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  #1  
Old 07-14-2011, 05:57 AM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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Opinion and advice on 3 gun AR

Want to get into 3 gun matches ( sold my shotguns while back still need to get a good one) Pistol I have a full size xdm 9mm. ( sold all 1911 awhile back regret selling everything I did). But this is what I am working with ar wise. Both bcm builds RR lowers. The lower I have on the 20inch has a wilson combat ttu trigger. It has a nikon m223 1-4 pb reticle scope. And mbus backups.


My question is would it be better to set up the carbine for a 3 gun match. The 20 inch I just sited in last weekend, and didnt have a lot of time, got it on paper. adjusted to get it on. and started shooting off hand group was about 3-6in at 100 yards. Dont know if I should get another optic ( the reticle has the 3 moa dot I do like it though just dont know how good groups you need in 3 gun match). I am sure I can bench rest and bring in the group and tweeek on it a bit, just have not had time. Should I get better Irons, or possiable go all irons. Like the lmt with elevation adjustments on the rear, but would not be able to run an optic cause they are fixed.
Dont know a lot about 3 gun matches but would like to get involved with some competitive shooting. Thanks
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  #2  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:46 AM
JaeCT JaeCT is offline
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well personally in some of my matches i regret having a long barrel, (24"HBAR fluted) very front heavy. and most of the targets are under 75yds. i run irons and atm i have no optics. i plan on building a carbine with a 16" barrel for these matches running a 1.5x4 scope and a reddot off the quad rail forend. but then again id shoot what u are more familiar with and use more
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Old 07-14-2011, 09:35 AM
BillD BillD is offline
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When you get to a 16" barrel, you will need to make sure your ammo is making PF, assuming you go to chrono matches.

24" is too long for 3 gun IMO. 18-20" is about right.

If you are new at this, I'd just the 18" at several matches, look at other's rifles and see what you may like to change.
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  #4  
Old 07-14-2011, 09:44 AM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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I have a CMMG lower with 2 uppers, 1 is the 11" barrel with 5.5" muzzle brake with EOTECH sight, and a M-4 upper scoped. Depending on the courses of fire for the match dictates which upper I use. If the match has all CQB stages or limited distance stages, < 100 yards I use the shorty. If the match has stages that go beyond 100 yards I use the scoped M-4 upper. The shorty looses to much velocity beyond a 100 yards to knock down steel plates. In matches I have shot you have to use the same upper though out the entire match, you are not allowed to switch back and forth. So you have to make a decision before you start the match which to use. Be careful 3 gun matches are habit forming.
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  #5  
Old 07-14-2011, 05:45 PM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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Thanks guys think I ll make my 20 inch the 3 gun. Should my nikon m223 1-4 pb reticle be okay. Should I worry about getting a qd mount the scope and better buis. Also should I worry about a muzzle brake. Thanks
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  #6  
Old 07-14-2011, 06:04 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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A yes, no, and no, why do you need a brake on a 223? It looks like you already have a flash suppressor.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2011, 07:27 PM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
A yes, no, and no, why do you need a brake on a 223? It looks like you already have a flash suppressor.
Ya was thinking the same thing about the brake, plus its a 20 inch, just seems like I seen on alot of sites people was saying if you set one up get a good brake.

Feel like taking off the mbus? If no qd mount any reason to have them on. And you said yes to the optic correct. Thanks
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  #8  
Old 07-14-2011, 08:54 PM
guysmith guysmith is offline
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Yes to the optics, with it being a 1x-4x power scope, you dial down to 1 power for QCB stages and dial up to 4x for extended distance. Maybe keep the mbus, only mount them on the side of the rifle, you lay the rifle on it's side to use the mbus, if something happens to the optics. Never have understood why anyone would use a recoil reducing muzzle brake on a 223. With the recoil buffer system reducing the recoil, too almost nothing, in my mind it's being redundant. When discussing AR recoil systems, I always remember my D.I. in basic training demonstrating the lack of recoil by placing the butt of the rifle on his groin and pulling the trigger while the selector was set on full auto. His was still standing after the demo w/o affect. If you do have an issue with excessive recoil a new or strong buffer spring should do the trick.
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  #9  
Old 07-14-2011, 09:21 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Originally Posted by guysmith View Post
If you do have an issue with excessive recoil a new or strong buffer spring should do the trick.
Brakes on 3-gun rifles are not about recoil, they are about fast and predictable sight recovery.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2011, 09:51 PM
2MoreChains 2MoreChains is offline
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Based on the way your two AR's are set up, looks like you could compete in Tactical Division (sometimes called Scope-Tactical) with the 20" rifle with the 1-4x scope, or Limited Division with the carbine that has the iron sights (or you could add a non-magnified 1x optic or red dot).

In my area, we have a range that allows shots out to 550 meters, so typically our local 3-gun matches will have at least one long distance stage, with targets as close as 3 yards and as far as the range will allow. Since just seeing targets that far with a naked eye is pretty challenging for me, I need a 4x optic to see that far much less hit anything, so I compete in Tactical division with a 1-4x with a Switchview level to crank the scope from 1x to 4x as the needed.

So I guess it all depends on what your local club does for matches, and what kind of distances you'll be shooting at. But then again, just because distance may be limiting doesn't mean the MD's won't have itty-bitty targets such as Clay pigeons or head-shots...

I say just show up to a match with what you have and run it until you can check out what the others are using, then start tailoring your gear.
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  #11  
Old 07-15-2011, 04:33 AM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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Thanks guys. Just want to say it again incase you guys didn't see it but the optic has a 3 moa reticle. Should I get something same power different reticle or will that be okay does help with speed. Not spent lot of time with it but off hand groups at 100 yards was 3-6 inches. Sorry for questions but new to 3 gun matches and have 2 different ar's to set up just has me thinking to much. And any other opinions on the muzzle brake for follow up shoots thanks. Almost feel like getting rid of the 16inch and perfecting the 20inch with side irons and etc
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:45 AM
2MoreChains 2MoreChains is offline
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What kind of groups are you getting from prone or from a supported position? If you can hit a 4" target consistently at 100 yds with the setup you have, or a 10" plate at 200 yds, go for it.

But if you're interested in upgrading, a lot of folks in Tactical Div run 1-4x scopes with BDC reticles. Zero at 50/200 yds, and learn your holds at varying distances.
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:48 AM
2MoreChains 2MoreChains is offline
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I've played around with a couple of muzzle brakes, and currently have the PWS-FCS556 from Primary Weapons System on my AR.

Partly because the FCS556 works really well, and partly because it is a local company and I was lucky enough to score a gift certificate off a prize table last year...
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  #14  
Old 07-15-2011, 12:31 PM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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Ya I guess I need to tighten my group up a bit and just go enter one and see what I want to adjust. Was thinking about running a 2-8 bdc m223 with dueck 45 degree sights. But started thinking I might be good with my set up now. Have not shoot bench or prone yet with this optic yet. Got on paper adjust and shoot off hand didn't have a lot of time. Need to take back out and tweek in. But once I seen the dueck sights had me wanting to get a 2-8 m223 bdc and run with them irons. Have not even entered a match and already want to spend money I shouldn't. This could get ugly lol
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:44 PM
2MoreChains 2MoreChains is offline
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My suggestion is to go to a 3-gun match, any match, and check out what the other competitors are using before dumping a lot of money into your set-up. The thing with 3-gun is you need a LOT of gear, and it can get spendy fast!

I hear what you're saying about wanting a 2-8x variable scope for medium to far and using your offset iron sights for close... but there is probably a reason why most people in Tactical Div are using a 1-4x or 1-5x that is as close to a true 1x as possible for the close-up shots instead of canting the rifle to the side to transition to irons. But I suppose its something everyone needs to try for themselves (I did and didn't like it).

My AR for 3-gun is still a work in process, but here's my current setup:

18" 1:8 twist Wylde chamber JP barrel, rifle length gas system
12" JP/VTAC free-float handguard
PWS FCS556 comp (started with a Bennie Cooley comp)
Techwell extended charging handle
Millett DMS 1-4x scope on a ADM extended scope mount (no BUIS)
MGM Switchview level for the scope
Fail Zero BCG
Magpul stock and grip (may swap out the MOE stock for the UBR for balance)
Geiselle single stage trigger

Mags:
Magpul 30 rounders (but I do have 1 20 rnd mag in my kit for roof-top stages)
1 48 rnd mag (magpul with Nordic Component extension)
1 Springer coupled mag attachment (awesome for prone shooting)
BT mag pouches (usually only wear one, but have another for long Ironman-esque stages)

The Millett was an experiment, and it's an OK entry-level scope. Not great, but has gotten me through a bunch of local matches without embarrassing myself. Saving up my pennies for a Leupold w/ CMR2 reticle or a Burris XTR.

Last edited by 2MoreChains; 07-15-2011 at 01:47 PM.
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  #16  
Old 07-15-2011, 03:44 PM
3gunfunshooter 3gunfunshooter is offline
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+1 on what 2MoreChains wrote. Basically my same set up for 3 gun. I do have 2 20 rounds cinched for some odd prone/roof stages.
I did switch to a Burris XTR, like the BDC, kept the Millet DMS on my HD rifle.
JP is about the best set up out there.
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  #17  
Old 07-15-2011, 07:16 PM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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You guys have any pics. Seems everybody has jp will bcm hold up to them?
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  #18  
Old 07-16-2011, 01:55 PM
richpetrone richpetrone is offline
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Shotgun for 3 gun Matches

The magazine fed semi-auto Saiga shotgun seems to be the current shotgun of choice due to the speed of reloading. I am not aware of any other magazine fed semi-auto shotguns, but the Saiga has the current edge for speed of reloading.
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  #19  
Old 07-16-2011, 11:19 PM
ambluemax ambluemax is offline
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The top one is pretty much a text book 3 gun rifle until you develope your own preferences. You might want the carbine for the close in stuff, but you'll really hate yourself trying to hit 6 inch plates beyond 100 yards with the carbine.

my biggest regret in my 3 gun rifle purchase was going the carbine route instead of getting a mid length or rifle length handguard on a carbine length barrel
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:05 AM
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The magazine fed semi-auto Saiga shotgun seems to be the current shotgun of choice due to the speed of reloading. I am not aware of any other magazine fed semi-auto shotguns, but the Saiga has the current edge for speed of reloading.
Keep in mind that most clubs lump all mag fed shotguns in Open division.
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Old 07-17-2011, 08:07 AM
spartakis spartakis is offline
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Originally Posted by ambluemax View Post
The top one is pretty much a text book 3 gun rifle until you develope your own preferences. You might want the carbine for the close in stuff, but you'll really hate yourself trying to hit 6 inch plates beyond 100 yards with the carbine.

my biggest regret in my 3 gun rifle purchase was going the carbine route instead of getting a mid length or rifle length handguard on a carbine length barrel
Thanks I just need to figure out if my reticle on my scope will do the job or do I get the regular or bdc reticle. Going to the range this up coming weekend to see what the best groups I can get.
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:39 PM
slidelock1 slidelock1 is offline
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First of all GO! Go to the match. I use to shoot alot of 3 gun at my local range and the max distance available was 100 yards. Used an EOtech and always scored well. Then I went to a larger match and all but a couple of stages had rifle targets of at least 50 yards (and they were usually partially coverd or behind no-shoots) and one stage had targets at 75, 150, 250 and 400 yards. It looked like I was lobbing artillary at the target. The next time I went back with 1-4 power scope and did a little better. So it may take shooting a match or two to get a feel of what works for you. You could take both rifles and if most of the stages are run and gun use the iron sights, if not go with the optic.
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  #23  
Old 07-25-2011, 10:38 AM
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3 gun

Our matches are usually close targets due to range layout, we have a fellow that sometimes shoots his m1 carbine and is awesome with it at realistic distances for it. I shoot my Rock River with an EOTech and am very pleased with it, I have a bad leg and shoot for fun now days and really enjoy the matches.
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