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  #1  
Old 06-29-2020, 08:35 PM
DickE DickE is offline
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Bore cleaning question

I bought a pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in .220 Swift from a friend a couple of years ago. The rifle is like new and I know my friend took excellent care of it. The 26" barrel is stainless steel. The first time I took it to the range I checked the bore to be sure it was clean and it appeared to be bright and clean. But, just to be sure I gave it a good scrubbing. No matter what I do it seems impossible to get a clean patch even after 15 or 20 scrubbings with several bore cleaners, a tight brass bore brush and many cotton patches. I've been cleaning guns my whole life and never had this occur. Am I missing something or is the stainless barrel just hard to clean. I have fired only 100 rounds through the barrel using my reloads that are not "hot" in .220 swift terms. I was shooting 50 grain bullets at about 3,500 F/S.

Any suggestions?
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2020, 08:49 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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What color is the dirty patch and what solution are you using for solvent?

Smiles,
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2020, 09:42 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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A pre 64 model 70 Winchester with a stainless barrel.

I do not think so. .220 Swift was and is a great round with a well deserved reputation as a barrel eater. Your rifle has been rebarrelled at least once. And hopefully the barrel that it wears now is not just shot out. What you are telling us about what you are seeing when attempting to clean it does not inspire confidence.

But if you are using a good bore cleaner. Hoppes, or some other quality product it should eventually come clean. Keep working on it until you see clean patches. At some point that is bound to happen. Then shoot some rounds out of it and you will see what you have.

What kind of accuracy indications are you seeing from the rounds that you have already fired out of the gun?
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:03 PM
dfariswheel dfariswheel is offline
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There are several options.
One thing to be aware of, bore brushes will appear to to be fouling since they leave a thin layer of copper when run through a bore. Often this is mistaken for fouling.......

One option is to buy some JB Bore Paste and Kroil from Brownell's.
This is a super fine abrasive that was discovered by bench rest shooters and will not harm the bore if used correctly.
This will clean the bore and polish it as well as is possible.
Brownell's is out of Kroil right now but you can buy it from other online sources.
I's not absolutely necessary to use the Kroil.
No matter how fouled a bore is, the JB Paste WILL clean it as well as it's possible to clean.

https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleani...-prod1160.aspx

The second good option is to allow chemicals to clean the barrel without constantly running a brush, patch and rod down the bore.
This method is simple.... Just buy a good bore solvent and run a wet patch down the bore.
Allow to soak about 20 to 30 minutes and run another wet patch through.
Don't "pump" a patch up and down the bore, this does little good.

Continue this until patches come out clean.
NOTE: Use an aluminum, plastic, or nickel plated jag so you don't get false-positive stains that look like copper fouling.
This method work very well because instead of using mechanical cleaning methods you're allowing chemicals to do the work.
They just need soak time to function.

NOTE: READ THE SOLVENT LABEL.
Some bore solvents can damage carbon steel barrels and might even harm stainless.
Note too that some solvents are best at dissolving carbon and powder fouling and some are better at removing copper fouling.
Choose the right solvent or start out with a powder-carbon solvent then finish with a copper solvent.
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  #5  
Old 06-30-2020, 04:12 PM
bullet45acp bullet45acp is offline
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I have found that I have dirty brushes - use a clean brush
run a few patches through that are wet with gun scrubber...

I find gun scrubber is the stuff.
As overheard in a gun shop one evening "Hell with gun scrubber even a woman can get a gun clean"
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  #6  
Old 06-30-2020, 06:28 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Where's the OP?

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  #7  
Old 06-30-2020, 08:06 PM
Deyomatic Deyomatic is offline
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I am no expert so don't take MY word, and I realize it's a Pre-64, but if I knew for sure it was not the original barrel I'd be tempted to blast some brake cleaner down the barrel to blow everything out.
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  #8  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:40 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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I am with you on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deyomatic View Post
I am no expert so don't take MY word, and I realize it's a Pre-64, but if I knew for sure it was not the original barrel I'd be tempted to blast some brake cleaner down the barrel to blow everything out.
If it will not come clean with what you are doing, then change the plan.
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  #9  
Old 06-30-2020, 09:49 PM
Autonomous Autonomous is offline
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Make damn sure the brake cleaner is non-chlorinated if you go that route.
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  #10  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:02 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Brake cleaner??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deyomatic View Post
I am no expert so don't take MY word, and I realize it's a Pre-64, but if I knew for sure it was not the original barrel I'd be tempted to blast some brake cleaner down the barrel to blow everything out.
Before using any "cleaning" products on firearms be sure to look at the MSDS information to be sure you know what's in it!

Brake cleaner doesn't have anything in it that will dissolve copper fouling. But it will flush out greasy-oily "smuts" if that's in there!

There are some parts cleaners that may be so acidic that it will damage bluing or etch S/S or worse!

Smiles,
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  #11  
Old 06-30-2020, 10:27 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Probably not much bluing inside of the barrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfitch View Post
Before using any "cleaning" products on firearms be sure to look at the MSDS information to be sure you know what's in it!

Brake cleaner doesn't have anything in it that will dissolve copper fouling. But it will flush out greasy-oily "smuts" if that's in there!

There are some parts cleaners that may be so acidic that it will damage bluing or etch S/S or worse!

Smiles,
And enough sent down a stainless barrel to blow all of the gunk out of it. Is not likely to cause much in the way of collateral damage. As long as it is flushed out with something else a little milder.

Still waiting to hear some feedback from the original poster about accuracy from the rounds already fired out of the gun. .220 swift, my guess is that the barrel may still have some life left in it, or more likely having been replaced already. Given what the OP has posted to date is FUBAR.
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  #12  
Old 07-01-2020, 08:19 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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How does it shoot? Maybe its clean enough.
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  #13  
Old 07-01-2020, 08:27 AM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Balistol has a proprietary cleaning agent and will gradually clean the bore. Also balistol has mineral spirits oil and is good for wood and bluing.
Flitz new product the is non volatile fumes and advertised as eco friendly will remove lead and copper fouling with out scrubbing with a brush. Just run through on cotton clothes . Be sure to keep off any blue surface. After done with the flitz use ballistol.
Never use acetone brake cleaner car products or any other finfirearm products on any gun you care to keep nice looking.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 07-01-2020 at 01:18 PM.
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  #14  
Old 07-01-2020, 11:54 AM
DickE DickE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USMM guy View Post
And enough sent down a stainless barrel to blow all of the gunk out of it. Is not likely to cause much in the way of collateral damage. As long as it is flushed out with something else a little milder.

Still waiting to hear some feedback from the original poster about accuracy from the rounds already fired out of the gun. .220 swift, my guess is that the barrel may still have some life left in it, or more likely having been replaced already. Given what the OP has posted to date is FUBAR.
The barrel is original. I know the original owner very well. He shot the rifle sparingly. The rifling is sharp. I am convinced that barrel wear is not a problem. The one time I took it to the range it shot into about 2 inches at 100 meters. This was with my first attempt at reloading this caliber. I am sure it will be more accurate once I develop hand loads the rifle likes. My question is exclusively about bore cleaning.
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  #15  
Old 07-01-2020, 12:30 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Whether it is the right answer for you or not, this Schuemann barrel cleaning article is always interesting reading.

http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/D...l_Cleaning.pdf

The last paragraph in the article

Quote:
My Personal Practice has become to never clean the bore of my barrels. I do use a brass rod to scrape the deposits out of the chamber. But, I've learned to leave the bore alone and it very slowly becomes shinier and cleaner all by itself. Years ago I occasionally scrubbed the bore with a brass bore brush. But, doing so always seemed to cause the bore to revert to a dirtier look with more shooting, so I eventually stopped ever putting anything down the bore except bullets...
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  #16  
Old 07-01-2020, 01:10 PM
19ontheslide 19ontheslide is offline
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If your rifle is indeed a true pre-64 Model 70 and has an original stainless barrel....I would love to see pictures of it.
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  #17  
Old 07-01-2020, 01:18 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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As it turns out, you are probably right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DickE View Post
The barrel is original. I know the original owner very well. He shot the rifle sparingly. The rifling is sharp. I am convinced that barrel wear is not a problem. The one time I took it to the range it shot into about 2 inches at 100 meters. This was with my first attempt at reloading this caliber. I am sure it will be more accurate once I develop hand loads the rifle likes. My question is exclusively about bore cleaning.
In that it is the original barrel, especially considering that you know the original owner. I was pretty sure that Winchester did not make them pre 64 with stainless barrels. As it turns out you could order them that way, my bad.

Well that is all to the good especially as your accuracy looks decent also. Play around with some different loads and you should be able to tighten up your groups even more. As to your cleaning it. I would suggest that you try some Kano Kroil from http://www.kanolabs.com/. It is what I use. And it should make that bore come clean.

It is not a solvent but a penetrating oil, works like a charm.
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  #18  
Old 07-01-2020, 02:36 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Kroil is magic. Good stuff.

Add in VFG cleaning pellets and some occasional JB bore paste and it is easy to keep barrels clean.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:41 PM
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Tom Freeman Tom Freeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtq View Post
Whether it is the right answer for you or not, this Schuemann barrel cleaning article is always interesting reading.

http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/D...l_Cleaning.pdf

The last paragraph in the article
Keep in mind Schuemann used to make pistol barrels. I dont even know if they are in business anymore.

The guys that really care about accuracy are benchrest shooters. They clean often. They also use coated rods and bore guides so they dont damage anything by improperly cleaning.

I had a pre-64 220 Swift. With or without moly or HBN coated bullets, it fouled with carbon pretty bad and accuracy dropped off after 50-75 rounds.
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Old 07-01-2020, 02:57 PM
jtq jtq is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Freeman View Post
Keep in mind Schuemann used to make pistol barrels.
True, but in the article, all the information that prompted his theory seems to come from precision rifle shooters. However, I have no experience in the area and just presenting a data point.
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  #21  
Old 07-01-2020, 04:25 PM
VetPsychWars VetPsychWars is offline
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I've seen a lot of advice to never clean a .22LR barrel because of greater chance of damaging it than cleaning it. Of course you have more pressure and greater velocity in your barrel.

You likely have little fouling. A patch in a loop is probably all you need, and clean from the breech to the muzzle, one pass, push out the muzzle and unscrew the loop so you don't dent the crown. Plastic loop is probably fine to leave in.

If you MUST scrub it, use a nylon brush. No purpose any more in a bronze or steel brush, they're just not necessary any more. Same thing, push it from breech to muzzle, and unscrew to remove the rod.

If you've been yanking brushes and patch loops and goddess-knows-what back in through the muzzle, you've already screwed up the crown and get it recrowned.

Tom, former service rifle match shooter, trained by Jim Owens (get his care and cleaning books)
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2020, 06:23 PM
markm markm is offline
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In my experience even if you have a perfectly clean bore and you run a bronze brush through it followed by a patch it will come out dirty.
I usually only use a brush after letting is soak once, unless if after you run wet and dry patches it still shows carbon, then I might brush again. One exception to this is sometimes if you remove copper you might start getting carbon again.
I once got a Garand from a friend that passed and I don't know how he cleaned it or if he even did. Took me like five passes removing copper then carbon.
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  #23  
Old 07-01-2020, 08:42 PM
jjfitch jjfitch is offline
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Rope style pull through "cleaning"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by VetPsychWars View Post
I've seen a lot of advice to never clean a .22LR barrel because of greater chance of damaging it than cleaning it. Of course you have more pressure and greater velocity in your barrel.

You likely have little fouling. A patch in a loop is probably all you need, and clean from the breech to the muzzle, one pass, push out the muzzle and unscrew the loop so you don't dent the crown. Plastic loop is probably fine to leave in.

If you MUST scrub it, use a nylon brush. No purpose any more in a bronze or steel brush, they're just not necessary any more. Same thing, push it from breech to muzzle, and unscrew to remove the rod.

If you've been yanking brushes and patch loops and goddess-knows-what back in through the muzzle, you've already screwed up the crown and get it recrowned.

Tom, former service rifle match shooter, trained by Jim Owens (get his care and cleaning books)
Any thoughts regarding "rope style" pull through cleaning rifle barrels?

I use this style and regular kerosene for general/regular cleaning rifles and handguns.

Smiles,
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2020, 10:24 PM
markm markm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VetPsychWars View Post
If you MUST scrub it, use a nylon brush. No purpose any more in a bronze or steel brush, they're just not necessary any more. Same thing, push it from breech to muzzle, and unscrew to remove the rod.
I tried nylon brushes, they were completely worthless, well the .22 ones work ok for cleaning extractor tunnel.
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