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  #1  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:28 AM
Bonham1911 Bonham1911 is offline
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Why Do So Many People Bash The 1911 For CCW?

I guess this is a semi-rhetorical question. I know the major objections, which I have listed below with my thoughts on each. I just don't understand the hate towards the 1911 for CCW and how far people go to belittle anyone who does.

I recently posted in a regional forum looking for advice on the best carry 1911 that is compliant in my state. You can't imagine how many snarky replies I received. Why would you carry a 1911, bad choice, capacity, etc., etc.

Manual safety
Folks make a huge issue of the manual safety on the 1911. To me, it is a training issue. If you commit to only carry single action autos, this becomes fairly ingrained and automatic to a point. Now, I thankfully have never been in a situation where I have had to draw a firearm so I don't know what will happen under stress, but my hope is that with consistent training it wouldn't be an issue God forbid.

Capacity
This one, especially for me, is a non-issue. My state restricts us to 10 round magazines. I carry a commander 1911 in 9mm which gives me 10+1. I feel that this would be adequate for most people regardless of your state and local laws. None of us go looking for trouble or will likely be in a sustained gun fight. I can understand objections from LEO's or military personnel, but for civilians, I just don't think this is a big issue.

Reliability
Ok, I can understand this objection as I have owned a 1911 or two that wasn't 100%, but I think reliable models are out there or they can be made reliable with the help of a qualified 1911 smith. No, they will never be Glocks or M&P's in this regard, but I think with a little care and attention, they can be reliable enough for CCW.

What do you guys think?
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:46 AM
lashlaruhe lashlaruhe is offline
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I would guess that:
#1 is its very heavy
#2 would be size

Its the same for S&W 3rd Generation 4506-1

Just my opinion
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:50 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonham1911 View Post

What do you guys think?
I think there are many legitimate arguments against the 1911. If folks think those are problems, and they choose something other than a 1911, that's fine.

However, the 1911 has some some features not available on other guns, and if those features are an advantage to you, and they outweigh the disadvantages, the 1911 could be the gun for you.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:52 AM
BrokenGrunt BrokenGrunt is offline
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I've carried a LW Commander in 45 ACP for most of my adult life, coming up on 40 years.

1. Training issue. When I shoot a non-1911 in matches I find myself wondering where the thumb safety is.

2. I carry 8 round mags with two spares. If I need more than that then I kucked up.

3. Buy good mags, know your gun. I can't remember the last time I had a non-shooter induced malfunction in one of my 1911 pistols. I try and shoot at least 500-700 rounds a month through them.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:54 AM
jtq jtq is offline
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Originally Posted by lashlaruhe View Post

Its the same for S&W 3rd Generation 4506-1
I have a 4506.

Every time I begin to think my Government size 1911 is too big and heavy, I pull out the 4506 and realize how sleek and ergonomic the 1911 is in comparison.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:56 AM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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Because they are Girly-Men...

But seriously, shoot what makes you happy, 1911's are great, but there are a handful of really top-notch poly's out their which will give them a run for their money, my favorite off-1911 semis are the Walther-PPQ familly - trigger likely the best in the poly world and not that far behind a fine custom 1911 trigger, ergonomics just as good as a 1911 (not the "same" but just as effective at least).
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Last edited by combat auto; 08-07-2020 at 09:58 AM.
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2020, 09:58 AM
gnystrom gnystrom is offline
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An interesting video from I guy I really enjoy. He makes some points that will anger some but overall he does make sense. That said I carry my Wilson Stealth while at work but a P365 the rest of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUfCWf6SoW0

Followed up with,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1rYQTbrsa8
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  #8  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:03 AM
jr24 jr24 is offline
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Weight to capacity ratio and the thumb safety, as you note.

Pretty much it. Some will say size, but they likely haven't tried and realized how easy it is to conceal the 1911 due to the flat profile.
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:34 AM
fnfalman fnfalman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonham1911 View Post
I guess this is a semi-rhetorical question. I know the major objections, which I have listed below with my thoughts on each. I just don't understand the hate towards the 1911 for CCW and how far people go to belittle anyone who does.

I recently posted in a regional forum looking for advice on the best carry 1911 that is compliant in my state. You can't imagine how many snarky replies I received. Why would you carry a 1911, bad choice, capacity, etc., etc.

Manual safety
Folks make a huge issue of the manual safety on the 1911. To me, it is a training issue. If you commit to only carry single action autos, this becomes fairly ingrained and automatic to a point. Now, I thankfully have never been in a situation where I have had to draw a firearm so I don't know what will happen under stress, but my hope is that with consistent training it wouldn't be an issue God forbid.

Capacity
This one, especially for me, is a non-issue. My state restricts us to 10 round magazines. I carry a commander 1911 in 9mm which gives me 10+1. I feel that this would be adequate for most people regardless of your state and local laws. None of us go looking for trouble or will likely be in a sustained gun fight. I can understand objections from LEO's or military personnel, but for civilians, I just don't think this is a big issue.

Reliability
Ok, I can understand this objection as I have owned a 1911 or two that wasn't 100%, but I think reliable models are out there or they can be made reliable with the help of a qualified 1911 smith. No, they will never be Glocks or M&P's in this regard, but I think with a little care and attention, they can be reliable enough for CCW.

What do you guys think?
I think that most people are flaming idiotic lemmings.
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:38 AM
bradsvette bradsvette is offline
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I love the design, craftsmanship, and materials that comprise 1911s. I have plenty of Glocks and M&Ps. They're excellent guns. But the 1911 has a history, and thus a soul. Plus, as an older guy, I grew up with 1911s.

Any gun can malfunction. I've had Glocks malfunction. 1911s may be a bit more finicky, but I'm willing to accept that in order to carry what I love. Besides, if the Sierra is really hitting the fan, then I want a rifle in my hands anyway.
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  #11  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:56 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Manual safety
For many people a carry gun with both a manual safety and a passive safety (grip safety) is a lot more reassuring than a short-trigger, striker-fired pistol with no manual safeties at all that will fire if anything contacts the trigger. If you prefer the latter then fine, as long as you train with it. But people who criticize manual-safety guns are idiots.

Capacity
If limited to ten rounds I would rather have 8+1 .45ACP than 10+1 9mm, all else being equal. Citizens have a right to carry guns with whatever capacity they want, but the truth is in 99.99% of civilian-involved shootings the fight is over long before anybody has a chance to expend more than a half-dozen rounds or even reload, assuming they're not simply mag-dumping on their assailant. In other words, outside of wartime capacity is mostly a non-issue.

Reliability
A quality, well-maintained 1911 is more than reliable enough for self-defense or carry use. Civilian gun carriers do not typically fire 5,000 rounds without cleaning nor do they routinely drop their carry guns into a Tupperware container full of soupy Iowa mud.

We 1911 lovers have been dealing with this sort of crap since Day One. At first the 1911 was inferior to a good Single Action Army. Then it was inferior to a good .38 or .357 revolver. Then it was inferior to a double-stack, double action 9mm. Then it was inferior to a .40S&W. Then it was inferior to a Glock, or a SIG, or a whatever. My only advice is, just roll your eyes and carry on.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.

Last edited by dsk; 08-07-2020 at 10:58 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:27 AM
green papaya green papaya is offline
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the M1911 was designed in a time when men were men , no metrosexuals or snowflakes or any silly stuff like that

the M1911 was originally an American gun made by Americans

the young guys complaining about it now just arent man enough to handle a gun thats been used to win WW1 - WW2 and many battles after

Last edited by green papaya; 08-07-2020 at 06:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:32 AM
dmthomp32 dmthomp32 is offline
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All great comments. I have a Dan Wesson Guardian in 9mm that occasionally carry. For me I love the safeties, I train with it and instinctually swipe a safety upon draw with it and my Glock! The main challenge for me and carrying my guardian is the length and angle of the frame. For my build, 6 '1" 210lbs, I find that the angle of the grip causes it to just stick out about 3/4" more than my Glock 19 and tends to print or show more because of it. And that is with both of them in Galco King Tuck holsters with a decent forward cant. Also I carry at the 3:30-4:00 position. So I usually end up carrying the Glock not because I like it more but because it doesn't print nearly as much with it's further swept back grip angle. I've been thinking about buying another holster with a stronger cant to see if the Guardian can come back into the rotation as I really prefer 1911's or the alternative could be to purchase and the Dan Wesson ECO and reduce the frame size to an Officer!

That is always on the table.

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  #14  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:32 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Quote:
the M1911 was designed in a time when men were men , no metrosexuals or snowflakes or any silly stuff like that

the M1911 was originally an American gun made by Americans

the young guys complaining about it now just arent man enough to handle a gun thats been used to win WW1 - WW2 and many battles after
I wouldn't go that far. Plenty of guys who carry Glock 19s are just as much men as those who carry a 1911. However the simple fact is that while the 1911 is no longer a practical choice to arm a large military or police force, an individual who chooses his own weapons has just as much reason to pick a 1911 as any other. The so-called negatives of the 1911 simply aren't that relevant in civilian use.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
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  #15  
Old 08-07-2020, 11:51 AM
gumbee gumbee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsk View Post
Manual safety
For many people a carry gun with both a manual safety and a passive safety (grip safety) is a lot more reassuring than a short-trigger, striker-fired pistol with no manual safeties at all that will fire if anything contacts the trigger. If you prefer the latter then fine, as long as you train with it. But people who criticize manual-safety guns are idiots.

Capacity
If limited to ten rounds I would rather have 8+1 .45ACP than 10+1 9mm, all else being equal. Citizens have a right to carry guns with whatever capacity they want, but the truth is in 99.99% of civilian-involved shootings the fight is over long before anybody has a chance to expend more than a half-dozen rounds or even reload, assuming they're not simply mag-dumping on their assailant. In other words, outside of wartime capacity is mostly a non-issue.

Reliability
A quality, well-maintained 1911 is more than reliable enough for self-defense or carry use. Civilian gun carriers do not typically fire 5,000 rounds without cleaning nor do they routinely drop their carry guns into a Tupperware container full of soupy Iowa mud.

We 1911 lovers have been dealing with this sort of crap since Day One. At first the 1911 was inferior to a good Single Action Army. Then it was inferior to a good .38 or .357 revolver. Then it was inferior to a double-stack, double action 9mm. Then it was inferior to a .40S&W. Then it was inferior to a Glock, or a SIG, or a whatever. My only advice is, just roll your eyes and carry on.
This^^^^^^^^^end of discussion.
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  #16  
Old 08-07-2020, 12:10 PM
TominMO TominMO is offline
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WWWBHD? (What would Wild Bill Hickok do?)

IMO, if James Butler Hickok were somehow still alive today, he would have switched to cartridge pistols, then the 1911 when they became available. More power and capacity than his cap-and-ball guns. By 2020, he would have switched to a modern semiauto, such as a Glock or Sig, in whatever caliber he felt was best. Unless like many of us he became completely enamored with 1911s, and then he would have upgraded to Wilsons, Nighthawks, etc.
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  #17  
Old 08-07-2020, 12:16 PM
Get Out Get Out is offline
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IMOA it's because people who bash can't keep their opinion to themselves.
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  #18  
Old 08-07-2020, 12:16 PM
The Viking The Viking is offline
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When someone asks me why i carry a 1911 instead of one of the more modern designs I simply reply - I don carry a 1911 because it is the best gun I carry it because it is the gun I shoot the best. That pretty well says it all.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:52 PM
borderboss1 borderboss1 is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
I wouldn't go that far. Plenty of guys who carry Glock 19s are just as much men as those who carry a 1911. However the simple fact is that while the 1911 is no longer a practical choice to arm a large military or police force, an individual who chooses his own weapons has just as much reason to pick a 1911 as any other. The so-called negatives of the 1911 simply aren't that relevant in civilian use.
I agree that most agencies want guns that are lighter and easier to shoot, which the Glock and Glock wannabes are. While that's true, there's a couple of interesting things:

1. The number of police NDs have skyrocketed since the adoption of Glocks. This is the double edged sword of a short trigger pull and no safety.

2. There's a police force in a town near me, which is a suburb of Chicago, where 100% of the force carries 1911s. This isn't a small force either. I thought that to be sort of interesting.
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  #20  
Old 08-07-2020, 12:57 PM
Bonham1911 Bonham1911 is offline
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Great comments guys! Thank you all for weighing in and keeping it a civil discussion. That is why I love this forum.
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  #21  
Old 08-07-2020, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by borderboss1 View Post
1. The number of police NDs have skyrocketed since the adoption of Glocks. This is the double edged sword of a short trigger pull and no safety.
There have also been a disturbing number of instances where police have emptied their 15-shot pistols into a single adversary and/or hit bystanders as well, especially in NYC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TominMO View Post
WWWBHD? (What would Wild Bill Hickok do?)

IMO, if James Butler Hickok were somehow still alive today, he would have switched to cartridge pistols, then the 1911 when they became available. More power and capacity than his cap-and-ball guns. By 2020, he would have switched to a modern semiauto, such as a Glock or Sig, in whatever caliber he felt was best. Unless like many of us he became completely enamored with 1911s, and then he would have upgraded to Wilsons, Nighthawks, etc.
It's fun to theorize on what famous Old West legends would have done, but Hickok continued to carry his 1851 Navy percussion revolvers even after large cartridge revolvers like the S&W Model 3 and Colt SAA came out. Veteran gunfighters tended to carry what worked and what they were familiar with. Of course on the day he was murdered he was carrying a small S&W Model 1 pocket pistol (a .32 cartridge revolver) instead of his 1851s, possibly because there was an ordinance against carrying firearms in Deadwood.
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Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1970 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.

Last edited by dsk; 08-07-2020 at 01:03 PM.
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  #22  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:01 PM
drail drail is offline
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Post No. 11 hit it right on the money. All of the guys on Youtube claiming the 1911 isn't suitable for carry are clowns.....
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  #23  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:09 PM
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Grandpas50AE Grandpas50AE is offline
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The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, that I often reply to this same question is this: The 1911 was designed for personal combat at a time when there were craftsmen that were making and fitting them, and at the time they were cost-effective to produce and use where a large labor force in the designated (military) service were able to repair and maintain them; not so much today, especially in the civilian world. Most people today are not "gun guys or gals" and do not know how to do minor repairs and do not want to spend the extra time maintaining these firearms. For those folks that do care to do the maintenance and minor repair, and spend the time training with them, the M1911A1 (and modern renditions of it) are (IMHO) the finest self-defense firearm on the planet. The other guns certainly address a growing market of those folks that do not want to be "gun guys (or gals)" and they are perfectly fine, although no better or worse if not properly trained with or not properly maintained. JMHO.
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  #24  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:10 PM
Zerodefect Zerodefect is offline
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I carry mine sometimes, but why I don't always:

Heavy
Rust prone

Obsolete grip shape. Glock, CZ, 2011's are preferred.

Hard to speed reload.

Slower to draw fast, consistently. If you rush it, you might be punished by failing to engage the grip safety or turn off the thumb safety quickly. Easy to mitigate this, but a Glock is grab and go boom. Easier.

As for carry, when Vbob's were around $2000, I found that a Glock 23 does everything they can, and is cheaper.

I'm anxiously awaiting the DWX. If the .40 fullsize out performs my G34/35.4, I might try the compact model for ccw. Currently, I feel that the Glock23 is the best carry mousetrap out there.
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  #25  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:13 PM
tipoc tipoc is offline
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Originally Posted by gnystrom View Post
An interesting video from I guy I really enjoy. He makes some points that will anger some but overall he does make sense. That said I carry my Wilson Stealth while at work but a P365 the rest of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUfCWf6SoW0

Followed up with,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1rYQTbrsa8
The fella is a salesman for high end 1911's. This is his advice for whether to carry a 1911 or not. He bypasses the normal pros and cons and goes straight to the "they don't work reliably" speil.

Kimbers won't run at all (3 of 5 rounds will jam), Ruger 1911's may run, and Springfields will do OK for range guns. Beyond that it's best to spend 2-3 grand on a reliable for carry and self defense 1911.

He begins with saying that original 1911's from Colt were excellent reliable guns because they were built one at a time by gunsmiths. Something that is factually untrue. These guns were built in a factory with the mass production techniques of the day.

We've heard this before. Generally from folks who point the new buyer to more expensive 1911's. One of the give aways of this is that they have sweeping criticism without specific admonitions. That's the case here.

In Part 2, the second vid, note that the "1911 guy", a store owner and fan of the 1911, begins by saying that you can get good reliable factory made 1911's in the $700.-$1000. dollar range and that they will serve for self defense. He speaks the truth and knows something of 1911's which the host of the show does not.

tipoc

Last edited by tipoc; 08-07-2020 at 01:19 PM.
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