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  #26  
Old 07-07-2018, 10:09 PM
Rumblur Rumblur is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Thanks! I should've know the Man would've done it. I just didn't dig back far enough. He's the only guy I watch on youtube, the rest are a waste of time.
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  #27  
Old 07-09-2018, 01:04 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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While I always enjoy his presentations, in this case he should have compared +p to +p rather than regular 380 to 38 spl +p or non +p to non +p if he had trouble finding +p 380 ammunition. The later may have been the case, since this was filmed a couple of years ago.
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  #28  
Old 07-09-2018, 05:06 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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"pocket gun" and concealed carry......

The .380 cartridge is quite popular for a small pocket carry gun. However, for my self defense, I don't carry a handgun in my "pocket." I carry my EDC gun in an OWB holster behind my right hip bone, and at least one or two spare mags on the opposite hip behind the hip bone. My EDC gun is primarily a 1911, all steel, .38 super Commander, carried cocked and locked with 10+1 rounds in the gun of 125gr. Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dots .38 super custom ammo. My SD loads leave the muzzle on an average of 1,350 fps. I built my EDC gun with a Bar Sto bull barrel, and when tested from a sand bag rest at 25 yards, will shoot 1.5" or slightly less 5-shot groups when using new or once fired brass. This same SD ammo will average 5 shots from a rest in the 3"-4" range at 50 yards, which is more than adequate for a self defense handgun.


If a person plans to carry a .380 as a primary self defense weapon, I would rethink this caliber choice, and move up to a 9mm or larger cartridge. I also do not recommend carrying a primary self defense weapon in a pocket.....since you may have different clothes with different pocket sizes that may impede the ability to get the get into action as fast as possible if ever needed.....


Often times people justify using a .380 as, "it's better than not carrying a gun at all....!" They may feel some psychological comfort in having a gun, but the better choice is to have a gun and caliber choice that has the best chance to stop a threat sooner than later...… Otherwise, they may not even survive a self defense gunfight....

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 07-09-2018 at 05:10 AM.
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  #29  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:51 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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I’m still not seeing why this is so hard to understand.
Similar velocity, well OK, but the .38 is handling a projectile that is 65 grains heavier. These two are non comparable. Once again, that’s a dumbed down .38. You can jack the crap out of them and the .380 appears feeble at best!
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  #30  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:12 PM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
The .380 cartridge is quite popular for a small pocket carry gun. However, for my self defense, I don't carry a handgun in my "pocket." I carry my EDC gun in an OWB holster behind my right hip bone, and at least one or two spare mags on the opposite hip behind the hip bone. My EDC gun is primarily a 1911, all steel, .38 super Commander, carried cocked and locked with 10+1 rounds in the gun of 125gr. Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dots .38 super custom ammo. My SD loads leave the muzzle on an average of 1,350 fps. I built my EDC gun with a Bar Sto bull barrel, and when tested from a sand bag rest at 25 yards, will shoot 1.5" or slightly less 5-shot groups when using new or once fired brass. This same SD ammo will average 5 shots from a rest in the 3"-4" range at 50 yards, which is more than adequate for a self defense handgun.


If a person plans to carry a .380 as a primary self defense weapon, I would rethink this caliber choice, and move up to a 9mm or larger cartridge. I also do not recommend carrying a primary self defense weapon in a pocket.....since you may have different clothes with different pocket sizes that may impede the ability to get the get into action as fast as possible if ever needed.....


Often times people justify using a .380 as, "it's better than not carrying a gun at all....!" They may feel some psychological comfort in having a gun, but the better choice is to have a gun and caliber choice that has the best chance to stop a threat sooner than later...… Otherwise, they may not even survive a self defense gunfight....
Not going off to war, my P238 fits my back pocket and my attitude.

You carry to the big guns to get groceries or go to church, I will keep my P 238. If I am going to the bus station in Buffalo, I thake my LW Officers ACP with complete confidence.

David

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  #31  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:57 PM
Plaidad Plaidad is offline
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Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
I am still trying to wrap my head around this one.... numbers wise, they are very close power / damage potential wise. So if that's the case - why does my steel 38spl kick twice as hard as my LCP2 380? Surely the slide can't be absorbing THAT much of the recoil, can it?
I think you may be confusing muzzle snap with recoil. The revolver will lift the muzzle more because the bore axis is higher.
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:13 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Carring a .380 in the back pocket....

Quote:
Not going off to war, my P238 fits my back pocket and my attitude.
If I could predict when and where I needed a gun for self defense around my local area, I would use my 12 gauge tactical shotgun with ten rounds of 00 buck or my AR-15. Since a random act of violence can occur anytime and place.....I carry a gun that has better ballistics and terminal energy than the lowly .380 with a short barrel.....and hope I never have to use it.....

My attitude is that I prefer to "prepare for the worst case scenario" and not become complacent about using a small and low powered pocket type firearm to save my life or the lives of my loved ones if needed....

Yes, my all steel .38 super Commander is bigger and heavier, however, the extra weight helps to mitigate recoil and muzzle flip with a powerful load, and the good sights improves the potential accuracy to make a self defense shot out to 75 yards or more, which is extremely difficult and unrealistic with a .380 pocket carry gun..... Most self defense shootings occur at close range, but that doesn't always apply......every self defense situation may be unique. A psychologically disturbed maniac with a semi-auto rifle at a shopping mall may not allow a close shot with a hand gun..... Better to have a handgun with the accuracy potential to "reach out and touch someone!!" I will continue to conceal carry my 1911 .38 super Commander, since it fits my attitude and my accuracy requirements......

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 07-10-2018 at 05:23 AM.
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  #33  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:47 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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.38 super and 9X23

I make "hot" .38 super loads, but use W/N ramped fully supported barrels where the chamber encloses the brass case up to the extractor groove. I like and use Winchester .38 super +P labeled brass for making very high pressure .38 super loads, and I prefer to use CCI small rifle primers.

Winchester improved the thickness of the .38 super case at the web and the bottom of the case walls in the early/mid 1990's. The reason for the improved case design, was the .38 super case was the same dimensions of the .38 auto, and they didn't want a case blow out by someone inadvertently shooing a .38 super round in an older .38 auto gun...… this also was good news for those that shot USPSA when the power factor was higher. The USPSA power factor for a Major caliber is now 165, and there are many Open div. shooters using a 9mm Major round.


Even though the 9X23 can be an improvement in velocity over the .38 super, I like the .38 super since I have a good load that is easier to control and allows me to shoot faster follow up shots. Plus, it is a lot easier to use .38 super brass and is readily available. I make my own self defense loads, and my SD .38 supers leave the muzzle at roughly 1,350 fps with a 124 gr. Hornady XTP or 125 gr. Speer Gold dot bullet. I use a heavier 26lb. mainspring and a 14# recoil spring, and the gun is very reliable and the sights track very well with this combination of springs with my powerful SD load. The accuracy produces 1.5" five shot groups at 25 yards from a sand bag rest......
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  #34  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:04 AM
david_root2000 david_root2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
If I could predict when and where I needed a gun for self defense around my local area, I would use my 12 gauge tactical shotgun with ten rounds of 00 buck or my AR-15. Snip
I would avoid.

************************************************** ***********

I carried a Chiefs Special (5 shot 1 7/8") 38 for a lot of years. Then I replaced that with an airweight. Same gun, aluminum frame but put CT laser grips on it.

I now have a Sig P238 (380) with night sights. Its easier to carry than the revolver and I shoot it as well or better due to the 1911 style.

I am comfortable with either one. The revolver has a little more horse power. Sig fits in my RR pocket, so when someone says "Give me your wallet" I will smile and reach for my back pocket.

38 can shoot a heavier bullet at the same velocity as the 380. Therefore more horse power.

David

Last edited by david_root2000; 07-10-2018 at 08:06 AM.
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  #35  
Old 07-13-2018, 08:27 PM
2gunpete 2gunpete is offline
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The difference is penetration. A heavier bullet will penetrate further than a lighter bullet of the same caliber, which can make the difference in stopping a BG, or not.

The Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +p 38sp is a great round for snubbies, expansion and penetration.
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  #36  
Old 07-13-2018, 11:30 PM
kinnison kinnison is offline
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All I can say is "what"
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  #37  
Old 07-14-2018, 01:24 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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I think it is interesting that when 38 spl is compared to other calibers like 45 acp, it is considered anemic by comparison and shot placement is considered critical in 38 spl. With good shot placement, 380 is the same bullet diameter and penetrates enough to hit vital organs. Neither really expands reliably in short barrels.

So while I personally much prefer the 38 spl for the same reason others on this thread do - heavier bullet, a bit more shocking power and MAYBE some additional penetration, but not enough to really matter much, I think in a real live scenario there isn't enough difference between the two to be definitive. Good shot placement will take someone down with either, bad shot placement won't do so much with either round. I carry whichever of the two calibers fits my attire better if I'm going small.
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  #38  
Old 07-14-2018, 10:54 PM
PsychoSword PsychoSword is offline
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The normal rounds are SORTA comparable, with .38spl being around the same FPE as .380 depending on barrel length, usually with the .38spl using a much heavier bullet. But in the real world there is no comparison. .380 brass can push bullets near to weak 9mm levels with small bullets, but .38spl casings can push energy levels to mid-range .357 magnum levels with lighter bullets. It's not a huge gap, but it is if you consider the 9mm vs. .357 Magnum argument and why the 357SIG was developed.

Last edited by PsychoSword; 07-14-2018 at 11:00 PM.
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  #39  
Old 07-16-2018, 11:28 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
While I always enjoy his presentations, in this case he should have compared +p to +p rather than regular 380 to 38 spl +p or non +p to non +p if he had trouble finding +p 380 ammunition. The later may have been the case, since this was filmed a couple of years ago.
There is no SAAMI spec for +P in a .380ACP. Some companies like Buffalo Bore advertise such ammo, but they're simply loaded to the maximum pressure levels. At the moment only .38 Special, 9mm, .38 Super and .45ACP have actual +P standards from SAAMI.
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  #40  
Old 07-16-2018, 02:40 PM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Then he should have just used standard pressure 38 spl loads. The idea is, you are comparing calibers, not brands of ammunition. So hotter loads from either caliber should not influence the results - only point I was making. He could easily have compared standard load to standard load.
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  #41  
Old 07-17-2018, 04:37 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Using a small .380 pocket pistol for self defense....

Yes, carrying a small .380 pocket pistol is light and comfortable...… However, noted firearms trainer Clint Smith, President of Thunder Ranch firearms training academy has stated: "Carrying a firearm (for SD) should be comforting, and not necessarily comfortable!" I agree with his philosophy......

Yes, if I knew there was a high potential of being in a gun fight, I would try to avoid it...…..but the fact is, the majority of handguns are not all that great at stopping a bad gun attacking you or shooting at you. I watched a video of a man that was attacked and shot his .38 special revolver to empty over the course of several minutes, while the bad guy chased the good guy around the room......one of the shots to the bad guy caused him to say...."that was a good one," yet the BG kept chasing the man. I believe this took place in New Orleans. I also believe the BG finally stopped when the loss of blood and loss of blood pressure finally caused him to succumb to his wounds...…

I do not want to be "chased" by anyone trying to kill or hurt me or my loved ones......so I carry a hot loaded .38 super that performs similar to a low end .357 mag round, which offers superior ballistics to any .380 or .38 special round from a short barrel......

I am not aware of any LE agencies, the FBI, or the military that issue a pistol in the .380 caliber.....just not enough power to do the job of stopping an attacker "sooner than later."

The only comment I can make is, "I hope anyone that carries a .380acp for self defense and ends up using it, lives to tell the story!"

Last edited by Rwehavinfunyet; 07-17-2018 at 04:44 AM.
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  #42  
Old 07-17-2018, 08:34 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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This is another example of shot placement emphasis.
I’m assuming that this was a wheel gun with six shots.
Unless this bad guy was on PCP or something, six well placed shots from a 38 spl will most surely stop him in his tracks. The 380 would probably have difficulty penetrating clothing and passing through the sternum or doing damage if contacting the ribs. Now, if you blasted him in the face multiple times with the 380, that would probably work!
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  #43  
Old 07-17-2018, 11:45 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
Yes, carrying a small .380 pocket pistol is light and comfortable...… However, noted firearms trainer Clint Smith, President of Thunder Ranch firearms training academy has stated: "Carrying a firearm (for SD) should be comforting, and not necessarily comfortable!" I agree with his philosophy......

Yes, if I knew there was a high potential of being in a gun fight, I would try to avoid it...…..but the fact is, the majority of handguns are not all that great at stopping a bad gun attacking you or shooting at you. I watched a video of a man that was attacked and shot his .38 special revolver to empty over the course of several minutes, while the bad guy chased the good guy around the room......one of the shots to the bad guy caused him to say...."that was a good one," yet the BG kept chasing the man. I believe this took place in New Orleans. I also believe the BG finally stopped when the loss of blood and loss of blood pressure finally caused him to succumb to his wounds...…

I do not want to be "chased" by anyone trying to kill or hurt me or my loved ones......so I carry a hot loaded .38 super that performs similar to a low end .357 mag round, which offers superior ballistics to any .380 or .38 special round from a short barrel......

I am not aware of any LE agencies, the FBI, or the military that issue a pistol in the .380 caliber.....just not enough power to do the job of stopping an attacker "sooner than later."

The only comment I can make is, "I hope anyone that carries a .380acp for self defense and ends up using it, lives to tell the story!"
#openclasscarrygun, I'm in the same camp as you are but my setup (due to luck) is very comfortable.
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  #44  
Old 07-17-2018, 03:16 PM
PolymerMan PolymerMan is online now
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It's hard to compare the .38 spl to .380 ACP because it's like apples to oranges comparison.

The thing about .380 ACP that gives it weak performance is the fact that it is often used in very short barrel guns, generally 2.5 inch barrels. Almost all of my early mouse guns were .380's with a 2.5 to 2.7 inch barrels. The typical muzzle energy for a wimpy 380 load out of a 2.5 inch barrel is somewhere around 120 ft-lbs to 150 ft-lbs.

Then when you compare performance to a .38 spl, you are comparing revolvers to semi-auto barrels. The issue here is that they measure the barrel length of a semi-auto barrel from the breech face. So a 2.5 inch barrel is measured from the primer to the muzzle.

In a revolver, they measure barrel length from the forcing cone to the muzzle. The length of the cylinder from the breech face to the face of the cylinder is ignored and that is almost a full inch.

So when you compare a 2 inch snubby to a 380 mouse pistol, you really have the semi-auto equivalent barrel length of 3 inches with the revolver.

But then you have other oddities. The .38 spl is a relatively low pressure cartridge (17,000 PSI), and the .380 ACP is relatively high pressure (21,000 PSI)... higher than .38 spl +P which is rated at 20,000 PSI.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

So the bottom line is that there are 2 maybe 3 mitigating factors when you compare the two.
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  #45  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:14 AM
BoulderTroll BoulderTroll is offline
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Originally Posted by Rwehavinfunyet View Post
I am not aware of any LE agencies, the FBI, or the military that issue a pistol in the .380 caliber.....
Just to play devil's advocate, if I remember right, Hong Kong PD used to issue the SIG P230. I recall a large number of buy-back guns coming back from overseas many years ago.

I have to agree with David on this one. A nice pistol at home will do nothing for you, but a 380 in your pocket will help. It's not my choice, I usually carry a 9mm when off duty, but I certainly have carried a 380 instead from time to time. Compared to a knife, or no gun at all, a 380 is a great option. We've all heard that quote over and over about comforting vs comfortable, but the simple truth is that very few people always carry a nice big pistol or any pistol at all. There are for sure times when people rationalize leaving it at home for a brief period of time. If a 380 removes the need for rationalization, it's a sound decision.
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  #46  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Rumblur View Post
Cartridge size wise, a 38spl is really big compared to the 380acp. How is it, the ballistics are almost the same?



The usual comparison is between the .38 Spl and 9x19. A .380 is less powerful than either one.
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  #47  
Old 07-27-2018, 06:30 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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Thank you!
Sheesh..............
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  #48  
Old 07-28-2018, 10:38 PM
quasimodo quasimodo is offline
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The way I view this is comparing it to cars as an example.

a 1970's pacer is wide. for the sake of argument lets say the 1976 pacer is as wide as a 1976 Cadillac. the pacer is as wide as the Cadillac, but shorter, lighter and less oomph.

if you had to drive a hole through a brick wall to save your life, which would you use?
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  #49  
Old 07-29-2018, 09:53 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
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The way I view this is comparing it to cars as an example.

a 1970's pacer is wide. for the sake of argument lets say the 1976 pacer is as wide as a 1976 Cadillac. the pacer is as wide as the Cadillac, but shorter, lighter and less oomph.

if you had to drive a hole through a brick wall to save your life, which would you use?
good example, but the 380 is more like a Yugo!
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  #50  
Old 07-29-2018, 03:29 PM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PolymerMan View Post
It's hard to compare the .38 spl to .380 ACP because it's like apples to oranges comparison.

The thing about .380 ACP that gives it weak performance is the fact that it is often used in very short barrel guns, generally 2.5 inch barrels. Almost all of my early mouse guns were .380's with a 2.5 to 2.7 inch barrels. The typical muzzle energy for a wimpy 380 load out of a 2.5 inch barrel is somewhere around 120 ft-lbs to 150 ft-lbs.

Then when you compare performance to a .38 spl, you are comparing revolvers to semi-auto barrels. The issue here is that they measure the barrel length of a semi-auto barrel from the breech face. So a 2.5 inch barrel is measured from the primer to the muzzle.

In a revolver, they measure barrel length from the forcing cone to the muzzle. The length of the cylinder from the breech face to the face of the cylinder is ignored and that is almost a full inch.

So when you compare a 2 inch snubby to a 380 mouse pistol, you really have the semi-auto equivalent barrel length of 3 inches with the revolver.

But then you have other oddities. The .38 spl is a relatively low pressure cartridge (17,000 PSI), and the .380 ACP is relatively high pressure (21,000 PSI)... higher than .38 spl +P which is rated at 20,000 PSI.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

So the bottom line is that there are 2 maybe 3 mitigating factors when you compare the two.
Very good points. Can't believe that I forgot to figure in cylinder length for the snubby. But at least it makes the 380 with the 3" or 3" + bbl a pretty even comparison with a 2" bbl revolver with that taken into consideration.
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