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  #1  
Old 05-23-2014, 08:17 PM
weshowe weshowe is offline
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The .357 SIG Hi-Power

Gents,

Anyone here having any long term success using the .357 Sig in the .40 S & W Hi-Power converted to .357 SIG?

If so, what kind of round count are you at?

We studies this on the Hi-Powers and Handguns Forum and decided it was "to much of a good thing" for the Hi-Power.

What say you?

Wes
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2014, 08:43 PM
dj528 dj528 is offline
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I have one on order with Don Williams at present. Ill be sure to post about it when it comes in.

As only EKM makes 357 HP barrels at the moment and there are no 40 HP's in production, I don't know how many conversions we will see. However, when Chuck Warner starts putting his new production High Powers out hopefully 357 will be an option.
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:03 PM
chuntaro chuntaro is offline
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I see it like this Wes. The black and whites of the Texas department of public safety, the highway patrol, were the first major agency to adopt the sig pistol and cartridge combination. They have now moved away. I do not recall if to the 40 or the 9. Hope I do not see one to ask. I guess it feeds well but is said to be snappy. I never have had a problem with feeding the forty either in the Sig or the BHP. In the eyes of an ammunition consumer that does not reload, I only see the round offered for sale in the most well stocked places and it is not cheap. I had a friend that played with it extensively along with the similar concept 400 corbon. He liked the 400 better. I might have a greater interest in the forty down to nine but that is me.
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:52 PM
eicas eicas is offline
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Ive always been interested in the concept but very skeptical. The only agency Im familiar with that runs the cartridge goes thru 229s on a fairly regular basis. Now granted the Sig is an alloy frame and a stainless slide, but the .357sig isnt exactly known for being gentle on equipment. Id have to inquire on what their average frame life is running lately.

It would be Thor's hammer though...
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  #5  
Old 05-23-2014, 11:01 PM
Burgs Burgs is offline
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There has been some recent info on the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) 9mm transition on some of the LEO forums.

The current academy class was intended to be the first with the new issue 9mm M&Ps.
60 out of 60 pistols were supposed to have gone down with various small parts failures.
The M&Ps were recalled and the class was then issued with the tried and true Texas DPS .357 Sigs.

The switch to 9mm has been halted, for now at least.
The troopers are reportedly ecstatic as the 9mm switch was widely viewed by the road guys as a forced economy move.

Good news for the Texas DPS Troopers if it holds.
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Last edited by Burgs; 05-23-2014 at 11:03 PM.
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2014, 11:13 PM
chuntaro chuntaro is offline
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The m and p. Somehow I recall the Belgians bought those to replace the hi power.
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  #7  
Old 05-23-2014, 11:49 PM
Jäger Jäger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuntaro View Post
The m and p. Somehow I recall the Belgians bought those to replace the hi power.
Their infantry guys are showing up with FN Five Sevens... The Belgiques are big on "shop local" for their weaponry. If they need a weapon and FN makes one in that class, that's what they use.

Given the quality of FN's weapons, not such a bad move on their part.
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  #8  
Old 05-23-2014, 11:57 PM
dj528 dj528 is offline
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Without turning this into a discussion/debate on 357 vs 9 vs 40, I'll give you my reasons for the choice of 357 in a BHP

I carried a 357 HK USPc for 9 years before I switched to my commander. In a pistol engineered for the 357 its an excellent cartridge and the USPc is such a gun. A fairly high level person at Sig told me the USP/P2000 series guns were the best guns ever chambered in 357. I'll return to this issue in a bit. Meanwhile, every gun I own has a frame mounted thumb safety (1911, SW MPc, BHP, USPc etc) and have essentially the same manual of arms.

Most of the 357's good press is based on its supposedly superior ballistics over +p and even +p+ 9mm. It also feeds and cycles more reliably than any other cartridge available in a handgun. Perhaps most importantly (vs +p+) its the ammo the gun was designed for and shouldn't break the gun.

However, whatever ballistic edge it holds is based on testing in full size barrels (4"+) and is reduced in compact barrels (incl the USPc). In a full size gun the options in 357 sig are: 226, M&P, P2000 (out of production) and the Glock's (the same Sig rep called them the worst option in 357 for reasons both well known and not relevant here). None of these guns have a steel frame.

The BHP is also clearly a full size gun and has a steel frame, but will it stand up to the 357? As we know when FN tried to turn the BHP into a 40 without any significant engineering changes it did not go well. The revised 40 BHP is allegedly overbuilt even for the 40 cartridge. So my hope is a Browning (and Saive) designed all steel, single action, full size gun (with some help from Don Williams, and parts from Chuck Warner and Jim Garthwaite) will be a great combo in 357.

(And I hate 40)

Last edited by dj528; 05-24-2014 at 12:00 AM.
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2014, 12:05 AM
Burgs Burgs is offline
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Don't forget the Sig 229. The Secret service and the FAMs like theirs a lot.

There was a retired LEO and moderator on Stehpen Camp's H&A Forum who went by the title "TwoGuns".
He was quite fond of his .357Sig conversion, but I don't recall if he mentioned what his round count was. IIRC he used EFK Fire Dragon barrels.
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Last edited by Burgs; 05-24-2014 at 12:39 AM.
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  #10  
Old 05-24-2014, 12:49 AM
Jäger Jäger is offline
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Originally Posted by eicas View Post
It would be Thor's hammer though...
So is the .40 S&W it's built on. Which isn't surprising, given the relationship of the two, and the fact that expansion ratio favors larger calibers, all else being equal.

Looking at similar bullet weights from the same manufacturer:
147 gr. 4.0" barrel - 1255fps / 514 ft/lbs
150gr. 4.0" barrel - 1275fps / 542 ft/lb

125 gr. 4.5" barrel - 1525fps
135 gr. 4.5" barrel - 1420fps

For myself, data like that puts a question mark over why I would choose the 357 Sig to begin with. Not counting "because I don't have one", of course.
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  #11  
Old 05-24-2014, 06:45 AM
silversport silversport is offline
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I don't believe I have ever read where the 357 SIG was ever harder on pistols than the .40 S&W...I recall Mr. Camp was also interested in this combination (357 SIG in a Hi Power) but don't recall if he ever had the combination made for him...

I like the 357 SIG and some pistols shoot it just fine while others feel like a handful in this configuration...I have an M&P 357 compact in this caliber (soft shooter) and a P226 .40 with the 357 SIG conversion barrel (SIG made) where it is less of a soft shooter...

Bill
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2014, 06:52 AM
weshowe weshowe is offline
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Gents,

We looked at the .357 fairly hard on the Handguns and Ammunition forum and decided it was not for the Hi-Power. You've given a lot of reason TOO use the .357 Sig, but I can't, for the life of me, find one person who has converted one and used it successfully in the long term. That may be the answer in itself...

Good to see a lot of you again.

Wes
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2014, 07:06 AM
chuntaro chuntaro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
Their infantry guys are showing up with FN Five Sevens... The Belgiques are big on "shop local" for their weaponry. If they need a weapon and FN makes one in that class, that's what they use.

Given the quality of FN's weapons, not such a bad move on their part.
http://www.handgunsandammunition.com...up-hp-s-w.html
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  #14  
Old 05-24-2014, 11:10 AM
Burgs Burgs is offline
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I think what we're seeing is Belgian Police M&P vs Army FN 5.7.
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2014, 12:20 PM
Burgs Burgs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
So is the .40 S&W it's built on. Which isn't surprising, given the relationship of the two, and the fact that expansion ratio favors larger calibers, all else being equal.

Looking at similar bullet weights from the same manufacturer:
147 gr. 4.0" barrel - 1255fps / 514 ft/lbs
150gr. 4.0" barrel - 1275fps / 542 ft/lb

125 gr. 4.5" barrel - 1525fps
135 gr. 4.5" barrel - 1420fps

For myself, data like that puts a question mark over why I would choose the 357 Sig to begin with. Not counting "because I don't have one", of course.
I've been carrying 135 gr. PowRBall in my HP 40, since the JHP situation in my state is somewhat unclear.

PowRBall states their 135 gr. load does 1325 FPS for 526 ft/lbs.
That should leave a mark.

I've found the PowRBall 40 S&W load to be an unusually soft shooting cartridge, which surprised me a little bit.


As a former .357 Magnum duty revolver guy who still carries a S&W 640 in .357 as a backup, I find the .357 Sig to be interesting and likely a very good duty/self defense round in the right pistol.
Having said that, having ample supplies of 40 S&W and many other calibers,
my interest in the .357 Sig isn't compelling enough to make me want to adopt another caliber.
Adopting another caliber is a lot like adopting another dog. There's a LOT more involved in it than just the trip to the dog shelter.
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Last edited by Burgs; 05-24-2014 at 12:25 PM.
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  #16  
Old 05-24-2014, 05:13 PM
Matquig Matquig is offline
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Although it might start out a little expensive, I would think a 1911 pattern pistol might still be the best platform for the .357 SIG, (or 9x23, if one wanted another step up in power and capacity over the .357 in single stack). Regrettably, one would need to handload for the 9x23, for all practical purposes. The BHP may or not be durable enough, but the 1911 has a good record of taking the pounding of the .38 Super with strong loads for a long time, and the .357 SIG would be in that recoil impulse category. There are .40 Commander sized guns made by some of the makers out there, and any of the custom smiths could easily build a .357 SIG 1911 gun. Also, it would be a barrel drop in conversion for any 10mm.
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  #17  
Old 05-28-2014, 01:35 PM
CWarner CWarner is offline
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Originally Posted by Matquig View Post
Although it might start out a little expensive, I would think a 1911 pattern pistol might still be the best platform for the .357 SIG, (or 9x23, if one wanted another step up in power and capacity over the .357 in single stack). Regrettably, one would need to handload for the 9x23, for all practical purposes. The BHP may or not be durable enough, but the 1911 has a good record of taking the pounding of the .38 Super with strong loads for a long time, and the .357 SIG would be in that recoil impulse category. There are .40 Commander sized guns made by some of the makers out there, and any of the custom smiths could easily build a .357 SIG 1911 gun. Also, it would be a barrel drop in conversion for any 10mm.
I'm betting with some tweaks, the HP platform would be ideal for .357 Sig. I'm not so sure in the 1911, though it does work well. In the 1911, you do have the 9x23, which gives you one more round than the .357. With the HP platform, I think the .40 and .357 can really shine. I have not used the .357 a lot, but having been a proponent of the 9x23 from day one, I do like the performance.
Getting basically the same out of the HP platform, and potentially better gun longevity, is icing on the cake to me.
I think there are a few tweaks learned with the 9x23, that may assist in increasing the durability factor, perceived, real or not , with the HP.

CW

Last edited by CWarner; 05-29-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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  #18  
Old 05-28-2014, 02:59 PM
Daniel Watters Daniel Watters is offline
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It strikes me that the .356 TSW would be an easier conversion. Alas, the .356 TSW is dead.
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  #19  
Old 05-29-2014, 09:36 AM
CWarner CWarner is offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel Watters View Post
It strikes me that the .356 TSW would be an easier conversion. Alas, the .356 TSW is dead.
I would agree Daniel. I still have a reamer too....lol.
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  #20  
Old 05-29-2014, 05:37 PM
Daniel Watters Daniel Watters is offline
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S&W never figured out how to market the .356 TSW. It didn't help that USPSA yanked the rug out from under the Model 3566 by suddenly adding a minimum caliber to the power factor rules for Limited Division. By all rights, it should have stomped the .357 SIG into the ground.
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  #21  
Old 05-29-2014, 06:05 PM
WilsonCombatRep WilsonCombatRep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Watters View Post
S&W never figured out how to market the .356 TSW. It didn't help that USPSA yanked the rug out from under the Model 3566 by suddenly adding a minimum caliber to the power factor rules for Limited Division. By all rights, it should have stomped the .357 SIG into the ground.
Agreed. IIRC ammo was a real problem and it was never marketed towards the really large group-self defense/LE. It was always pigeonholed in competition.
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  #22  
Old 05-29-2014, 06:33 PM
CWarner CWarner is offline
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Renamed and re-marketed....possibilities? LOL.
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  #23  
Old 05-29-2014, 07:52 PM
dj528 dj528 is offline
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It didn't help that they called it "356" instead of 9mm or 357.

Chuck, I hope your next gen hi powers are the best new gun in a lifetime. Can't wait to see them roll off the line. (So to speak)
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  #24  
Old 05-29-2014, 07:56 PM
WilsonCombatRep WilsonCombatRep is offline
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At the time the .40 was the darling of S&W so the .356 was basically ignored.
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  #25  
Old 05-29-2014, 07:58 PM
WilsonCombatRep WilsonCombatRep is offline
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And it is just a 9x21.5mm LOL

9mm Browning Express has a nice ring to it..
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