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  #126  
Old 06-10-2019, 02:53 PM
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AndyC AndyC is offline
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I carry whatever's appropriate at that time, be it 1911s or others.
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  #127  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:26 PM
Pat-inCO Pat-inCO is online now
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[QUOTE="jjfitch"] You'll want to read the entire Miami-Dade shoot out "after action report".
Your head will explode. The FBI was woefully under gunned and underprepared for
engaging fully trained aggressors with "long guns"! [QUOTE]
I doubt it.

The first MOPE shot was hit with a 9mm that went through his arm, into his chest and
stopped just shy of entering his heart. The autopsy said that it was a fatal wound, but
NOT immediately fatal. That let him recover from the initial shock, grab a Ruger Mini14
from the back seat and proceed to make a mess for the FBI.

If you read the report from Aubry Patrick (FBI analyst that wrote the summary), the 10mm
was a few (IIRC 3) points ahead of the .45ACP. His comment (once again IIRC) was that
a case could easily be made for the .45ACP in place of the 10mm. Had that happened,
we would NOT have the .40S&W, which was created to match the "FBI 10mm" load.

I'll bet that we would also have a higher likely hood of the .45ACP being the current FBI
round.
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  #128  
Old 06-10-2019, 04:57 PM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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The FBI Miami-Dade shootout prompted a cartridge solution to a training and preparedness problem (that's my take when I read accounts of the incident). Same thing might have happened with .45 ACP or 10mm in play.

New recruits are going to be, or already are, a lot of snowflakes, so, maybe we need a fresh round of wars to harden the next generation or two.
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  #129  
Old 06-10-2019, 06:03 PM
kwo51 kwo51 is online now
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All depends on how I am dressed . Glock 43 in shorts or on the Harley . Kimber CDP in dress clothes on the belt with cover.
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  #130  
Old 06-11-2019, 04:41 AM
haldir haldir is offline
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Carried a Colt WC Commander .45 yesterday...
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  #131  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:51 AM
Boge Boge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunBugBit View Post
The FBI Miami-Dade shootout prompted a cartridge solution to a training and preparedness problem (that's my take when I read accounts of the incident). Same thing might have happened with .45 ACP or 10mm in play.

New recruits are going to be, or already are, a lot of snowflakes, so, maybe we need a fresh round of wars to harden the next generation or two.

Excellent points. Since the main complaint re the 9mm bullet that stopped approx. an inch or so from the decedent's heart was made the scapegoat then a .45 bullet would have even penetrated less most likely.

The bottom line then was that success has a thousand fathers and failure was an orphan. The agents were in over their collective heads and went "cowboy". They sent accountants to fight real bad guys. No one wanted to admit as such and we (the taxpayers) spent God knows how many millions of $$ looking the other way.
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  #132  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:48 PM
Bradd D Bradd D is offline
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Sorry if this takes things way off topic, but since it's being discussed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv8cByaVyNQ
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  #133  
Old 06-11-2019, 06:34 PM
Robin Hood Robin Hood is online now
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Reversed for me as well. Started with a P99, then HK P30, P226/9 and so on, but they didn’t give me the accuracy I was looking for when at the range. First time I shot my great uncle’s original M1A1 I found out what I was missing. Like a sword is to a samurai a 1911 is to me. It may be a bit heavy, but thats ok. It’s nice to feel strength behind power instead of plastic. Sold all the polymers soon after the switch and haven’t looked back.
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  #134  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:36 AM
Thumper88 Thumper88 is offline
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I carry my full size on occasion, but I mostly carry a Glock 23 now. It’s about convenience and weight. I have been known to throw a j frame in my pocket for quick trips. If you need t any gun is better than no gun. It’s all about what makes your comfortable and confident.
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  #135  
Old 07-23-2019, 08:34 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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I think many people are "going with the flow" and "following what is popular - and well advertised" so they can "feel like they are not behind the times". And I think that is not the best reason to change from the 1911.

The 9MM hype (just because the FBI has come around and adopted it again) is pretty much unjustified. Better bullet designs lift ALL rounds pretty equally - the .45 and 10MM, .40, etc., all benefit from better bullets. But the .36 calibers have never been good stoppers - until the velocity gets up over 13-1400 fps. The average CCW 9MM handgun does not have a 5" test barrel installed and most probably seldom make 1200 fps. A .38 Special +P is around 1100, folks. Most carry 9MMs are shorter barrels.

You are kidding yourself if you think "everything is different now" and 9MM, because it is again blessed by the Feds, is now magically better than it was in WWI. The Feds got interested in the 9MM so cop-chicks and lightweight accountants can qualify with it, and it (and plastic guns) are cheaper to feed. The need for more than eight or nine (or even six!) shots is a great deal less for a civilian than a cop or soldier who can expect to encounter multiple attackers as part of his job description. If I get through the eighteen of so shots I usually carry with my 1911 and am still vertical, I will feel I am doing well. And if I haven't solved my problem in that many shots, it has probably already solved me.

Call me old fashioned (and I am) but I have held and tried quite a number of the latest polymer framed pistols - and not ONE of them is equal to a reasonably good 1911 trigger, especially on reset. The FLATNESS of the 1911 is what makes it so concealable - anything double stack simply cannot match it.

To quote the original 1911 promoter in the modern era "When it is not Necessary to Change, it is Necessary NOT TO CHANGE". (paraphrased, perhaps, I don't have the quote in front of me.) Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC - deceased.

Or, to quote somebody you All know - Detective Harry Callahan - "That's very Stylish...."
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 07-23-2019 at 08:39 PM.
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  #136  
Old 07-23-2019, 08:54 PM
Ratbikerod Ratbikerod is offline
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Let me say, I love my 1911’s. I enjoy them and still carry one from time to time. If I had more time to put into them I would probably be more apt to carry them all the time.

However, I don’t.

And I think if I have learned anything over the years of shooting is that my 1911’s require a level of support and maintenance that others do not. I think this is a pretty well proven fact. Not that they are hard to take care of but they do require ... more.

So aside from their ease of carry due to being narrow and their natural shootability, I find that I favor my P220 for its absolute indestructible nature. It has always been the most reliable and solid platform I have every used in 45 ACP.

I now also have a SIG P320 in 45 ACP that, so far, has been every bit as good as the 220 and carries 10+1. And I am still one of those old guys who typically on trust 7 rounds in an 8 round 1911 mag because they all seem to feed that 8th round poorly.

Just my two cents.
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  #137  
Old 07-23-2019, 09:15 PM
mdell49 mdell49 is offline
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Other than who you choose to marry it is unlikely there is a more personal choice than what someone chooses to carry for SD. Since it is highly unlikely anyone here or elsewhere will be present if SHTF I say carry whatever paddles your canoe.
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  #138  
Old 07-24-2019, 12:16 AM
1911crazy 1911crazy is online now
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It took me decades to accept the 9mm parabellium/Luger round. And longer to deciede what pistol I wanted. I chose a cz85db which is a amberdexterious cz75. I like the double action first shot. For some dumb reason I can explain I don’t care for a 9mm in a 1911.
It’s weird I have s&w n frames in different calibers. But I love my cz pistols. Since I hung up my shoulder holsters with a Redhawk in 44 mag my new carry is a cz82 in 9 mm makarov.
I thought it would be a scaled back 9 mm Luger power wise but it has plenty of power.

I’m basically a magnum revolver guy.

Note, if your new to 1911’s for ccw carry, make sure you carry chambered, cocked, locked 100% of the time make sure it’s a number one rule for you. Do not switch to unchambered, or chambered half cocked. Carry it chambered cocked and locked.
Be safe do it right.
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Last edited by 1911crazy; 07-24-2019 at 12:22 AM.
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  #139  
Old 07-24-2019, 01:10 AM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Unlike most here, I've never carried a 1911, and I never will. I'm really only into buying high-end pistols and revolvers these days, but when it comes to my carry needs, boring polymer pistols from reputable manufacturers fit the bill just fine.
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  #140  
Old 07-24-2019, 01:11 AM
Austin_TX Austin_TX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Col. Colt View Post
Better bullet designs lift ALL rounds pretty equally - the .45 and 10MM, .40, etc., all benefit from better bullets.
Source, please? Because the actual available sources of data don't seem to support your claim. Instead, they tend to suggest that improved bullet technology provides diminishing returns for the larger service calibers.
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  #141  
Old 07-24-2019, 01:20 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Originally Posted by Austin_TX View Post
Source, please? Because the actual available sources of data don't seem to support your claim. Instead, they tend to suggest that improved bullet technology provides diminishing returns for the larger service calibers.
Not challenging you but where can I read up on this?
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  #142  
Old 07-24-2019, 04:04 AM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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Austin, there are too many variables to prove me (or you) right or wrong on which (larger or smaller) caliber bullets got the greatest amount of improvement. It's not "diminished returns" for the big bores, but cheaper and easier drives out better, in this case. And we can agree that the smaller calibers NEED every improvement they can get - the larger bullets have always performed better, historically. I would say that whatever caliber currently blessed by the FBI is always going to get a lot of attention and technology lavished on it - because then the smaller agencies mimick whatever the Feds do - and that's where the big Police Contract Money will be. How good the round actually performs is secondary to marketing results. Unfortunately.

The failure of early small bore smokeless pistol bullets is exactly why we have the .45ACP - observed reality from the 1890's into WWI and beyond proved a small bullet at mediocre velocity just won't do it. The 9MM was always about half as effective as the .45ACP in hardball form. They both can kill - but will the other guy last long enough to get you is always the question. More expansion is simply not the whole answer. (By the way - The US military adopted the 9MM Beretta so Italy would in turn adopt the F-16 and allow our nuclear missiles on their soil. The safety of the US GI was not a concern in a political equation.) We can somewhat make up for a less effective cartridge by shooting more and faster - but why should we have to? If you carry a 9MM, you are indeed likely to need hi-capacity.

No .36 caliber round can perform the same at the same lower velocity as the larger bullets. If I can make a 9mm expand to .60 I can get the .45 to .75 - given the same level of technology. The medium bores require speed to work - just like the 5.56MM rifle does. What made the .357 Magnum a Death Ray in Law Enforcement was light bullet loadings over 1400 fps - that produced neurogenic shock, shutting down the nervous system and dropping the perp, instantly. Low velocity small bullets, no matter what bullet, cannot do that.

Read about it in Marshall and Sanow's Third Edition of "Stopping Power". And unlike the FBI, their stats were compiled from actual (mostly police) shooting outcomes - not shooting blocks of gel and extrapolating performance from a medium that has nothing to do with the human torso and it's voids, piping, pump and wiring. Theories are great - but observed results are better. CC
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Last edited by Col. Colt; 07-24-2019 at 04:19 AM.
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  #143  
Old 07-24-2019, 08:17 AM
45caldan 45caldan is offline
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I never carried a 1911. I started shooting when I lived in IL and there was no CCW.
1911s then where range guns and my nightstand guns. They STILL are but living in FL for the last 17 years, I carry something smaller and lighter.
My usual IWB carry is a Shield 9. Pocket carry is a Kimber micro .380.
Shield gets HSTs and the Kimber its XTPs from precision one (which have demonstrated to be the most consistent JHP load for a .380).
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  #144  
Old 07-24-2019, 09:22 AM
Ratbikerod Ratbikerod is offline
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Of all the articles I have read on the subject of stopping power or variability of rounds this one stands out as one of the best (in my mind).

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

In summary it details out the extremely small variation between calibers - in fact, from a raw data standpont I think the 40 faired about the best across them all. Although it has fallen from favor.

Thus, what we carry really breaks down to what is most comfortable and what you shoot the best in just about every possible way.
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  #145  
Old 07-24-2019, 09:47 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Very good read^^^^^^^thanks.
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  #146  
Old 07-24-2019, 10:35 AM
Joespapa Joespapa is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratbikerod View Post
Of all the articles I have read on the subject of stopping power or variability of rounds this one stands out as one of the best (in my mind).

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

In summary it details out the extremely small variation between calibers - in fact, from a raw data standpont I think the 40 faired about the best across them all. Although it has fallen from favor.

Thus, what we carry really breaks down to what is most comfortable and what you shoot the best in just about every possible way.


Great article!


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  #147  
Old 07-24-2019, 10:50 AM
GunBugBit GunBugBit is offline
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I've been seriously considering an "all 1911 all the time" approach. I get great satisfaction out of Steel Challenge, USPSA and fun club practice matches with 1911s. I don't shoot any other handgun better. I don't enjoy any other handgun more, and we'll practice with what we enjoy, so...
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  #148  
Old 07-24-2019, 11:46 AM
LimaCharlie LimaCharlie is offline
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I am seventy-three with arthritis. I carry a 5" 1911 in either .45 ACP or 10mm from the time I get dressed until it goes on the nightstand when I go to bed. Plastic is for leftovers.
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  #149  
Old 07-24-2019, 12:50 PM
Ratbikerod Ratbikerod is offline
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Originally Posted by LimaCharlie View Post
I am seventy-three with arthritis. I carry a 5" 1911 in either .45 ACP or 10mm from the time I get dressed until it goes on the nightstand when I go to bed. Plastic is for leftovers.
You got me beat there LC, I cant compete

I could definitely get to a point were this would be the case. I probably trust in my ability to keep my 1911ís (and probably my P220) running longer than anything else if I had to.

Like I said in my earlier post, the P220 is just dead simple and rock solid. And in the Carry SAO configuration it is the same as my 1911ís. I even bought the P320 with a manual thumb safety so that no matter what I carry they are, essentially, the same MOA.
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  #150  
Old 07-24-2019, 03:28 PM
Col. Colt Col. Colt is offline
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The Buckeye Article has a couple of problems. Using his methodology, the .32 ACP has the most one shot stops - and he states he does not believe his own data. Anybody here have a problem with that? Going to run down and replace your 9mm or .45ACP with a .32 today?

His sample size - only 1800 shootings - helps illustrate the difficulty in doing these types of studies, and my hat is off to him for trying. But having only 88 examples for one caliber and nearly 500 for another would indicate how the data can be easily skewed in a small study.

It's only one opinion, based on very limited data points and, several areas of his logic can be easily argued. But it makes the small caliber people feel better, so it will be happily agreed with by them. And all of us will agree that having a gun - any gun - when you need it, greatly increases your chance of survival over not having one.

And he does bring up an interesting point - that cannot be accounted for in this type of study - the number of people who instantly give up when shot - which is due to their psychology, not what they were shot with - and skews the data. That's why the Strasborg study (sp?) with instrumented, live Alpine goats is valuable - the goats were not psychologically active while they were being shot - ruling out determination or emotion.

I give him full credit for a great effort - but all studies live and die on their assumptions and the amount of data used to reach the conclusion. Any individual is unlikely to have the time or resources to reach the definitive conclusion in such a complex subject - ever. The fact that Marshall and Sanow were cops, with better access to much more information over a much longer time leads me to stay with their conclusions. Big bullets work - and medium bores work if they are fast enough. CC
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