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  #1  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:58 AM
js93 js93 is offline
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naive, stupid, or just bad

opinions wanted........I shot a low light competition last week for first time with my .45 1911. Have used 9mm for the previous 5 weeks, improving each week and scoring well. We shoot 5 shot strings in 6 seconds (for consistency, since I'm competing against myself, I always start with the gun at the low ready position, then raise once the target turns.) I had difficulty reacquiring sight quickly enough with any good accuracy due to recoil. Did much worse with 1911 than the 9mm.

Normally shoot the 1911 more accurately than the 9mm when just plinking, taking my time, so I figured I'd do better with it for this. Didn't think about the recoil factor. it was a big difference.

I was shooting taget 230 grain factory bullets.

I will soon start reloading and have seen that target shooters use roughly 4 grains of powder, give or take, depending.....

Will doing this make a big difference in the recoil? How many grains are in a standard factory 230 grain bullet?

In IDPA, steel match, etc....I can't see how .45 shooters can be as quick/accurate as they are, close to 9mm shooters, unless they are getting much less recoil, right?
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  #2  
Old 07-23-2011, 11:40 AM
tobwomhlm tobwomhlm is offline
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Proper technique

9MM will always shoot a little faster for most people. however proper technique will improve your shooting speed. Practicing proper form will improve your splits over time.

Good luck

BW
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  #3  
Old 07-23-2011, 12:38 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js93 View Post
opinions wanted........I shot a low light competition last week for first time with my .45 1911. Have used 9mm for the previous 5 weeks, improving each week and scoring well. We shoot 5 shot strings in 6 seconds (for consistency, since I'm competing against myself, I always start with the gun at the low ready position, then raise once the target turns.) I had difficulty reacquiring sight quickly enough with any good accuracy due to recoil. Did much worse with 1911 than the 9mm.

Normally shoot the 1911 more accurately than the 9mm when just plinking, taking my time, so I figured I'd do better with it for this. Didn't think about the recoil factor. it was a big difference.

I was shooting taget 230 grain factory bullets.

I will soon start reloading and have seen that target shooters use roughly 4 grains of powder, give or take, depending.....

Will doing this make a big difference in the recoil? How many grains are in a standard factory 230 grain bullet?

In IDPA, steel match, etc....I can't see how .45 shooters can be as quick/accurate as they are, close to 9mm shooters, unless they are getting much less recoil, right?
"4 grains of powder" is a very vague description. All powders are different, and the way you phrased your question is frightening.
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  #4  
Old 07-23-2011, 12:59 PM
js93 js93 is offline
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thanks

thanks for answering my real questions. i didnt include particulars on handloading because that is not my question. used it as a reference. when i start reloading I will be sure to consult you first and my speer handloading manual second. being my first question on this forum, i hope not everyone has the same attitude as you. thanks again.

let me rephrase for you. perhaps you can understand the real questions better.

do you know how many grains are typical for a factory loaded 230 grain tmj bullet? is the recoil different compared to handloaded competition loads?

have you shot a .45 at 20-60 varying feet in low light situation? 5 shots in 6 seconds? would hand loads make target acquisition quicker, or, is recoil similar.
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  #5  
Old 07-23-2011, 01:13 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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Yes, reloaded ammo made to just make power factor is going to be easier to shoot than many factory .45 ammo which can be 185pf or more. I shoot .40 and 9mm for the most part, but my .40s, at 169pf are much easier to shoot than factory ammo.

I still can't answer your question on how many grains of powder because that question is unanswerable.
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  #6  
Old 07-23-2011, 04:37 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Quote:
How many grains are typical for a factory loaded 230 grain tmj bullet?
I trust you mean how many grains of POWDER are (is) typical.

The only .45 ACP factory load I ever pulled down - hey, those things are expensive - was a 230 gr Blazer and the load was 4.7 grains of something that looked a lot like Bullseye. Since the Speer load range for that bullet is 5.2 to 5.7 grains of Bullseye, it is apparent that the powder in the factory load was appreciably faster burning than cannister lot Bullseye in order to generate spec velocity. The problem is, that they might have gotten a better price on a different powder for the next quarter and the charge be something entirely different. So the amount of an unknown bulk lot powder in a factory load is not helpful in predicting much of anything. The factory uses sufficient powder to generate the desired velocity without exceeding the maximum pressure for the caliber and the brand, grade, and quantity of powder varies unpredictably.

Now, the recoil of a typical (IDPA,IPSC) competition load will be less than for a factory load because it is at a lower velocity. I have to make major power factor but that can be done at perhaps 90% of factory velocity. That means 10% less recoil, which can make a difference. But with my choice in powder, I am doing that with 5.2 grains, not 4.7. So you can see that powder charge weight does not predict anything.

Muzzle flash with military ammunition is low; that is probably part of the mil-spec. Commercial factory ammunition, consumer reloads, or commercial bulk reloads might have low flash or bright flash because there is no care taken to minimize it. I have seldom seen muzzle flash bright enough to bother the shooter in low light but it sure gets the spectator's attention when it lights the place up.

Last edited by Jim Watson; 07-23-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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  #7  
Old 07-23-2011, 06:15 PM
HungrySeagull HungrySeagull is offline
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I don't know what to say, the factory 230's and 185's leave the barrel well enough.

Shoot what you carry. Or am I missing the whole point of the games?
Light Loading your weapon to make a "Race gun" for sake of time competition is not that great to me.

I do hope to shoot in a game but will treat it more of a defense exercise and may score dead last anyway.
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  #8  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:18 PM
waktasz waktasz is offline
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The point of the games is to score the most points possible while competing within the rules. The rules say 165 power factor makes major so that's the target for most people.

IDPA might have more realistic scenarios than USPSA, but they still have a set of rules to follow.
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  #9  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:18 PM
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AndyC AndyC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js93 View Post
is the recoil different compared to handloaded competition loads?
It can be different or it can be the same - because you can make hand-loaded ammo recoil as much or as little as you like (within reason, obviously, for safety, reliability as well as competition rules re power-factor).

It's not a binary yes-no, on-off, black-white issue - it's shades of grey.
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  #10  
Old 07-24-2011, 07:36 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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wrong

Quote:
....I can't see how .45 shooters can be as quick/accurate as they are, close to 9mm shooters, unless they are getting much less recoil, right?
Technique (like the thumb-forward ride-safety grip), practice, skill, and talent.

Hang around the chronograph stage at any major USPSA match and observe how few bunny-fart loads get tested.
I know that many prefer stuff in the 180 PF range.



Me?
I prefer my 45 ACP ammo be bunny-farting, and I mostly shoot 9x19.
But my 44 Redhawk makes 209........(240g LSWC, av 873fps).

A33102




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  #11  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:17 PM
SauerGrapes SauerGrapes is offline
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Quote:
Hang around the chronograph stage at any major USPSA match and observe how few bunny-fart loads get tested.
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  #12  
Old 08-04-2011, 08:50 PM
GSWEAR GSWEAR is offline
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Last Sunday my IDPA load chronoed 177 out of my 4" 625 that I shoot in IDPA.

Greg
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  #13  
Old 08-05-2011, 08:56 AM
lawboy lawboy is offline
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The OP's manner of asking questions indeed gives one pause. Nevertheless, welcome and good luck in your learning quest.
Regarding recoil of your firearm, there are a number of things you can do to balance the dynamics of the gun to get them more to your liking. All of them will require considerable study, trial and error on your part.
1. Change/balance spring rates for your load and grip style.
2. Change/balance the weight of the firearm -- guide rods, magazine wells, etc.
3. Alter the grip factor on the gun -- aggressive grips, skateboard tape, checkering etc.
4. As already mentioned, improve your grip technique. High Thumb grip with off hand wrist locked in down position, ears ahead of shoulders, shoulders ahead of hips, knees bent, is the foundation of any good action pistol stance.
5. You can also add a recoil buffer or two.
6. Regarding reloading, given your apparent level of understanding on the topic, it is really not possible to give you any advice over an Internet forum. You should seek out someone locally who can teach you the basics.
Good luck!
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  #14  
Old 08-05-2011, 09:14 AM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js93 View Post
opinions wanted........I shot a low light competition last week for first time with my .45 1911. Have used 9mm for the previous 5 weeks, improving each week and scoring well. We shoot 5 shot strings in 6 seconds (for consistency, since I'm competing against myself, I always start with the gun at the low ready position, then raise once the target turns.) I had difficulty reacquiring sight quickly enough with any good accuracy due to recoil. Did much worse with 1911 than the 9mm.

All else being equal... 45acp recoils/moves the gun more than 9mm... so this is normal.

Normally shoot the 1911 more accurately than the 9mm when just plinking, taking my time, so I figured I'd do better with it for this. Didn't think about the recoil factor. it was a big difference.

Huge factor when shooting fast.

I was shooting taget 230 grain factory bullets.

Factory ammo is usually between 830-890 fps... you are talking about 190+ PF... VERY VERY Rough shooting during a match compared to say something in the 170-172 PF range.

I will soon start reloading and have seen that target shooters use roughly 4 grains of powder, give or take, depending.....

Without getting into much detail... yes what you said is very vague... the weight of the powder depends on the the powder itself and how you seat the bullet, weight of the bullet.. some powders will give you more/less velocity with the same weight of charge... but I take it your are smart enough to research this yourself... you don't pick a powder charge based on just saying "oh 4 grains sounds good" you pick a bullet, pick a velocity, pick an accuracy level and adjust powder charge to meet those needs.

Will doing this make a big difference in the recoil? How many grains are in a standard factory 230 grain bullet?

Depends again on the company, and read my above.. you pick powder charge based on other factors... big companies use different methods to getting what they need, and they use powders that aren't always available to the public... You should change the question to, how many grains of powder ______ do I need to dupilicate factory 230 gr loads... and people can help you with that.... but you need to pick a powder first.

In IDPA, steel match, etc....I can't see how .45 shooters can be as quick/accurate as they are, close to 9mm shooters, unless they are getting much less recoil, right?

The bueaty of those sports is that shooting is NOT everything, getting your hits, knowing which targets to shoot from where, moving fast, moving smoothly, are all just as important as having fast splits.... and most serious compeititors with 45acp load them down to the 165-175 PF range... which makes them significantly more pleasent to shoot and you can shoot much faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by js93 View Post
have you shot a .45 at 20-60 varying feet in low light situation? 5 shots in 6 seconds? would hand loads make target acquisition quicker, or, is recoil similar.
All else being equal... yes... they would, becuase they'd have less recoil.

But knowing how to hold the gun, shoot it, trigger control, is just as big of a factor.... if you can't do those(not saying YOU can't, but in general) then the recoil of the ammo won't change anything.

MIke.
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  #15  
Old 08-05-2011, 11:15 AM
beagler beagler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js93 View Post
I will soon start reloading and have seen that target shooters use roughly 4 grains of powder, give or take, depending.....

Will doing this make a big difference in the recoil? How many grains are in a standard factory 230 grain bullet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by waktasz View Post
"4 grains of powder" is a very vague description. All powders are different, and the way you phrased your question is frightening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by js93 View Post
thanks for answering my real questions. i didnt include particulars on handloading because that is not my question. used it as a reference. when i start reloading I will be sure to consult you first and my speer handloading manual second. being my first question on this forum, i hope not everyone has the same attitude as you. thanks again.

let me rephrase for you. perhaps you can understand the real questions better.

do you know how many grains are typical for a factory loaded 230 grain tmj bullet? is the recoil different compared to handloaded competition loads?

have you shot a .45 at 20-60 varying feet in low light situation? 5 shots in 6 seconds? would hand loads make target acquisition quicker, or, is recoil similar.
I agree with waktasz, your question is worrisome. So let me explain. As has been mentioned, all powders are not the same. For this discussion, the key difference is burn rate. If you ranked all smokeless powders according to their burn-rate from fastest to slowest you would have a large spectrum. For a particular cartridge, only a portion of this spectrum is useful. Speaking generally, center fire rifles hang out on the slower burning end compared to pistol and shotguns. Magnum rifle cartridges use even slower powder.

Once you settle on a cartridge (in this case 45 ACP) a variety of powders are suitable. Again speaking generally, the slower the powder the greater the charge. So we cannot simply comment on "4 grains" of powder. For some powders it is light (possibly dangerously so) and for others it is high (possibly dangerously so). Factory ammo manufacturers don't advertise their components and they are free to change them from time to time and lot to lot. Knowing the charge of a factory round is of little use until you can identify the type of powder absolutely.

Reloading has its rewards but it is not without its responsibilities.

Hope this helps.
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Old 08-05-2011, 12:38 PM
SG29736 SG29736 is offline
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"Shoot what you carry. Or am I missing the whole point of the games?
Light Loading your weapon to make a "Race gun" for sake of time competition is not that great to me."

"I do hope to shoot in a game but will treat it more of a defense exercise and may score dead last anyway."

That is the beauty of IDPA, for example. If you want to compete in it to win, you treat it as the game it is and do whatever is allowed within the rules to have a better chance at winning. If, however, you want to move more slowly through the course of fire and shoot it according to your idea of proper defensive/tactical tactics, you are free to do that, while also staying within the rules.

Or, like many, you can find some aspect of the competition that isn't realistic enough for you and just use that as a reason not to get out in front of other shooters and see how you compare. Mark
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  #17  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:16 PM
tuj tuj is offline
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Originally Posted by js93 View Post
I was shooting taget 230 grain factory bullets.

I will soon start reloading and have seen that target shooters use roughly 4 grains of powder, give or take, depending.....

How many grains are in a standard factory 230 grain bullet?
The FPS of the bullet is more important than the grains of an unknown powder. As many have said, different powders give different results given the same amount of each. For a given weight bullet and barrel length, the faster the FPS, the more recoil, more or less.

Typical factory 230 FMJ loads range from 830-900 FPS, some are even a little faster. Competition ammo (for say bullseye, which is obviously different kind of competition with no power factor) typically is somewhere in the mid to high 700's from what I've seen.
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  #18  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:46 PM
mikeg1005 mikeg1005 is offline
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Originally Posted by HungrySeagull View Post
I don't know what to say, the factory 230's and 185's leave the barrel well enough.

Shoot what you carry. Or am I missing the whole point of the games?
Light Loading your weapon to make a "Race gun" for sake of time competition is not that great to me.

I do hope to shoot in a game but will treat it more of a defense exercise and may score dead last anyway.
Now, I of course don't care how other people shoot, nor am I telling people what they should do(people shoot USPSA and IDPA all the time like it was reality)... but its just my opinion... There is a score sheet and a timer, its not combat training, its not reality, its a game.

If you take the competition out then we might as well remove all the rules, ditch the timer and call it plinking at the shooting range with my friends.

MIke.
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  #19  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Earlsbud Earlsbud is offline
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Welcome js93

naive, stupid, or just bad

None, you just don't have a frame of reference yet because you haven't started reloading. Good advice and information have already been posted so good luck to you. Read the sticky notes. Great stuff!
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  #20  
Old 08-06-2011, 05:39 AM
WESHOOT2 WESHOOT2 is offline
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naive, stupid, or just bad; ooh, I love choices

My premium civilian defense load was standard-loaded with a 230g bullet launched at 815fps.
By design.

1) First it must go bang;

2) It must do so with controllable accuracy.



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