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  #26  
Old 07-26-2011, 06:42 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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exactly

I utterly and totally agree; honor the game.



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  #27  
Old 07-26-2011, 06:59 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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Originally Posted by gunnut606 View Post
Apparently you take it a lot more serious than we did , because we did not have any complaints and we all had a good time . Maybe because there was no money to be won.
I go to matches to win. There has to be a level playing field. If not, it's just a bunch of friends shooting around. Nothing wrong with that. However, it's not a match.

I've never won any money shooting.
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  #28  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:04 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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agree

Quote:
I go to matches to win.

Me, too.
But I accept "safe, and fun".



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  #29  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:36 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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Originally Posted by WESHOOT2 View Post
Me, too.
But I accept "safe, and fun".
Oh, I agree. If one is not safe, one is DQ'd.

And winning is the fun part....
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  #30  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:07 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by BillD View Post
I go to matches to win. There has to be a level playing field. If not, it's just a bunch of friends shooting around. Nothing wrong with that. However, it's not a match.

I've never won any money shooting.
I agree.... I don't like shooting USPSA unless I'm being competitive, its not that I'm some sort of prick that needs to make everything a dick measuring contest, but USPSA and I'm sure IDPA is not fun(to me) without competition, it is a game that is designed to have to try to out do other players... removing that aspect makes it equal to shooting in a range stall IMHO.

What really drives me crazy(and its just me, I don't go telling people this as its not my place) I try not being on squads with shooters that don't "try" to compete... They are all great people and shooting is fun with them, but I find myself trying to push myself more when I shoot with "good" shooters... its like the whole shooting atmosphere on the squad with good shooters is a little more competitive or makes you want to try more(I can't explain it but I'm sure you know what I mean)

MIke.
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  #31  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:24 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
I agree.... I don't like shooting USPSA unless I'm being competitive, its not that I'm some sort of prick that needs to make everything a dick measuring contest, but USPSA and I'm sure IDPA is not fun(to me) without competition, it is a game that is designed to have to try to out do other players... removing that aspect makes it equal to shooting in a range stall IMHO.

What really drives me crazy(and its just me, I don't go telling people this as its not my place) I try not being on squads with shooters that don't "try" to compete... They are all great people and shooting is fun with them, but I find myself trying to push myself more when I shoot with "good" shooters... its like the whole shooting atmosphere on the squad with good shooters is a little more competitive or makes you want to try more(I can't explain it but I'm sure you know what I mean)

MIke.
I know exactly what you mean. We had an IDPA shooter who thought he should add some realism so he would toss rocks your way while you were shooting or yell cuss words or both. I told him to stop, the SO told him to stop, the MD told him to stop. Finally the MD told him he couldn't shoot IDPA at that range anymore. So this guy calls Bill Wilson to complain. Now he can't shoot IDPA anywhere.

My goal is to be a better shooter. To do that you have to push yourself and, as you say, shoot with better shooters. To ensure your proper place in the order, the COF has to be exactly the same.

I do take it serious. I spend thousands of dollars a year on my sport. I could spend a lot less money and shoot at the dump but then, I really wouldn't know how I stack up or improve much. Now, I know exactly how I stack up against my peers, on any given day.

I have absolutely no problem with guys just shooting around or making it more of a social event than a match. I've been to those too. But I don't spend thousands to go to social events.
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  #32  
Old 07-26-2011, 08:34 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Performing the duties of an RSO is situations like this one is always a thankless tasks. Either way the RSO made the call he would have been a range Nazi in somebodies thinking. It's a game that tries to base itself on real situations most times. Make the call for the shooter and your being unfair to the other shooters, up hold the rules your a Nazi. Flip a coin, unless the coin lands on it's edge the RSO looses. I was an RSO for 10 years, my final straw was in a sanctioned match had a shooter show up on my stage with a cover garment that did NOT cover the pistol. They had already shot several other stages before getting to mine. I informed them of the situation and offered then a cover garment that did conceal the weapon. The MD overruled me and allowed them to proceed. Now the MD's call was unfair to all the other shooters in the match. IMHO The rules are the rules, it's one thing to bend them at club level matches it's another thing in a sanctioned match. As an RSO it is our duty to keep everyone safe and enforce the rules to be fair for all parties playing the game.
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  #33  
Old 07-26-2011, 09:30 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
Performing the duties of an RSO is situations like this one is always a thankless tasks. Either way the RSO made the call he would have been a range Nazi in somebodies thinking. It's a game that tries to base itself on real situations most times. Make the call for the shooter and your being unfair to the other shooters, up hold the rules your a Nazi. Flip a coin, unless the coin lands on it's edge the RSO looses. I was an RSO for 10 years, my final straw was in a sanctioned match had a shooter show up on my stage with a cover garment that did NOT cover the pistol. They had already shot several other stages before getting to mine. I informed them of the situation and offered then a cover garment that did conceal the weapon. The MD overruled me and allowed them to proceed. Now the MD's call was unfair to all the other shooters in the match. IMHO The rules are the rules, it's one thing to bend them at club level matches it's another thing in a sanctioned match. As an RSO it is our duty to keep everyone safe and enforce the rules to be fair for all parties playing the game.
I noticed that from my "limited" knowledge about IDPA rules.... there are a lot of rules that are VERY subjective... Ones that come to mind is the whole failure to do right, intentionally dumping a mag to avoid tactical reload, and the one about so much % of your body needs to be behind cover.


I know in USPSA, the only rules that are subjective are ones like did the shooter have a competitive advantage by breaking said rule(that has two penalty options) most are a yes or no rules, not a hmmm well it depends where I was standing.

MIke.
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  #34  
Old 07-26-2011, 09:48 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
I noticed that from my "limited" knowledge about IDPA rules.... there are a lot of rules that are VERY subjective... Ones that come to mind is the whole failure to do right, intentionally dumping a mag to avoid tactical reload, and the one about so much % of your body needs to be behind cover.


I know in USPSA, the only rules that are subjective are ones like did the shooter have a competitive advantage by breaking said rule(that has two penalty options) most are a yes or no rules, not a hmmm well it depends where I was standing.

MIke.

I had an SO try to give me a penalty for dumping ammo, which I did.

He said I shot one extra shot each on 3 targets to get me to slidelock when I wanted to.

I told him all 3 shots on all 3 targets were -0. Which rounds did I dump? If I had just dumped them into the berm yeah, penalty. But -0? No dumping there, those were aimed shots, just aimed quickly.
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  #35  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:25 AM
varmint varmint is offline
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Fun

We have shot IDPA "style" match with 22 rf indoors that was fun, just something different.

BILL D just curious do you shoot all guns/classes or just 1.
I tried shooting 3 classes but never got to the revolver class, it sure takes lots of time to shoot 2-3 guns in a match, I tried it a few times. As hot as it is here we have tried to finish early before it heats up.
Now I usually shoot CDP or SSP. Its all the making for a great day, out club is afilliated with CMP, we ger 30 cal carbine ammo and sometimes put a m1carbine stage in a match with the club furnishing the guns and ammo, just something different.
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  #36  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:40 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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Shooting guns in more than one class is not allowed around here in either USPSA or IDPA.

Last weeks match had 64 shooters, 12 of them in Single Stack. Started at 10, we were done by 2:30. Having to change gear from one gun to another takes so much time that if very many people did it, it would significantly extend the day, as you mentioned.

It got hot here too.
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  #37  
Old 07-26-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
I noticed that from my "limited" knowledge about IDPA rules.... there are a lot of rules that are VERY subjective... Ones that come to mind is the whole failure to do right, intentionally dumping a mag to avoid tactical reload, and the one about so much % of your body needs to be behind cover.


I know in USPSA, the only rules that are subjective are ones like did the shooter have a competitive advantage by breaking said rule(that has two penalty options) most are a yes or no rules, not a hmmm well it depends where I was standing.

MIke.
That's why the job of IDPA SO is so much more demanding than that of USPSA timer stand, uh, I mean RO.
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  #38  
Old 07-26-2011, 11:03 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Well hopefully this means they HAVE TO BE good range officials...

I have been R.O'ed by guys at USPSA matches that...
A- didn't know the rules
B- made up their own rules thinking they are in the rule book.
C- don't enforce the important rules but yet call you on stupid stuff.


I've had ROs that don't know how to operate timers, one that didn't call (2) 180s on a guy but yelled at me for "looking at the stage when it was not my turn"
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  #39  
Old 07-26-2011, 06:18 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Originally Posted by varmint View Post
I ran stages with 2 rules be safe and solve the problem.
That's called USPSA.
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  #40  
Old 07-26-2011, 07:07 PM
deatheater2 deatheater2 is offline
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I am an RSO or scorekeeper at about 80% of the matches I shoot. I find the people who complain the most are the ones who refuse to paste targets and slither about when it is time to clean up the targets and props.
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  #41  
Old 07-27-2011, 09:14 AM
Lppd4 Lppd4 is offline
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[QUOTE=mikeg1005;3371416]I noticed that from my "limited" knowledge about IDPA rules.... there are a lot of rules that are VERY subjective... Ones that come to mind is the whole failure to do right, intentionally dumping a mag to avoid tactical reload, and the one about so much % of your body needs to be behind cover.


This is the primary reason that I don't shoot IDPA often. Tactical range experts telling me what tactics to employ, wearing a cover garment in 95+ degree heat, (I am allowed to shoot out of my duty gear without said garment) but mostly subjective rules. I shoot with a group of officers, we have well over 100 years experience, if you combine all of our years of service and more tactical training than you can shake a stick at. Maybe I am a little too sensitive when an SO makes some BS call. The solution: we shoot USPSA and have since Bill was suppprting our sport. If you don't like one game try the other I think there is a place for everyone. You don't have to get caught up in the arms race in USPSA shoot production or single stack. We have several IDPAer's come to our matches they seem to enjoy the match and some do very well. We also have those shooters who don't tape, set up or tear down, the shoot and scoot crowd. Hey another thing both sports have in common!

Last edited by Lppd4; 07-27-2011 at 09:19 AM.
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  #42  
Old 07-27-2011, 09:40 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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I have a had a hard time convincing some SO's that if I am behind cover enough to shoot, I'm behind cover enough to reload. I've had some that tried shouting COVER, COVER at me while I'm reloading.
So many folks duck back in to reload the SO's think that's the way it has to be done.

But I really shouldn't complain that much. IDPA was good to me. I do believe I shot it exclusively for way too long. I should have tried USPSA much sooner.
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  #43  
Old 07-27-2011, 10:55 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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[QUOTE=Lppd4;3373160]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg1005 View Post
I noticed that from my "limited" knowledge about IDPA rules.... there are a lot of rules that are VERY subjective... Ones that come to mind is the whole failure to do right, intentionally dumping a mag to avoid tactical reload, and the one about so much % of your body needs to be behind cover.


This is the primary reason that I don't shoot IDPA often. Tactical range experts telling me what tactics to employ, wearing a cover garment in 95+ degree heat, (I am allowed to shoot out of my duty gear without said garment) but mostly subjective rules. I shoot with a group of officers, we have well over 100 years experience, if you combine all of our years of service and more tactical training than you can shake a stick at. Maybe I am a little too sensitive when an SO makes some BS call. The solution: we shoot USPSA and have since Bill was suppprting our sport. If you don't like one game try the other I think there is a place for everyone. You don't have to get caught up in the arms race in USPSA shoot production or single stack. We have several IDPAer's come to our matches they seem to enjoy the match and some do very well. We also have those shooters who don't tape, set up or tear down, the shoot and scoot crowd. Hey another thing both sports have in common!
The bueaty of USPSA is that YOU CAN shoot however you want... this means if an IDPA shooter comes and wants to do reload with retention/reload/shoot behind cover, etc. etc. etc... they can... they won't win, but they also will not be penalized for "failing to do right."

MIke.
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  #44  
Old 07-29-2011, 11:28 PM
Dan-357 Dan-357 is offline
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I was SOing a shooter who did this very thing at our club match a few months ago. He didn't have a hole in his pocket, merely fumbled the mag on his mag change, dropped it, went on to his next mag, and never picked the up the dropped mag. I called him on it and he didn't like it, but just showed him where it was in the rulebook. He is also an experienced shooter and SO himself, so I was somewhat surprised that he wasn't aware of the rule.

The match was just our local club match so no big deal, better to learn there than at a major sanctioned match or Nationals, where just 1 mistake like that can cost you several places. At least that's the way I have always looked at it.
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  #45  
Old 07-30-2011, 10:07 PM
Donnyglock Donnyglock is offline
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+1 to richpetrone. Under those circumstances at a local match I would not give him the penilty. If I were SOing that squad I would point it out to the shooter. However if one of my SOs called it I would back him up on his call because he is correct. As far as IDPA being a game it is. and with any game there are penilties for breaking the rules even if you don't mean to. I really started to learn the rules just so I can go faster without having to think about all the rules in idpa.
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  #46  
Old 07-30-2011, 10:09 PM
Donnyglock Donnyglock is offline
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Billd.
Thats a big pet peave of mine as well. Its amazing how many SOs dont understand if its a shooting position its also a reloading position.
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  #47  
Old 07-31-2011, 12:36 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Yes, I'll admit it took awhile for me to get that one. I also DO NOT care for the stages that tell you exactly how to shoot the stage. IMHO you sent up the stage, and let the shooter shot it how he wants, as long as the rules are followed. Example Standing at a close door the shooter MUST open the door with his shooting hand, then draw his pistol and engage the threats. To keep less knowing shooters from sweeping them selves because they open the door and draw their pistol at the same time. I very rarely occupy my shooting hand with anything other than my pistol. But then when I first started IDPA I learn first match I shot not to sweeping myself. I was always prepared to take the risk(?) I wouldn't shoot myself. I've done some unknowing things before but shooting myself is NOT on that list.
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  #48  
Old 07-31-2011, 05:02 PM
bbbean bbbean is offline
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I also DO NOT care for the stages that tell you exactly how to shoot the stage. IMHO you sent up the stage, and let the shooter shot it how he wants, as long as the rules are followed.
They call that USPSA...
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  #49  
Old 07-31-2011, 05:14 PM
Ben B. Ben B. is offline
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They call that USPSA...
True. In USPSA you can stand right in front of a row of targets and shoot at other targets with no hassle from rules or RO.
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  #50  
Old 07-31-2011, 05:23 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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IMHO you sent up the stage, and let the shooter shot it how he wants, as long as the rules are followed.
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They call that USPSA...
I call it IDPA... if you follow IDPA rules.

Seems there are some IDPA rules that posters here don't care to follow.
But some of them show up at an IDPA match anyhow.
I tell that type of shooter that he can shoot it his way, I will score it my way. If he is "only competing against himself" then he won't mind the big numbers.
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