal for a Governor to do it per se, but the CDC can...They sourced their power to the commerce clause in the Constitution...(I also posted this link in the "Virus" thread.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/about...isolation.html

So if POTUS or any Governor gets the support of the CDC it will be difficult for someone to win a suite...

That leads to the other thread: "The next civil war", and we know how serious to take that one. If anyone thinks someone is going to storm a governor's mansion, the white house or the CDC over this, they better go get their temperature checked ;-).

And before someone gets outraged and accusing me of not supporting the constitution, whether I like this or not, or you like it or not, is not the discussion, it is whether it is legal, and apparently it is...The only way you can prove it is un--Constitutional is to either do it in court, or the "next Civil War" ;-). Good luck with both options. For NYC, maybe due to the scale involved you might have a chance in the suite, on the other had, I wouldn't take the side of the bet that any judge would overturn it in what has now been called a "war".
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Last edited by combat auto; 03-28-2020 at 06:44 PM.
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  #31  
Old 03-28-2020, 09:18 PM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Don't know if it is legal for a Governor to do it per se, but the CDC can...They sourced their power to the commerce clause in the Constitution...(I also posted this link in the "Virus" thread.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/about...isolation.html

So if POTUS or any Governor gets the support of the CDC it will be difficult for someone to win a suite...

That leads to the other thread: "The next civil war", and we know how serious to take that one. If anyone thinks someone is going to storm a governor's mansion, the white house or the CDC over this, they better go get their temperature checked ;-).

And before someone gets outraged and accusing me of not supporting the constitution, whether I like this or not, or you like it or not, is not the discussion, it is whether it is legal, and apparently it is...The only way you can prove it is un--Constitutional is to either do it in court, or the "next Civil War" ;-). Good luck with both options. For NYC, maybe due to the scale involved you might have a chance in the suite, on the other had, I wouldn't take the side of the bet that any judge would overturn it in what has now been called a "war".
Constitutionality of an overarching quarantine is highly debatable. The commerce clause cited, CLEARLY applies to INDIVIDUALS. Nowhere is an "en masse" incarceration or quarantine mentioned. Nowhere. That any politician, be they a governor or a pOTUS, believes they can invoke a quarantine "en masse" should immediately be challenged in court.

And I suspect it will be. And Damn Well should be.

What I'm amazed at is the willingness of so many here to rollover and accept it like an electric prod up a minks ass.

EDIT:. In fact, a Federal Quarantine Order has to be filled out for EACH PERSON placed under Federal Quarantine Order per the CDC ,via the Commerce Clause. So the Feds are going to do that for 9 million people??? Yeah..... Right.....

Last edited by TRSOtto; 03-29-2020 at 12:11 AM.
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  #32  
Old 03-28-2020, 10:05 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
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Originally Posted by combat auto View Post
Don't know if it is legal for a Governor to do it per se, but the CDC can...They sourced their power to the commerce clause in the Constitution...(I also posted this link in the "Virus" thread.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/about...isolation.html

So if POTUS or any Governor gets the support of the CDC it will be difficult for someone to win a suite...

That leads to the other thread: "The next civil war", and we know how serious to take that one. If anyone thinks someone is going to storm a governor's mansion, the white house or the CDC over this, they better go get their temperature checked ;-).

And before someone gets outraged and accusing me of not supporting the constitution, whether I like this or not, or you like it or not, is not the discussion, it is whether it is legal, and apparently it is...The only way you can prove it is un--Constitutional is to either do it in court, or the "next Civil War" 😉. Good luck with both options. For NYC, maybe due to the scale involved you might have a chance in the suite, on the other had, I wouldn't take the side of the bet that any judge would overturn it in what has now been called a "war".
Constitutionality of an overarching quarantine is highly debatable. The commerce clause cited, CLEARLY applies to INDIVIDUALS. Nowhere is an "en masse" incarceration or quarantine mentioned. Nowhere. That any politician, be they a governor or a pOTUS, believes they can invoke a quarantine "en masse" should immediately be challenged in court.

And I suspect it will be. And Damn Well should be.

What I'm amazed at is the willingness of so many here to rollover and accept it like an electric prod up a minks ass.
Reread the previous couple of posts...... I suspect you just like to play the internet tough guy, but no one I see here is ‘rolling over’.

If you really believe that, they offer online reading Comp courses.

But by all means, be the tip of the spear. Go hire yourself a firm to take anything to the courts over this. Good luck.
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  #33  
Old 03-28-2020, 10:43 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Old Remus usually has some wisdom to dispense with.

Got food? Ammo? Meds? It's too late now to prepare adequately for the pandemic much less the impending derailment of civilization itself. Preppers were calmly topping off their stashes in early January, at regular prices, in any quantity with lots-o'-choices. They saw the foreshadow of this emergency and acted appropriately. Prepping always looks crazy until the rug gets pulled. Paranoia is a survival tool, panic is not.

Systems are visibly collapsing. The stock market is out-crashing the 1929 debacle in both speed and depth. "No Admittance" signs are posted at hospitals and needed surgeries are being cancelled. Police aren't responding to anything less then a murder in progress. Cities are opening the prison doors and chasing off the inmates. Food wholesalers were cleaned out in a fortnight and many can't restock enough to matter. Others have stopped answering their phones.

Guns and ammo are selling at a record rate. Dealers say even anti-gun leftists are buying 'em. No one will say it, but it won't take much scarcity for the perpetual EBT Diversity to go where the food and supplies are. It's just there they'll meet real resistance for the first time in their lives. The suburbs have learned their family freezers are worth more than social posing. Unlike the stock market, price discovery will be utterly reliable when it comes to fried chicken and a six pack.

Our Open Borders Diversities already clog the ER and get it all for free because you're paying their bills. Activists will choose the most deserving victims and it won't be the Deplorables. Compulsory charity can't be any other way. Tribal loyalty or redemption will be served. Either way, traditional Americans are a problem to be solved and inaction leaves no fingerprints.

The CDC had one job. Virology. Other countries had reliable test kits ready to go, in sufficient quantity to be useful. The technology is decades old yet the "renowned" CDC managed to botch it. The CDC distributed excuses and promises. N95 masks? Ventilators? Um, no. Maybe eventually, their Top Men are working on it. Somehow they always have plenty of everything to "fight the epidemic of obesity and racism" but not enough to perform their mandate. The CDC is useless and incompetent, an 11 billion dollar scam, benefiting no one except otherwise unemployable social activists.

Meanwhile, Russia is shipping nine planeloads of medics and surplus equipment and supplies to Italy, including ventilators.

I am a little bit wondering when widespread disorder will begin? No doubt it is just around the corner. With over three million wage earners laid off of their jobs last week, it is inevitable. I will reiterate what I have been saying all along. It is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. God help all of you people that live in big cities. The world a year from now will be far different from the world of December of 2019. That is a fact, best to get used to it.
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  #34  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:04 PM
SpringerXD SpringerXD is offline
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God help all of you people that live in big cities.
This is only one of many reasons why I have zero desire to live in a big city. For me, the ideal is to be within a reasonable distance from a city, but on the outskirts. And by "outskirts," I mean several miles away.
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  #35  
Old 03-28-2020, 11:12 PM
NonHyphenAmerican NonHyphenAmerican is offline
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So when all computers, printers and internet capable devices are seized in order to manage the dissemination of information, will that be a problem?

When all Churches Buildings are closed and preaching of sermons is prohibited, will that be a problem?

When your bank accounts are seized and all of your savings, retirement funds and pension funds seize for use by the Government, will that be a problem?

When all privately owned firearms and ammunition are prohibited and seized, will that be a problem?

When the quartering of Federal Troops is imposed upon you in your own home at your expense, will that be a problem?

When "Them The Government" decides that where you live, the size of your home and your ownership of personal belongings doesn't fall within their guidelines so they forcibly relocate you based on their whims, will that be a problem?

When "Them The Government" decides that you're too old, fat, infirm, or handicapped to receive medical care, food, clothing or shelter, will that be a problem?

For anyone who thinks that none of then above can or will happen, you're either blind, willfully ignorant, or you're lying to yourself and others.

It's happening now.

One small incremental step at a time and it's happening all over the world.

That we're letting it happen in America is a crying shame.


Edited to add: I started advocating months ago that we should totally QUARANTINE all traffic to and from Communist China and to and from any Nation that didn't have a Quarantine in place with the Chi-Coms.

I, like President Trump was accused of being racist.

Quarantining one state from another is totally ineffective and UnConstitional.

Initiating a Quarantine to stop the infection from coming from another Country would have done nothing to infringe upon the Rights of Americans.

But WAY too much money is made off Cruise Ships and Air Travel so "Them The Government" didn't want to shut down that money pipeline.

Now we're going to pay for that greedy shortsightedness.


Anecdotally, my Dads VA appointment for his Oncologist was cancelled. It has not been re-scheduled at this time.
What do you think cancellations like that are going to do to elderly Veterans dealing with chronic health issues?
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  #36  
Old 03-29-2020, 05:50 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
Constitutionality of an overarching quarantine is highly debatable. The commerce clause cited, CLEARLY applies to INDIVIDUALS. Nowhere is an "en masse" incarceration or quarantine mentioned. Nowhere. That any politician, be they a governor or a pOTUS, believes they can invoke a quarantine "en masse" should immediately be challenged in court.

And I suspect it will be. And Damn Well should be.

What I'm amazed at is the willingness of so many here to rollover and accept it like an electric prod up a minks ass.

EDIT:. In fact, a Federal Quarantine Order has to be filled out for EACH PERSON placed under Federal Quarantine Order per the CDC ,via the Commerce Clause. So the Feds are going to do that for 9 million people??? Yeah..... Right.....
I appreciate although don't agree with your analysis in par-1...The outrage at being amazed about people here is pretty meaningless though, if you were truly outraged you would go petition somewhere or start a lawsuit. They already quarantined a town in NY called New Rochelle -600 people, so you have plenty of reason to take your outrage and do some good...I'm not trying to "single" you out per se, but I do find it amazing the amount of outrage people use on this forum to replace rational discussion about the law, albeit usually gun law.
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  #37  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:00 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Reread the previous couple of posts...... I suspect you just like to play the internet tough guy, but no one I see here is ‘rolling over’.

If you really believe that, they offer online reading Comp courses.

But by all means, be the tip of the spear. Go hire yourself a firm to take anything to the courts over this. Good luck.
Agree.
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  #38  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:06 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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It is like the next Civil War threads, a bunch of outraged internet participants telling everyone how brave they are and doing nothing about it but waiving a fist in the air. It is comic relief though. I've always found after 60+ years of human interaction that (generally, some exceptions of course), the ones who do the most threatening actually do the least when the "beeper" goes off.

So lets keep the "Outrage" at others out of this discussion (we can save it for the next-"Next Civil War" thread ;-) - there is always another one) and get back to discussing the issue on the merits. It makes for a much more interesting discussion vs comparison's of who is the most outraged. :-)
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  #39  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:42 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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POTUS may come out with the NYC/part of CT/NJ lockdown today and then again he may not if he gets a lot of push back...Cuomo, who although supported the New Rachelle lock-down in NY, doesn't support a total NYC lock-down. So anyone who is against it can donate to Cumo's lawsuit if POTUS follow's through. Great way to manifest your outrage.
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  #40  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:49 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Prohibiting the interstate travel of citizens, regardless of situation or circumstance, is worrisome.

While, in theory, I'd be happy for it to be a felony for anyone from NY, NJ, and points North, to stop and exit the I95 in NC, freedoms of movement is Constitutionally protected....
It seems easy for you to pontificate while talking out both sides of your mouth, ie, cracks about felony’s for NY,NJ. The fact is, as combat auto posted,kindly refute thishttps://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/about...isolation.html ). the cdc has the authority, which goes toward containment and reducing the potential spread of the virus. Its far and away different than instantly taking away someone’s God given right to protect themselves under 2A. The other fact is, This is ALL about the economics, and how long can this country be effectively shut down. If you believe that theres no value in reading the data and (according to you) constitutionally allow people to roam free like nothing happened, then say so. Im in the hospital everyday putting myself and family at risk and have done so for 30+ years regardless of the current epidemic, pandemic or problem. So,why dont you go to your local hospital and volunteer..(and leave your mask and gloves off)

Last edited by Plantar5; 03-29-2020 at 06:51 AM.
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  #41  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:55 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Right on Plant!

It is beyond preposterous that anyone can make the claim that the CDC actions against a virus is setting precedents for anti 2A action which would have any chance of being held up in the courts.

"Yea, the government makes me follow rules to get rid of my garbage! Yikes, if they can force me to do the right thing about my garbage, they will take my guns away too!" People need to take deep breaths, let go of their self-righteous-outrage (cause that is what it is), and use some gray matter.
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  #42  
Old 03-29-2020, 07:19 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Just checked POTUS's twitter, looks like he is backing off the NYC+ quarantine after consultation with the Governors and CDC.

Too bad, no reason for outrage now.

What we have now though is a half ass quarantine in our country, and what we are relying on really is heard-immunity of sorts for resolution. I don't necessarily have a problem with this, but it likely isn't going to end anytime soon. Right now we have the young and middle aged population home 24X7 keeping them in the same areas that older retired folks with preconditions frequent during the day. Get the people back to work who want to work, give them gloves and masks, social distancing too, because the 1/2 ass quarantine approach is fairly (not totally) worthless.
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  #43  
Old 03-29-2020, 08:00 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Anyway, I'm going to do something productive now and see if I can forage for some toilet-paper on the internet - LOL!
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  #44  
Old 03-29-2020, 08:44 AM
TRSOtto TRSOtto is offline
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Originally Posted by Plantar5 View Post
It seems easy for you to pontificate while talking out both sides of your mouth, ie, cracks about felony’s for NY,NJ. The fact is, as combat auto posted,kindly refute thishttps://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/about...isolation.html ). the cdc has the authority, which goes toward containment and reducing the potential spread of the virus. Its far and away different than instantly taking away someone’s God given right to protect themselves under 2A. The other fact is, This is ALL about the economics, and how long can this country be effectively shut down. If you believe that theres no value in reading the data and (according to you) constitutionally allow people to roam free like nothing happened, then say so. Im in the hospital everyday putting myself and family at risk and have done so for 30+ years regardless of the current epidemic, pandemic or problem. So,why dont you go to your local hospital and volunteer..(and leave your mask and gloves off)
I would urge you to read the complete section that you and CA have chosen to cite. It clearly refers to INDIVIDUALS, not an en masse incarceration.

LOL @ you guys. If Obama even breathed doing something like this, you'd be burning his likeness in effigy. But you're clearly willing to give the current administration a total pass without even questioning the constitutionality of such a move.
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  #45  
Old 03-29-2020, 10:12 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
I would urge you to read the complete section that you and CA have chosen to cite. It clearly refers to INDIVIDUALS, not an en masse incarceration.

LOL @ you guys. If Obama even breathed doing something like this, you'd be burning his likeness in effigy. But you're clearly willing to give the current administration a total pass without even questioning the constitutionality of such a move.
I did read it.

Oh boy, we’re going to try and equate Obama admin and decision making to Trumps? Go for it.
Obama didnt make one thing better in 8 years and many worse,but yet was praised, insulated and protected. (Benghazi, ADA, not to mention trying to undermine Trumps campaign’16)

Trump, conversely, is chastised for everything he says or does.

Btw, Trump did not issue the national quarantine. I’ll say it again, this is going to come down to the economics. There will be calculated decisions going forward to open things up, and it may be ahead of the data, or the data will re-interpreted, and protocols adjusted. It happens all the time.

Last edited by Plantar5; 03-29-2020 at 10:14 AM.
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  #46  
Old 03-29-2020, 10:22 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
I would urge you to read the complete section that you and CA have chosen to cite. It clearly refers to INDIVIDUALS, not an en masse incarceration.

LOL @ you guys. If Obama even breathed doing something like this, you'd be burning his likeness in effigy. But you're clearly willing to give the current administration a total pass without even questioning the constitutionality of such a move.
Your'e re arranging deck chairs on RMS Titanic mate. Doesn't matter that un Constitutional is un Constitutional....
By their logic, AW and magazine capacity bans ARE Constitutional- there are dozens of jurisdictions with such restrictions, and dozens of Federal Court (up to the Circuit Courts of Appeal level) have almost uniformly upheld them... if the Courts say so, it MUST be right...
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  #47  
Old 03-29-2020, 10:30 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Your'e re arranging deck chairs on RMS Titanic mate. Doesn't matter that un Constitutional is un Constitutional....
By their logic, AW and magazine capacity bans ARE Constitutional- there are dozens of jurisdictions with such restrictions, and dozens of Federal Court (up to the Circuit Courts of Appeal level) have almost uniformly upheld them... if the Courts say so, it MUST be right...
Your logic is very flawed, ridiculous on the face of it. Because someone thinks one law is constitutional it don't follow they think all laws are constitutional.

And not true, and proof is we are suing on Constitutional grounds to follow up on our beliefs (mag-limit, carry-rights, red-flag), much more valuable vs the self-righteous-indignation of the internet worriers who do nothing to back-up their beliefs except waive a finger in the air.

As suggested by several of us, if you feel so threatened about what is going on concerning the quarantine issue go sue someone, otherwise it is just hot-air...Seriously, that is all it is...
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  #48  
Old 03-29-2020, 10:40 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Not true, and proof is we are suing on Constitutional grounds to follow up on our beliefs (mag-limit, carry-rights, red-flag), much more valuable vs the self-righteous-indignation of the internet worriers who do nothing to back-up their beliefs except waive a finger in the air.

As suggested by several of us, if you feel so threatened about what is going on go sue someone, otherwise it is just hot-air.
It is true, because every such case has been stopped dead- and SCOTUS hasn't even considered taking one....

For good or ill, I don't have the means or organizational support to actually do anything at this point...

Whats scary is that so many that claim to be serious supporters of the Constitution are just taking a knee.... because this restriction doesn't impact them, they don't care... or their focus is so narrower that they can't see it... or their understanding of the Constitution is limited to parroting pro 2A cliches, and they know nothing beyond that.

There's a wee bit more to the Constitution than the 2A...
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  #49  
Old 03-29-2020, 10:54 AM
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Posts: 12,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
It is true, because every such case has been stopped dead- and SCOTUS hasn't even considered taking one....

For good or ill, I don't have the means or organizational support to actually do anything at this point...

Whats scary is that so many that claim to be serious supporters of the Constitution are just taking a knee.... because this restriction doesn't impact them, they don't care... or their focus is so narrower that they can't see it... or their understanding of the Constitution is limited to parroting pro 2A cliches, and they know nothing beyond that.

There's a wee bit more to the Constitution than the 2A...
What knee, that is just internet BS talk, you are the one with the cliches's...Fact is you are doing absolutely nothing to back up your beliefs and making excuses not to do so. That is fine in and by itself, but stop with the self righteous indignation vs others beliefs, it is not becoming of you, I know you are more intelligent than resorting to such nonsense.

You think the CDC powers are unconstitutional - go do something about it. Stop referring your inaction's to others who don't feel the same way. You're taking a knee, your a sheep, and any of the other internet cliches you have used, just turn them towards the correct person (you).

Self-Righteous-Indignation is a scary thing, usually a reflection of lack of critical thought.
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Last edited by combat auto; 03-29-2020 at 11:08 AM.
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  #50  
Old 03-29-2020, 11:00 AM
Plantar5 Plantar5 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 6,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
It is true, because every such case has been stopped dead- and SCOTUS hasn't even considered taking one....

For good or ill, I don't have the means or organizational support to actually do anything at this point...

Whats scary is that so many that claim to be serious supporters of the Constitution are just taking a knee.... because this restriction doesn't impact them, they don't care... or their focus is so narrower that they can't see it... or their understanding of the Constitution is limited to parroting pro 2A cliches, and they know nothing beyond that.

There's a wee bit more to the Constitution than the 2A...
SCOTUS cherry picking cases is no fault of anyone’s but Scotus.

Ive made multiple contributions to cases without saying a word beyond my close network of friends. Its much easier to stay in the background and say “I can’t “.

Ive not walked a mile in your shoes, Don’t pontificate and pronounce youve walked a mile in mine.
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