Armed Federal Agents... - Page 2 - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 05-03-2018, 05:47 PM
scubadad scubadad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,299
It takes a real man to admit he has more beavers than he can handle
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-03-2018, 07:00 PM
Cappi Cappi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 14,686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Pete10 View Post
The feds shouldn't be armed at all with the possible exception of the Secret Service when guarding the President.
why?
Mailmen/women don't carry guns
But I'm fine with postal Dicks having them.
and IRS Dicks and Treasury Dicks or DoT Dicks or any/all fed agencies that have internal depts to investigate and arrest for crimes

after all, They are going after criminals , you know
I'd suggest being armed is prudent , be it the EPA investigating a junk/salvage yard or trucking company dumping haz waste in the creek or a slumlord scamming HUD money

those guys deal with criminals, Man

Quote:
Feds should use local law enforcement
Locals don't have the man power to do the fed's jobs.
and really, why should they when the feds are capable?




Quote:
Think, Waco, Ruby ridge and who knows how many other murders they've committed.
Black folk might share the same the view of local LE

another thought.... I don't "know" this, but strongly suspect the feds commissioned to carry in the line of duty, more than likely have better training than half the LE in this country


the rise in what many see as "militaristic" is the progression of a foreign enemy war footing .
With substantial elements of the enemy living right here with us

so maybe, just maybe, it's not all about rounding up Americans and sending them off to the FEMA "re-education" camps .
.... jaded folks and those full of black helicopter conspiracies notwithstanding

..L.T.A.
__________________
K.I.S.S.

Last edited by Cappi; 05-03-2018 at 07:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-03-2018, 07:28 PM
DWowner DWowner is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
"KEY FINDINGS (FY2006-FY2014)

12. The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service spent $4.77 million purchasing shotguns, .308 caliber rifles,
night vision goggles, propane cannons, liquid explosives, pyro supplies, buckshot, LP gas cannons, drones,
remote controlled helicopters, thermal cameras..."

and etc.

tipoc
This must be to crack down on all the hidden chicken and cattle feed lots and slaughter houses that pop up in remote locations.

or are these guys teamed with the DEA to deal with hidden grow spots?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-03-2018, 07:55 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappi View Post
why?
Mailmen/women don't carry guns
But I'm fine with postal Dicks having them.
and IRS Dicks and Treasury Dicks or DoT Dicks or any/all fed agencies that have internal depts to investigate and arrest for crimes

after all, They are going after criminals , you know
I'd suggest being armed is prudent , be it the EPA investigating a junk/salvage yard or trucking company dumping haz waste in the creek or a slumlord scamming HUD money

those guys deal with criminals...
IF they're dealing directly with criminals day in, day out, I agree...
Does the IRS NEED armed LEOs and SWAT teams... not really. Tax cheats hid behind lawyers, not guns.
Same with EPA violators, they're not generally (Segal films notwithstanding) surrounded by armed ex military mercenaries with machine guns....
Does the Forest Service need "tactical teams"... or a postal inspector who chases credit card fraud...? probalbly not. Do the investigative work that falls in your lane, and coordinate with other Fed agencies IF muscle is needed...

The individual that I'm working with has NO investigative or enforcement duties....

The problem with having something (guns and LE status in this case) is that it creates a need to use it, to justify its existiance.

67 seperate, armed Federal agencies is the epitome of government bloat. Consoledation and cooperation, with defined duties and responsibilities, would likely save billions of dollars annually. As an old mentor used to say about analysis, 'break it on down, lad'...

-What is the mission of the agency?
-What, if any, criminal investigative, enforcement, and apprehension responsibilities do employees have on a daily basis?
- What are the REAL, rather than hypothetical, Armageddon scenario, risks of the job on a daily basis?
- If the crimes being investigated are resolved 99.999% of the time with lawyers and dollars, what is the need for an armed capability?
- If, in rare cases, an organization needs an armed response, can it be provided by a bonified Federal LE organization, rather than internally?

To be crystal clear, I have exactly ZERO issue with this USDA employee being armed. He deals with wildlife that can often be nasty and dangerous. He works in remote areas alone. I find it odd that he was, without any investigatory or enforcement authority, an "LEO"...
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-03-2018, 08:07 PM
Vern Humphrey Vern Humphrey is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Arkansas, deep in the Ozarks
Posts: 4,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye fan View Post
Dept. of Energy, Dept. Veterans Affairs, Dept. of Education, Dept. of Agriculture, Dept. of Commerce, Dept. of Heath and Human Services and the list goes on an one. Then pretty much any of the agencies under those departments have a law enforcement wing as well.
Well, I can see the Department of Education needing armed agents -- how else will they capture Little Johnny when he's skipping school?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:08 PM
quasimodo quasimodo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 116
Not sure what part of the U.S. you are in but maybe pick up some kona bear 330's?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:14 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by quasimodo View Post
Not sure what part of the U.S. you are in but maybe pick up some kona bear 330's?
Theres more to trapping than just the tools... how, when, and where to set them to be effective is critical; a trap in a bad spot is just spring steel in the water.

Hence getting someone who does this for a living- it'll be effective, and Ill be able to learn how to go about it in the process....
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:19 PM
quasimodo quasimodo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 116
Good thought process. don't want to catch anything that shouldn't be.

if you have land, they have classes you can take. could be a good life skill for you to have.

I took the classes when I was a teenager MANY years ago, and I think they were run by the DNR. made good money a few years in a row
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:49 PM
M Yaworski M Yaworski is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
And I am supportive rather than critical of this.

However, this situation (which again I'm o.k. with) is all the more reason for other good U.S. citizens to also be armed.
Why does the Department of Education need a SWAT team?

To borrow from Jeff Cooper, when you have a capability you will find a reason to use it to justify having that capability.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:50 PM
Cappi Cappi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 14,686
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
IF they're dealing directly with criminals day in, day out, I agree...
Does the IRS NEED armed LEOs and SWAT teams... not really. Tax cheats hid behind lawyers, not guns.
Same with EPA violators, they're not generally (Segal films notwithstanding) surrounded by armed ex military mercenaries with machine guns....
Does the Forest Service need "tactical teams"... or a postal inspector who chases credit card fraud...? probalbly not. Do the investigative work that falls in your lane, and coordinate with other Fed agencies IF muscle is needed...
I'm sure all the criminals are nice friendly, cooperative folks too






Quote:
The problem with having something (guns and LE status in this case) is that it creates a need to use it, to justify its existiance.
oh..OK

Quote:
67 seperate, armed Federal agencies is the epitome of government bloat. Consoledation and cooperation, with defined duties and responsibilities, would likely save billions of dollars annually.
I might agree with that

Quote:
-What is the mission of the agency?
-What, if any, criminal investigative, enforcement, and apprehension responsibilities do employees have on a daily basis?
- What are the REAL, rather than hypothetical, Armageddon scenario, risks of the job on a daily basis?
I don't consider it takes "Armageddon scenarios" for threats to be real when dealing with criminals...white collar or not


Quote:
- If the crimes being investigated are resolved 99.999% of the time with lawyers and dollars, what is the need for an armed capability?
you pulling those numbers out of your hat??





Quote:
- If, in rare cases, an organization needs an armed response, can it be provided by a bonified Federal LE organization, rather than internally?
I s'pose they could
But I question whether your concern is over bloated agency budgets or fed agents with LE powers


..L.T.A.
__________________
K.I.S.S.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:00 PM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,228
With all these government agencies upping the ante on equipment and training and in keeping with that theme, I think our local neighborhood watch programs should create their own S.W.A.T. teams.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:21 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rural VA
Posts: 21,905
Some of us already have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
With all these government agencies upping the ante on equipment and training and in keeping with that theme, I think our local neighborhood watch programs should create their own S.W.A.T. teams.
The nearest house to me is almost a half of a mile away. My wife and I are well armed. And our bite trained Bull Yorkie is nothing to be trifled with. Plus we have attack bears as a last ditch line of defense.
Attached Thumbnails
DSC01981.JPG   DSC01897.JPG   DSC01861.JPG  
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:23 PM
mangeek mangeek is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Raleigh, NC and Madison,WI
Age: 50
Posts: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by toofew1911s View Post
With all these government agencies upping the ante on equipment and training and in keeping with that theme, I think our local neighborhood watch programs should create their own S.W.A.T. teams.
Sign me UP! I am game. Though with my current training level, I will need to stick with my daisy pellet rifle. I hope that is acceptable for the team.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-04-2018, 02:06 AM
mangeek mangeek is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Raleigh, NC and Madison,WI
Age: 50
Posts: 661
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
Same with EPA violators, they're not generally (Segal films notwithstanding) surrounded by armed ex military mercenaries with machine guns....
Your Seagal reference touched a nerve being an Aikido practicioner. It's all about the Aikido wccountryboy. All about the Aikido. Just sayin! Steven Seagal can't act, but his Aikido is/was well ...... !!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH6HtkySiCQ

Last edited by mangeek; 05-04-2018 at 03:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-04-2018, 08:24 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappi View Post
I'm sure all the criminals are nice friendly, cooperative folks too

Since what we're discussion is primarily white collar, administrative, rather than violent criminals, I stand by what I said... they hide behind laywers, not guns. Whenr was the last time you heard about the IRS shooting it out in a corporate office over a tax bill? IF muscle is really needed for a specific case, get an actual Federal LE agency to support.

oh..OK

When people have fancy toys, they create reasons to use them. They. The Gibson raid, a tactical assault on a gutiar factory, is a prime example... government agents belong in Federal prision for that... regardless, administrative agencies didn't have these things, at these levels, 25 years ago, and are none the worse for wear...

I don't consider it takes "Armageddon scenarios" for threats to be real when dealing with criminals...white collar or not

When you're giving a government employee armed, lawful authority over another, there needs to be a REAL, genuine NEED to do so, not the as yet to be realized hypothetical...

you pulling those numbers out of your hat??

Yep, my best guess based of the hundereds of IRS, EPA, and USPS shootouts that occur... given the available, or rather lack of availible cases, my guess is probably pretty close.

I s'pose they could
But I question whether your concern is over bloated agency budgets or fed agents with LE powers


..L.T.A.
Some thoughts.

As to your last observation, my answer is that BOTH are equally concerning. Hundereds of thousands of armed Federal officers spread out among almost 70 agencies is not a positive thing... nor is the expense it creates.

Perhaps a compromise for administrative, non LE, agencies is in order. No tactical stuff without a hard copy warrant in hand justifying the methods, signed by a Federal judge. It a competent court determines after the fact that the methodology was not justified, given available information and target, then everyone involved, from the judge down, gets 5 years at Club Fed...
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:12 AM
shovelstrokeed shovelstrokeed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,146
Heck, there is armed security damn near everywhere these days.
I worked in an industry that produced scientific equipment, basically for the chemical and pharmaceutical companies. Lots of Federal stuff included there.
National Labs that handled nuclear waste storage, production of nuclear products such as reactor fuels, medical stuff for radiation treatment and even analysis, pharmaceuticals out the ying yang.
The Pharma stuff surprised me a bit till I thought about it. There is one facility that produces 60% of the insulin used in the world. Anybody think that should be protected? It was, and pretty carefully at that. Took days just to do the paperwork that would get me through the main gate.
How about weapons research and testing sites?
Shipping and transport sites as well.
You may not see all of it but security is a major concern throughout the country.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:18 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by shovelstrokeed View Post
Heck, there is armed security damn near everywhere these days.
I worked in an industry that produced scientific equipment, basically for the chemical and pharmaceutical companies. Lots of Federal stuff included there.
National Labs that handled nuclear waste storage, production of nuclear products such as reactor fuels, medical stuff for radiation treatment and even analysis, pharmaceuticals out the ying yang.
The Pharma stuff surprised me a bit till I thought about it. There is one facility that produces 60% of the insulin used in the world. Anybody think that should be protected? It was, and pretty carefully at that. Took days just to do the paperwork that would get me through the main gate.
How about weapons research and testing sites?
Shipping and transport sites as well.
You may not see all of it but security is a major concern throughout the country.
All of this is very true, and I have zero issue with that armed security being Federal employees, such as at DoE...

I DO have concerns when you start calling a security guard, regardless of his employer or skill level, an LEO, and give them off site/off duty LE authority which has nothing to do with the scope of their duties.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:28 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Texas
Posts: 11,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Yaworski View Post
Why does the Department of Education need a SWAT team?

To borrow from Jeff Cooper, when you have a capability you will find a reason to use it to justify having that capability.
I'll admit, I'm with you in regard to the Department of Education.

But in the overall scheme of Federal agencies, many of them do have to deal with some very bad actors, e.g., Border Patrol, DEA, etc.. That was the intended context of my post.

In regard to the Department of Education, maybe they're terrified by unarmed striking teachers... and need SWAT response capabilities to regard to those teachers. Yep, that one is indeed a head-scratcher.
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member

"Freedom is only a temporary thing unless it is backed by the blunt capability and willingness to fight back against evil with sufficient arms." -- Myself

Last edited by chrysanthemum; 05-04-2018 at 10:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:41 AM
kwo51 kwo51 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,687
Government army , for things like Waco.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:42 AM
scw2 scw2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWowner View Post
This must be to crack down on all the hidden chicken and cattle feed lots and slaughter houses that pop up in remote locations.

or are these guys teamed with the DEA to deal with hidden grow spots?
The US is very susceptible to foreign pests and it is illegal to spray certain pesticides on food items exported to the US. There are laws governing what you can and cannot do as an exporter/importer.

APHIS tries to block illegal imports. Also, there is a potential bioterrorism threat.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:46 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
I think we need to make a distinction for the purposes of this thread.... it has nothing to do with bonified Federal LE agencies, FBI, DEA, ICE, Border Patrol, etc...

Its about the meat inspector thats a "cop", the mailman, the tax collector, the environmetalist, educators and social workers...

Does DoE need armed security at a nuclear facility? Absolutely. They need SECURITY , not LEOs. The job ahs nothing to do with armed enforcement or apprehension of criminals, its about physical security at a fixed site.
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:52 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by scw2 View Post
APHIS tries to block illegal imports. Also, there is a potential bioterrorism threat.
Nowhere in APHIS pr USDAs mission statment is terrorism (bio or otherwise) mentioned. Its NOT their lane. If such an employee stumbles across such a thing, call DHS or FBI- LEOs and investigators charged with counter terrorism...
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 05-04-2018, 11:38 AM
LostintheOzone LostintheOzone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 49th parallel
Posts: 5,602
My experience is with Washington State Parks.

I met a very professional and courteous gentleman that was a *state parks ranger* last year. Only he didn't look like a parks ranger and he didn't act like any parks ranger that I had ever encountered. This guy was SOC from his toes to his hat. He had all the gear and wore it like he used it a lot. Very pleasant fellow talking to people who were having problems or out of the ordinary camper situation. We were over staying our reservation as we had vehicle problems. He was just checking on us to make sure everything was as we had told the camp host.

I'm pretty sure this guy was "military tactically trained" as they say and I would bet a dollar to a donut he had a carbine in his SUV. More important, I would bet he knew how to use it.

Lots of road dogs and druggies in parks these days so they have to hire people like this guy with a larger skill set.
__________________
When asked by a passerby what sort of government the constitutional convention had formulated for the new nation, Benjamin Franklin memorably replied, A republic, if you can keep it

Last edited by LostintheOzone; 05-04-2018 at 11:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 05-04-2018, 11:55 AM
chrysanthemum chrysanthemum is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Texas
Posts: 11,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I think we need to make a distinction for the purposes of this thread.... it has nothing to do with bonified Federal LE agencies, FBI, DEA, ICE, Border Patrol, etc...

Its about the meat inspector thats a "cop", the mailman, the tax collector, the environmetalist, educators and social workers...

Does DoE need armed security at a nuclear facility? Absolutely. They need SECURITY , not LEOs. The job ahs nothing to do with armed enforcement or apprehension of criminals, its about physical security at a fixed site.
+1911 WCB. There are differences. And those whose sole "reason" is to intimidate citizens should not be carrying firearms. I fear there are a number of such offenders within the entire collection of government agencies.

Regarding the IRS, this is a multi-dimensional subject. In regards to ordinary citizens who "have troubles" with taxes, there is no good justification for armed IRS agents. That falls into the category of pure intimidation tactics IMHO, and it should not be permitted.

I'll never forget when a country club (of which I was a member at the time) was raided by a team of armed IRS agents. Agents claimed the club was under seizure; and members, including those out on the course, were ordered to leave. It was despicable and threatening conduct by the IRS. Turned-out that a real estate developer, from whom the club had leased some property, was delinquent. But the country club itself had done nothing wrong, had paid all of its taxes (and lease obligations). No apology was ever made.

However, truly evil and dangerous criminals are often more easily initially charged with violations of the Tax Code than with their other more nefarious crimes. For this subset (and it is only a subset) of criminals, a select group of IRS agents do need to be armed. Circumstances also change when a citizen threatens the life of an IRS agent, and IRS offices themselves are subject to some risk of attack ... a few years ago, someone angry with the IRS intentionally crashed a private aircraft into an Austin, TX IRS office. Anti-aircraft guns anyone?
__________________
NRA Benefactor Life Member

"Freedom is only a temporary thing unless it is backed by the blunt capability and willingness to fight back against evil with sufficient arms." -- Myself

Last edited by chrysanthemum; 05-04-2018 at 12:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 05-04-2018, 12:00 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,028
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrysanthemum View Post
Regarding the IRS, this is a multi-dimensional subject. In regards to ordinary citizens who "have troubles" with taxes, there is no good justification for armed IRS agents. However, truly evil and dangerous criminals are often more easily initially charged with violations of the Tax Code than with their other more nefarious crimes. For this subset (and it is only a subset) of criminals, a select group of IRS agents do need to be armed. (I know one such agent).
This "subset" is a miniscule minority, and can easily be dealt with using the support of a legitimate LE agency. Its simple. The IRS accountants do the math, and build the case. IF, and only if, real muscle is needed, call FBI or DoJ...

A permanent armed capability for a small fraction of a percentage of cases is justified...
__________________
I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain. ~ John Adams
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved