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  #1  
Old 08-13-2020, 11:52 PM
HeavyBluntObject HeavyBluntObject is offline
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General 1911 question

Hello all,
question and i know this will sound odd, but i have tested it a few times, im sure its grip related but not sure as to specifics.

I have 2 1911s, one 5 inch Citadel and one 3 incher i built myself. A few friends have brought other 1911s as well 2 citadels, my buddies home made gvt and defender, and a commander i dont recall the manufacturer.

Several of us shoot together, we have 2 lefties. The lefties seem to have a lot of stovepipes, the other 4 of us who are righties cant reproduce the issue. The 3 inchers they have the most trouble with, the 4.25 less and the 5inch still has occasional issues with them. Also one of the lefties has pretty big hands and the other has a friggin bear paw. Most of the righties are normal sized hands but one of us has giant hands too but doesnt have the issue.

Since they have all asked me to help them with tightening up groups and what not, I am my groups goto guy and I have no idea what to tell them.

I imagine this has to sound absurd, that stovepiping is attached to lefties. But when it is consistent and reproducible, the lefties get stovepipes every other mag and i go through hundreds of rounds with the same gun and same ammo and no issue.

Im relatively confident it is a grip issue, but can you guys give me any suggestions on where to look?
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  #2  
Old 08-14-2020, 01:32 AM
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Interesting problem

Do you guys swap out pistols to see if the jams follow left handedness, or a particular pistol, or pistols?

By stovepipe, do you mean an empty case jams in the breech pointing up; or the jams are with loaded rounds? That alone could mean a world of difference.
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:52 AM
1MoreFord 1MoreFord is offline
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Another question to consider. What/whose ammo is being used by the lefties? Are the RH guys using the same ammo?
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  #4  
Old 08-14-2020, 02:32 AM
HeavyBluntObject HeavyBluntObject is offline
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Yeah it is a weird one. OK, i have seen it across several guns but the shorter ones it seems to happen with more.
It also happens with the same ammo, usually Remington umc230 fmj. Also seem it with Winchester white box, and blazer. All 230 grain fmj round nose.

Stovepipe, maybe i am in error over the definition there but i thought it was when you extract an empty after firing and the case is sticking out with the slide closed on it.

Its the weirdest thing i shoot a couple hundred rounds with no problem the. Jeff and Ian get it within a couple mags. Same ammo same gun.

It happens less on my 5 inch gun than on my 3 inch, but i see this persist across other 1911s from my circle of friends. Lefties have stovepipes, and it is worse on shorter guns.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:37 AM
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I wonder if the left trigger finger is somehow pressing up on the slidestop release paddle? Perhaps only during recoil? If so, perhaps that slows down the slide enough cause "short stroking" of the slide, resulting in incomplete ejection.

I do not see why a left handed person would be more prone to "limp wrist" failures than a right handed person. These would be more likely with a light weight frame when a very soft grip is used. Something that is actually very hard to induce with a 1911, if you try to.

Are the lefties using a two handed grip when they see stove pipes? Does the slide ever fail to lock back on an empty magazine for them?

I have a suggestion: Have the lefty with the most frequent stovepipe failures try shooting two mags right handed. If the stovepipes go away, then there is something about the left hand grip triggering the problem.

They do not need to worry about hitting the target, as long as they don't miss the back stop. Some right handed people find that their left trigger finger needs to be reminded to stay off the trigger until ready to shoot. This while proper trigger discipline is an ingrained reflex with their right hand finger - so be cautious about that.
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:06 AM
Viper_29 Viper_29 is offline
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I would term that as extractor tension and it may be a tuning thing for them and their gun because you may be right about grip and but the extractor is losing control of the case on extraction so I'd look there for sufficient tension, too.
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper_29 View Post
I would term that as extractor tension and it may be a tuning thing for them and their gun because you may be right about grip and but the extractor is losing control of the case on extraction so I'd look there for sufficient tension, too.
But why would it do that for a left handed shooter; but not a right handed shooter?
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:54 AM
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Perhaps the Lefties need a firmer grip and don't allow the gun to jump as much.
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  #9  
Old 08-14-2020, 09:08 AM
Reloader Reloader is offline
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Shorter guns tend to have heavier springs, meaning the resistance to the recoil (grip) needs to be firmer.

Are they shooting with bent elbows, or locked? Bent is preferred, but means the grip must be very firm since there is flex. Do they lean into the gun to support/resist the recoil?

Is this two handed shooting, or one?
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  #10  
Old 08-14-2020, 11:22 AM
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Having huge gorilla hands means nothing. I used to take a friend out to shoot who was a big guy, yet he still held pistols with a girlie grip and was intimidated by the recoil.
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  #11  
Old 08-14-2020, 05:20 PM
Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Having huge gorilla hands means nothing. I used to take a friend out to shoot who was a big guy, yet he still held pistols with a girlie grip and was intimidated by the recoil.
Which is nothing more than a training and mental attitude problem. Were you able to help him solve it?
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:47 PM
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If I am shooting for accuracy rather than speed, my grip on my dull size 1911 is very light. The muzzle jump is pronounced, but ejection is still around 8 feet. This with an 18 lb recoil spring and a small radius FPS. shoot "white box" ball ammo.

The OP should have the lefties shoot right handed, or have a righty shoot those guns left handed as an experiment.

Just holding a gun lightly may not produce limp wrist failures, as much as jerking the frame back on the shot - a sort of flinch. These videos explore what it takes to induce limp wrist failures: https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...writs+failures

That said, I agree that very short pistols may be more prone to short stroke from not being held firmly enough, due to light weight frames; and light slides that are driven by heavier recoil springs.
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:52 PM
Colt191145 Colt191145 is offline
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I shoot left handed (prefer anyhow). If either pistol has an extended slide stop that could be the problem. It could also just be how your friends are gripping the pistol.

Easy test. Have them shoot right handed. You can narrow it down then.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:08 AM
HeavyBluntObject HeavyBluntObject is offline
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Lots of input, thanks all.

As for the gorilla hands not necessarily being an issue, makes sense that was just another thing to add in there, when im confused id rather bring too much info to the table than not enough.

Neither of them look to be under gripping but that is a possibility.

It does have an extended slide release, and my 3 incher if memory serves has a 22lb spring.

The point about the grip being high and pushing on the slide release causing a short stroke can be it.

The guy with the worse problem does usually have his arms locked and leans into it a bit.
He usually keeps good groups though so i didnt assume he had a weak grip issue, but I could be wrong.

Next time he and I shoot i will have him try right handed. I will try left handed next time i shoot as well.
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:58 AM
rbert0005 rbert0005 is offline
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You answered your own question.

It is the Remington ammo. It is too weak to cycle the shorter barrels properly.

Bob
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:52 AM
roaniecowpony roaniecowpony is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyBluntObject View Post
Lots of input, thanks all.

As for the gorilla hands not necessarily being an issue, makes sense that was just another thing to add in there, when im confused id rather bring too much info to the table than not enough.

Neither of them look to be under gripping but that is a possibility.

It does have an extended slide release, and my 3 incher if memory serves has a 22lb spring.

The point about the grip being high and pushing on the slide release causing a short stroke can be it.

The guy with the worse problem does usually have his arms locked and leans into it a bit.
He usually keeps good groups though so i didnt assume he had a weak grip issue, but I could be wrong.

Next time he and I shoot i will have him try right handed. I will try left handed next time i shoot as well.
Read this thread about a lefty with a jamming problem. Could be the same cause. https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1021018
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Old 08-15-2020, 04:23 PM
Steam Boat Steam Boat is offline
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You didn’t specify caliber, so I am going to assume .45 ACP.
Has anyone taken a close look at how these lefties are holding their pistols while they are firing ?
Do they have ambi thumb safeties ? And riding the thumb safety in a manner that their thumb is rubbing the slide that it would slow it up and cause the stove piping ?
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:39 PM
tgt_usa tgt_usa is offline
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Right thumbs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyBluntObject View Post
Hello all,
question and i know this will sound odd, but i have tested it a few times, im sure its grip related but not sure as to specifics.

I have 2 1911s, one 5 inch Citadel and one 3 incher i built myself. A few friends have brought other 1911s as well 2 citadels, my buddies home made gvt and defender, and a commander i dont recall the manufacturer.

Several of us shoot together, we have 2 lefties. The lefties seem to have a lot of stovepipes, the other 4 of us who are righties cant reproduce the issue. The 3 inchers they have the most trouble with, the 4.25 less and the 5inch still has occasional issues with them. Also one of the lefties has pretty big hands and the other has a friggin bear paw. Most of the righties are normal sized hands but one of us has giant hands too but doesnt have the issue.

Since they have all asked me to help them with tightening up groups and what not, I am my groups goto guy and I have no idea what to tell them.

I imagine this has to sound absurd, that stovepiping is attached to lefties. But when it is consistent and reproducible, the lefties get stovepipes every other mag and i go through hundreds of rounds with the same gun and same ammo and no issue.

Im relatively confident it is a grip issue, but can you guys give me any suggestions on where to look?
Right thumbs pressing the end of the slide stop?

Happened to me shooting 400+rds during an instructors class. All students required to use one's dumb hand. Although nearly ambidextrous, that had me shooting lefty all day. My thumbs index at the distance of the slide-stop pin. Doing that all day broke my 1911 - and it was my main competition gun.
} -_;
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:41 PM
tgt_usa tgt_usa is offline
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yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by roaniecowpony View Post
Read this thread about a lefty with a jamming problem. Could be the same cause. https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=1021018

Yep, we had a thread like this years ago; title something about counter-sinking slide-stop pin-holes. Pretty sure you wrote to that one also.
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Last edited by tgt_usa; 08-16-2020 at 04:43 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-17-2020, 12:38 PM
WobbleZone WobbleZone is offline
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I am ambidextrous as to shooting handguns and rifles, and practice about 50% from each side. I have never had any side-specific functional issues, except that my double action revolver trigger stroke is slightly better from my left hand.

I also have had no eye dominance issues, which don't matter when lining up front and rear with target. Shotgun is a whole different matter, however.

Last edited by WobbleZone; 08-17-2020 at 12:40 PM.
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  #21  
Old 08-18-2020, 04:35 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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issues with various 1911 guns of different barrel lengths....

Unfortunately, the various guns everyone is using could have issues due to different recoil spring weights or different main spring weights.....

On average, a barrel that is shortened by one inch in a 1911, will lose about 50 fps in muzzle velocity, so the shorter barrel guns may not perform as well with 230 gr. Rem. ammo.....

When shooting 1911 style pistols, I firmly believe that the proper balance of the recoil spring weight and mainspring weight, is needed for the power of any given load for any particular gun.
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