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Has this happened to you -- bang, bang, pffft!

4K views 37 replies 25 participants last post by  vmr357 
#1 ·
A friend and I went shooting the other day. We shot our pistols, no problem. Then he wanted to try his new upper he got from a local builder. He shot a mag, then handed the rifle to me with a new mag. I fired several rounds then PFFFT and a cloud of smoke. The gun was locked up. The charging handle wouldn't budge. We packed up and he took the rifle to an armorer he knew who dug out a split case and a broken extractor. He said it was Federal .223 rem 55 grain FMJ Walmart box.
 

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#4 ·
What was the bolt? The extractor broke and wedged into the case
Not my rifle, so I don't know what was in it. It was locked up tight. The report I got the next day was that it took over an hour to break it down and clean it up.

I figure life is too short for a cheap, ugly gun so I've got a DDM4v7. I would appreciate any ammo recommendations. I'm more a handgun guy than a long gun guy. I've got some PMC Bronze .223, PMC X-Tac 5.56, and thought I'd try some American Eagle 5.56 XM193. Anything else anyone would recommend?
 
#3 · (Edited)
The last box of Federal anything was some 22lr for my wife and it was crap had so many squibs I was afraid the lead was stuck in the barrel.

For practice shooting I use PMC Bronze .223 burns cleaner good quality brass and never had a bad round in all I have shot of it.

For my AR I bought a Toms Tactical BCG, very good quality they specialize in them, the bolts are shot peened and magnafluxed. Always best to source your parts from quality. My neighbor bought a Spikes upper despite my objections and that thing is junk. He has had it to my house a dozen times because parts were flying apart inside, starting with the forward assist to the bcg. All this Obama era parts and assemblies and the run on ammo decreased the quality all around.
 
#24 ·
My shooting buddy shoots PMC bronze in his ruger SR762 and was not recovering his brass. I picked it up to reload for practice rounds for my AR 10. at least 5 in 10 had the primers blow out because the case web was so soft the heads deformed, I asked him if he had any issues with it and he said he was getting a few FTEs but nothing serious. now I just leave PMC brass laying on the ground like wolf steel cases. the PMC ,223/5.56 cases I cut down to 300 BO were a huge waste of time I stick with lake City in both 5.56 and 7.62. I have never had any issue any Lake City brass. I have never tried PMC in handguns, maybe that's better.
 
#5 ·
I won't buy any of the black-box Federal 5.56 ammo anymore. I've encountered poorly-crimped bullets and once had a bullet telescope back into the case during feeding. Fortunately when the primer went off the powder simply caught fire and made a mess inside the action, since the bullet had fallen back inside the case. I don't understand how a company that makes premium quality handgun ammo like HSTs and Hydra-Shoks can mess up and make some really crappy 5.56 and .22LR ammo.
 
#7 ·
Wow I'll stick to PMC.
 
#10 ·
So the interesting question becomes how do you confirm chamber specifications? I know of only one tool from a place called Michiguns that even looks common person usable, let alone this only answers the 556 vs 223 question. I joined these forums looking for the answer to this exact problem! But, seeing it's not OP rifle doubt it's going to get resolved and posted. Good luck

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#12 ·
Well since this is a forum and my only credibility is based on my replies I would like to start an open discussion based on the picture that was shown the casing was ripped apart by the extractor which appears to have been separated from the bolt. I would like to see each of the above listed things that could have led to something other than an out of spec chamber. If we are talking out of spec ammo does that mean it's loaded too hot has incorrect projectile dimensions? My goal would be to collaborate and get a sticky thread to show how to properly diagnose this occurrence.

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#13 ·
The case became stuck. Based on the pictures, the cause was NOT a bad extractor. Had the extractor broken or slipped off the case, leaving the brass relatively undamaged, the extractor may have been the culprit.

So the question becomes: what caused the case to stick, to the point that the rim was ripped off and the extractor broken?

- Out of spec ammo. Either an overcharge that swelled the brass to the sticking point, or brass that was too soft and over expanded. Given the "pffft" reported by the OP, overpressue seems unlikely, though the bolt tried to go rearwqrd, with enough force to break the extractor and dqmage the case. Improper case dimensions could be a cause.

- Heat. Less than 60 rounds fired, so probably minimal impact

- Fouling. This assumes that the upper has been used before, and not cleaned.

- Poor chamber coating. If the surface of the chamber doesn't hqve a smooth surface, the brass can bind to it, causing a stuck case. The same principle applies to an out of spec chamber.

Most likely a combination of contributing factors. Even with good ammo, a bad chamber, some fouling, and heat could cause a stuck case.
 
#14 ·
So the high school scientist in me would like to see the same weapon firing again and to see if the problem could be replicated. Also if some of the ammunition used is still around to try and remove that from the equation. I still think the chamber could be 223 not 556. Bringing the ammo in question if it was 223 or 556.

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#15 ·
Tough to do. IF the cause was a bad round, you could fire 10k rounds of the same ammo and not have a problem.

A gunsmith can evaluate both the chamber cut and coating. Heat and fouling failures are somewhat random, and may or may not be easily repeatable.
 
#16 ·
Also, it had to go 'bang' and then 'pfft' because the bullet was gone before the gas hit the bolt and the extractor pulled on the case. Because the case stuck, the extractor ripped it open before breaking. I say it must have been that way because no mention was made of the bullet stuck in the barrel, so it was not a 'squib' round but a full-power one.
I have to guess that the chamber in that barrel is a .223 instead of a 5.56, or is otherwise a tighter than normal chamber where the dirt from a few rounds jammed it.
Either way it doesn't sound like anybody tore down the new upper and gave it a thorough cleaning, inspection and lube before shooting it.
I suspect there is a problem of some kind in that upper; either in the chamber or the headspace.
 
#20 ·
In fifty years of shooting all types of guns and all brands of ammo, the only pfft, I ever encountered was military surplus from the 1950s and someone else's reloads.
I've never had commercial factory ammo do that. I have had some 22s of various brands, just fail to fire at all. The only sound was the hammer falling or firing pin striking the back of the case. A dud if you will.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I'm thinking the extractor



and maybe out of spec chamber as someone mentioned. I'm thinking the chamber is extremely tight and the extractor ripped the casing. Could also be this is a parts gun put together on the kitchen table using who knows where "from" cheapo parts and probably by a novice gun builder..... Likely the situation here.
I wouldn't blame the ammo.:cool:
 
#23 ·
and maybe out of spec chamber as someone mentioned. Mainly you know a broken extractor would cause this malfunction although extremely rare (to the max)...Unless somehow this is a parts gun put together on the kitchen table using who knows where "from" cheapo parts and probably by a novice gun builder..... Likely the situation here.
I wouldn't blame the ammo.:cool:
I would suggest this is improbable, given the case damage... the stuck case broke the extractor, rather than than a failed extractor resulting in the case being stuck...

Were the case relatively undamaged, yet stuck, the extractor could be part of the problem....
 
#25 ·
Your friend "wanted to try his new upper he got from a local builder"...a man in the tactical training field advised, any put together parts, kits, bought on line...is a put together "parts gun"/"kitchen gun". If I buy an AR, I'll buy a quality name and I'll pay more but I'll end up with a gun built by a company with a history and a reputation and I doubt I'll have a minute's trouble with the gun.
 
#27 ·
A chamber cast using Cerrosafe is a common practice. A bit tricky on an assembled upper, but doable with some forethought.

I would like to see this! How would it be measured? The difference in 223 vs 556 might be hard to measure on a mold? YouTube?

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#29 ·
Go / No Go

It sounds like with case or chamber out of spec. Either neck on cartridge was too long or chamber was too short resulting in case become wedged at neck. Subsequently, it sheared off. A Go / No Go chamber gauge will quickly tell you if the chamber is correct (within spec). What is interesting is the PSsst sound which normally would indicate a failure to either ignite OR ignited powder and expanding gasses had no back pressure because there was plenty of free space to expand. This would indicate either a inadequate powder charge, ruptured case, or bullet not seated in case. Ruptured case or bullet pushed back into case usually includes a nice flash show around the receiver as looose powder ignites within the upper and lower receiver. Tend to find excess soot and some unburied powder inside receiver and top of magazine.
 
#34 ·
PMC XM193 is great stuff it's all I run for practice and plinking. The stuff is made in S.Korea and if I lived next to N.Korea I'd make good ammo and PMC does. Over 20,000rds of it in the last 3 years not one issue and I do not reload that kind of round so I pickup the brass I find and sell it for scrap.

My Glock 42 loves the .380 PMC too. I hate glocks but I got unbelievable deal on it at $120 and it transferred clean through my FFL so no worries about it being stolen or anything.
 
#36 ·
I have put over 20k rounds of Federal LC through my rifles with zero problems. I have had 2 squibs with PMC and 5 blown out primers out of 3k rounds and had a Fiocchi round blow up a rifle on me(improperly loaded) from the first 50rd box I opened out of a case. Fiocchi covered the replacement of the upper as the lower was fine. I have also had 0 problems with PPU (10k) and Wolf Gold(8k).
 
#38 ·
Quick update

I'm back home in a free state while my friend is still in the People's Republic of Kali. I've heard from him that his rifle is in running order, no problems. We thought the round was a squib, but he said it cleared the barrel. It seems we had one bad round with a weak base.

Very interesting points brought up by all of you. Thanks from an old wheel gunner, I learned a lot. Looking forward to having some fun learning to shoot my new rifle.
 
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