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  #51  
Old 05-10-2018, 08:04 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Two shots in the air with a double barreled shotgun. One might have to fire 4 or 5 shots in the air with a pump shotgun to make sure your firearm is completely empty as per Joe's instruction. Not Joe's finest hour in the advice department.
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  #52  
Old 05-10-2018, 08:38 AM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Throw in a couple frags. Then 'round the corner.
Much like Steven Seagal's, MY 1911 - when empty - turns INTO a hand grenade!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtE0ToLeQ70 3:32 mark

Probably still NSFW... maybe... 30 years later. If you know the movie, you'll know this scene is edited for this video. Nonetheless, you still get to see "the MYSTERY grenade" in action (as in, WHERE in the heck did that thing COME from?!?! ).
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  #53  
Old 05-10-2018, 08:40 AM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSOtto View Post
I'm waiting for Joe Biden to weigh in on this thread.......

Just fire 2 shots in the air..... with a shotgun.....right?????

He DID. YOU... didn't watch the video!
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  #54  
Old 05-10-2018, 10:52 AM
evets5321 evets5321 is offline
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Close proximity, a shotgun is hard to beat, usually doesn't require a followup shot. Handgun for intermediate distance (so I can get to my truck), AR for medium distance (out to 400 yards and I prefer my enemies at over 500 yards in my rear view mirror getting smaller...
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  #55  
Old 05-10-2018, 11:10 AM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
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My apartment is secure with at least 3 shotguns ready to hand.
I am quite proficient with my scatter guns after 40+ years of skeet and trap shooting. I'm even pretty good firing from the hip at doubles on stations 3,4 and 5.
I don't use pistol grips, a full stock is essential to control of the gun and for proper aim.
I prefer #2 buck to 00. I actually prefer pump guns to semis although my Beretta 12 gauge skeet gun had well over 10K rounds through it with never a malfunction that couldn't be explained by my early attempts at reloading.
As to effective, even a 410 with #9 shot will typically drop a full grown man with a hit anywhere on the torso. It probably won't kill him but I have seen a guy shot with a 410 in a skeet load. Turned a chunk of his body, in this case, the back into a hamburger sized mass of, well, hamburger. Remember, it is only 1/2 Oz of shot so about the same as a 230g 45 but it is traveling at 12-1300 FPS out the muzzle so energy is quite a bit more.
Technique is all important when operating a pump shotgun. Again, I have lots of time behind one and don't make simple mistakes like short stroking and failing to release the trigger between rounds. In fact, one of my guns is built to allow that and will fire as soon as the bolt returns to battery. It is a Winchester 1897 that has been customized with an 18.5" bbl, a 5 shot magazine and all you have to do to empty the magazine is keep forward pressure on the fore end and brace yourself. The gun will do the rest.
Actually, bracing yourself against recoil is a horrible idea, you need to absorb the recoil and let the gun recoil into your shoulder and return to its natural point of aim. If the gun really does fit you recoil is not an issue and it won't hurt or bang you on the cheek bone but that is a subject worthy of an entire book and one 3 guns shooters would be well served to read.
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  #56  
Old 05-10-2018, 12:06 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Striker2237 is in Ohio, where in a thread in the General section a kid was arrested for posting Airsoft pics & finding a mag at school. Guys here are claiming "libtards" on that. In a Red State! So keep in mind there is something to consider:

Say Striker kills someone to protect himself & his family. Well done, he & fam is alive & well as he has handled Threat #1, & that is the most important thing here.

Now comes Threat #2. First we must recognize that claiming "I feared for my life" is NOT NOT NOT a Free Pass or Presidential Pardon. It's just one small & debatable point in a big story.

It's homicide. It's a BIG deal. So in determining whether it's justifiable homicide or not, in criminal & civil court (varies by state) every single factor will be considered, weighed and perhaps fought over in court and decided by jurors. Facts are part of this & opinions are part of this. If you think it's just facts, you have little courtroom experience.

Because of this, I prefer to not be in the position of having used an AR Pistol in each hand with 30 round mags + extras taped upside-down, a four handgun belt, and a K-Bar clenched in my teeth.

To kill someone who may turn out, after the fact, to have been less than a 100% legit threat.

Yes, save yourself first. That's understood. But there are other things to consider too, when you are being judged by housewives & furniture salesmen.
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  #57  
Old 05-10-2018, 09:27 PM
mangeek mangeek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
Nice rotts. I used to raise them for over 20 years.

However, advantage of firearm over dog - you can't always control what a dog does. I had my Rottweillers trained to attack on command. But it wasn't for the attack element - they loved to do it as they thought of it as a game. It was to control them letting go of something I didn't want them to tear up. Command "hit" and they would attack - "out" and they would let go of whatever they were biting and return to me. It saved a cat's life once. Most people do not have that kind of control over their dogs. Many have almost no control over their dogs when they are in aggressive mode. I do love the dogs, but many homeowners insurance policies won't cover you with a Rottweiler or a Pit Bull. With firearms, no such limitation.

Thanks. Our Rotties have all been through training and respond to commands well. Once, I was working in the back yard and forgot one rottie was out there with me. I opened the fence gate to go to the front, then I saw my dog walk past me into the front yard. I almost had a panic attack! lol. She saw a bird on the front lawn and started towards it slowly. My dog was some thirty feet away by this point. I started to run after her, but after two steps, I remembered what one of the trainers had said. Don't chase. They may run from yah. I stopped as I remembered, held out my flat palm, and said a key word she had been trained to respond to. She stopped her gaze on the bird, looked at me and ran to me and kissed my out reached palm with her wet nose just as she was trained to do. I grabbed her collar and walked her back into the back yard. Geeze! Thank you trainer! The rottie did exactly as trained.

Back on topic, I can see a shorter shotgun being very viable for home defense for some. The wife and I rely on 45acp 1911's though for the most part in the home (though we do have other options). Not counting the dogs. Though for my EDC, its a 9mm most of the time now, though it is also a single stacked 1911. Cocked and locked. I reckon you could run into that guy on PCP where a shot gun blast may stop him when a few rounds from a pistol might not, but seems to me the pistol is just going to be more manageable and quicker to target most of the time than a long gun inside a home. Should do the job most of the time. If it doesn't, so be it.
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  #58  
Old 05-11-2018, 12:00 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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I could not get any flash bangs around where I live.

So I keep a bunch of party poppers daisy chained together around the perimeter of the bed room. Then they have to get past the pit Yorkie. From there we escalate to theater nukes. Having all of the bears in the area think that they live here does have a certain advantage as well.
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  #59  
Old 05-11-2018, 07:21 AM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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Interesting thread. Lots of passion and emotions.

I offer this for consideration. Each situation is different and having options for defense is a good thing.

I supervise our SWAT team and I still go in on the stack sometimes because I like too, and I have rock star supervisors working for me, so I do not have to always be "in charge". Having the boss occasionally in taking the same risk as the troops puts emotional deposits in the employees bank but that is an entirely different topic.

When good people like you need me, I will come to search your house. I sometimes bring my Bennelli semi auto shotgun and sometimes I bring my full auto M-4. There are people in the stack that have only handguns but their primary job is anticipated to be something other than gun fighting. If the stack has to travel a hundred yards up the driveway to do an entry I would bring an M-4. If the entry is on a trailer house in a trailer park then I probably would bring my shotgun. At 15 yards and less a dose of OO Buck cannot be ignored.

I have been present when both shotguns and M-4's were discharged at close quarters. They are both extremely effective!

I have given up arguing the effectiveness of one pistol caliber over another. I carry a pistol because it is portable and gives me a chance to defend myself and others when I did not anticipate needing a firearm. Given the knowledge that I may enter a situation that will require a firearm, I bring a long gun!!

I have trained for decades on how to use a long gun in different situations and environments. I encourage all of you to do the same. Have several firearm options available so you can respond to different situations.

And train!!! Spend some of your hard earned money and time. Train either on your own, or buy a class from a seasoned trainer that will expand your skill sets. Be better each time you leave the training session than when you came.
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  #60  
Old 05-11-2018, 08:35 AM
John Joseph John Joseph is offline
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If you require a short barrel shotgun for room to room, consider a sxs or o/u instead of a pump. What you loose in capacity you gain on overall shortness----about a 5" advantage----due to the action.
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  #61  
Old 05-11-2018, 09:02 AM
NPV NPV is offline
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Read these links from another site: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/F...ards/1-370975/

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l-FliteControl

Just goes to show with the right load the shotgun is much more effective at distance than one might think based off of internet BS.

Last edited by NPV; 05-11-2018 at 09:07 AM. Reason: Picture not working
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  #62  
Old 05-11-2018, 09:04 AM
steviesterno steviesterno is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappi View Post


I'm curious, what HD scenario do you envision needing to bugout from your home?

..L.T.A.
earthquake, floor, fire, riot, mobs, kidnappers, neighbors screaming, wife screaming in the yard, snake, coyote, bunch of burglars, etc.

I personally want something that works well at bad breath distance and is grab-and-go for anything else that may come up. I have a light, red dot, back up ammo, etc all on board. I can hit you at 3 feet, at a run at 30 feet, in a car at 30 yards, or at least in the general area at 300 yards. I don't want to stand in front of a safe and go "hmm, what does this threat require?". I want to grab one damn thing that gets stuff done, that I have thousands and thousands or rounds through, and in a platform that I would be content with in a while knowing I may not make it back to my house ever again.
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  #63  
Old 05-11-2018, 12:58 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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I switched from an AR pistol (can't have an SBR in Illinois) to a KSG shotgun (15 round capacity) because the #1 buck in the shotgun will not overpenetrate like a .223 will, generally. Those that claim this to not be true should post a link to the tests that were done that prove this out instead of just stating it as if it's a given fact.

When I used the AR pistol, I used varmint rounds that would expand quickly whether hitting a person or a wall. But the quality of human stopping power with those rounds were in question because they might not penetrate in tissue beyond 6 inches. So I went with the shotgun, where the stopping power is pretty much without dispute.

Yes, the KSG is much louder indoors. But they are both loud enough where electronic ear protection is a must when investigating something that went bump in the night. So for me, step one is to grab the gun and step two is to grab the muffs that are right next to the bed.
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  #64  
Old 05-11-2018, 03:05 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Let's settle this by watching the 12 Ga vs .223 drywall test on YouTube by Guns Survival News.

They made 8 phonebook-sized "walls" to shoot at. They were drywall boxes made with a front & rear drywall panel, separated by a 2x4 perimeter frame. The frame was not in the line of fire.



They lined up all 8 "walls", like dominoes, on a table a few inches apart from each other.

They shot them with a .223 11.5 inch AR SBR, a 9mm handgun & a long-barreled shotgun with 00 Buck. Note the LONG barrel of the shotgun & SHORT barrel of the AR.

All 3 guns penetrated 14 to 15 layers of drywall. That's several cheap residential apartments. So they are about equal in over penetration. And that's with a longass honkin' goose gun & a wee short SBR!

Note also that the shottie knocked over all the panels & the other guns did not.

Also note that a similar test also on YouTube used cinderblocks. In that one all 3 guns penetrated only the first "wall" of the cinderblock.

But the shotgun's block exploded & flew off the table.

So.. Penetration about equal be tween AR, 9mm & 00Buck.
00 Buck has significantly more impact.

And since 00 Buck patterns in one hole at 15 feet (room width minus people & barrel length) I think a 12 Ga, short barrel w/ smaller buckshot, maybe #4, wins the day on power Vs low penetration.

Yes, there's a lot of variables here, but this is a mostly accurate overview.
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  #65  
Old 05-11-2018, 06:26 PM
kjeakman kjeakman is offline
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Age old debate

This will never be settled because there is no one and only best choice. It depends on so many variables, your home location, your neighbors location(s), your own skill set, your budget, local laws, etc. etc.
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  #66  
Old 05-11-2018, 07:25 PM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Let's settle this by watching the 12 Ga vs .223 drywall test on YouTube by Guns Survival News.

They made 8 phonebook-sized "walls" to shoot at. They were drywall boxes made with a front & rear drywall panel, separated by a 2x4 perimeter frame. The frame was not in the line of fire.



They lined up all 8 "walls", like dominoes, on a table a few inches apart from each other.

They shot them with a .223 11.5 inch AR SBR, a 9mm handgun & a long-barreled shotgun with 00 Buck. Note the LONG barrel of the shotgun & SHORT barrel of the AR.

All 3 guns penetrated 14 to 15 layers of drywall. That's several cheap residential apartments. So they are about equal in over penetration. And that's with a longass honkin' goose gun & a wee short SBR!

Note also that the shottie knocked over all the panels & the other guns did not.

Also note that a similar test also on YouTube used cinderblocks. In that one all 3 guns penetrated only the first "wall" of the cinderblock.

But the shotgun's block exploded & flew off the table.

So.. Penetration about equal be tween AR, 9mm & 00Buck.
00 Buck has significantly more impact.

And since 00 Buck patterns in one hole at 15 feet (room width minus people & barrel length) I think a 12 Ga, short barrel w/ smaller buckshot, maybe #4, wins the day on power Vs low penetration.

Yes, there's a lot of variables here, but this is a mostly accurate overview.
I'm sorry, but this isn't exactly true. The tests were done with only 2 mediums and when all 3 penetrate through something, it doesn't tell you that they are all equal in penetration.....just that the media wasn't thick enough to make that determination. Try that same test on a car body. The type of media has a vast influence on the degree of penetration. I understand what you were trying to point out and the fact that drywall is the stuff of home and apartment construction is not lost on me. But walls also contain 2 x 4s, metal and plastic pipe, steel conduit, aluminum and copper wire, and sometimes stashes of drugs and money.

As has been pointed out, everyone has to decide what level of penetration is appropriate for where they are living to make the best decision, and that is different for everyone.
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  #67  
Old 05-11-2018, 08:19 PM
AndyF AndyF is offline
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A 20" Mossberg 500 with an AR 15 style adjustable stock sleeps by my bed.
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  #68  
Old 05-11-2018, 09:42 PM
mangeek mangeek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM813 View Post
Interesting thread. Lots of passion and emotions.

I offer this for consideration. Each situation is different and having options for defense is a good thing.

I supervise our SWAT team and I still go in on the stack sometimes because I like too, and I have rock star supervisors working for me, so I do not have to always be "in charge". Having the boss occasionally in taking the same risk as the troops puts emotional deposits in the employees bank but that is an entirely different topic.

When good people like you need me, I will come to search your house. I sometimes bring my Bennelli semi auto shotgun and sometimes I bring my full auto M-4. There are people in the stack that have only handguns but their primary job is anticipated to be something other than gun fighting. If the stack has to travel a hundred yards up the driveway to do an entry I would bring an M-4. If the entry is on a trailer house in a trailer park then I probably would bring my shotgun. At 15 yards and less a dose of OO Buck cannot be ignored.

I have been present when both shotguns and M-4's were discharged at close quarters. They are both extremely effective!

I have given up arguing the effectiveness of one pistol caliber over another. I carry a pistol because it is portable and gives me a chance to defend myself and others when I did not anticipate needing a firearm. Given the knowledge that I may enter a situation that will require a firearm, I bring a long gun!!

I have trained for decades on how to use a long gun in different situations and environments. I encourage all of you to do the same. Have several firearm options available so you can respond to different situations.

And train!!! Spend some of your hard earned money and time. Train either on your own, or buy a class from a seasoned trainer that will expand your skill sets. Be better each time you leave the training session than when you came.
Nice post DRM813. Nice to hear the thoughts of a person in your line of work. I had posted something earlier in the thread regarding wanting to hear from people of certain professions. Was hoping some professionals in those fields or similar would give their insights/opinions on the matter.

As I had stated, we rely on our pistols and dogs, but do have other more powerful gun options including an M4 in the house. The training points you made, are well taken.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic.
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  #69  
Old 05-11-2018, 10:54 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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Currently residing in the bedroom loaded.

Are a Baby Browning, three .45 acp pistols with one being suppressed, A Noveske Rogue hunter all set to rock, A Winchester new production model 1892 in .45 Colt, A Colt Delta Elite in 10mm, A S&W AR-10, and a Winchester model 70 bolt gun in .300 H&H magnum. But no shotgun.
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  #70  
Old 05-11-2018, 10:56 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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toofew1911's--------- Not true on your first claim. NONE of the guns went through & through ALL of the panels. All were stopped by the medium. So YES, the test did accurately demonstrate similar levels of penetration.

And pipes, nails, 2x4's etc etc that exist in some parts of some walls cannot be considered in a penetration test. Unless you were able to consistently duplicate hits on pipes & wires, which is not realistically feasible.

A wall penetration test has to be just that. And be conducted on a consistent target material, which is exactly what this was.

Bottom line, they were essentially equal in a pretty good test The biggest flaw was that with only a 11.5 inch barrel the AR was really dang short for a rifle & the shotgun was far longer than most used in a HD role.

I think the AR should have been the more common 16.5" or better & the shotgun 18-20". But hey, I guess that's what these guys had. Now if those guns were in their common specs the AR would have likely penetrated more than the shotgun did.

Btw, The energy of a 12 Gauge, as judged only by felt recoil & impact force on targets, is substantially greater than the 5.56 or the 9mm.

You can put an AR stock against your chin (as seen in the old USMC pic) and fire comfortably. Same with a 9mm carbine.

Try that with a 12 Gauge. Or better yet, DON'T! :0
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  #71  
Old 05-11-2018, 11:07 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
They lined up all 8 "walls", like dominoes, on a table a few inches apart from each other.
This is the fundemental flaw in the this testing protocol. Hitting media can, and does, change the trajectory of projectiles, particularly round buckshot- which is amplified over distance. Space also affects energy and momentum....

I'm assuming that most don't live in homes with walls just inches apart...
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  #72  
Old 05-11-2018, 11:53 PM
557 557 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post

I'm assuming that most don't live in homes with walls just inches apart...
Yea, people of that stature arenít going to be able to manage a 12 gauge with 00 buck anyway.
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  #73  
Old 05-11-2018, 11:54 PM
quasimodo quasimodo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
Are a Baby Browning, three .45 acp pistols with one being suppressed, A Noveske Rogue hunter all set to rock, A Winchester new production model 1892 in .45 Colt, A Colt Delta Elite in 10mm, A S&W AR-10, and a Winchester model 70 bolt gun in .300 H&H magnum. But no shotgun.

Slacker


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  #74  
Old 05-12-2018, 12:20 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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My bad, Magazineman. Read 8 walls and wasn't thinking of 16 layers of drywall. But the main point I was trying to address is that 00 buck is a finicky beast. It doesn't penetrate all mediums equally. Round lead balls are 18th century technology. 223 bullets and 9mm slugs are 20th century technology. They tend to be more consistently efficient through a variety of different mediums. You can get them to jump through hoops - load them down and they can be subsonic and low to medium penetration. Load them up with special projectiles and they will shoot through steel, ballistic vests and mom's apple pie. Loaded up heavy, 00 buck will still only go through the pie I'm afraid.

But I do love the shotguns and have several. They are more of a one trick pony but that one trick they do very well. Excuse me - 2 trick pony - slugs.
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  #75  
Old 05-12-2018, 12:56 AM
Striker2237 Striker2237 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
My bad, Magazineman. Read 8 walls and wasn't thinking of 16 layers of drywall. But the main point I was trying to address is that 00 buck is a finicky beast. It doesn't penetrate all mediums equally. Round lead balls are 18th century technology. 223 bullets and 9mm slugs are 20th century technology. They tend to be more consistently efficient through a variety of different mediums. You can get them to jump through hoops - load them down and they can be subsonic and low to medium penetration. Load them up with special projectiles and they will shoot through steel, ballistic vests and mom's apple pie. Loaded up heavy, 00 buck will still only go through the pie I'm afraid.

But I do love the shotguns and have several. They are more of a one trick pony but that one trick they do very well. Excuse me - 2 trick pony - slugs.
Nah, I will take a 7.62x51 ANY day over those. Way more shots, way faster, way easier to use and just as deadly if using modern ammo if not more so.
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