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  #1  
Old 06-21-2020, 12:36 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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How far does Hunting take you?

When it comes to personal defense do hunters have any edge? What do you think?
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  #2  
Old 06-21-2020, 01:03 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
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Any kind of practice with a firearm.

Hunting or otherwise. It is bound to give you some kind of edge. Target discipline for game at any range with a rifle. Even sporting clays for dexterity is bound to give you some benefit, hand eye coordination and the like.
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  #3  
Old 06-21-2020, 02:03 PM
magazineman magazineman is offline
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Sure. It beats no practice.

But I think by it's nature it's better training for offense than defense. For sneaky stalking type stuff.
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  #4  
Old 06-21-2020, 03:29 PM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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There are many ways to gain proficiency with a firearm, but the taking of a life, be it four legged or two, may be in favor of the hunter who has experienced the taking of a life.
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  #5  
Old 06-21-2020, 03:56 PM
SC shooter SC shooter is offline
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I think it depends on the situation; in the dead of night somebody breaks in then I am going to be extremely quiet, move slow and use cover and concealment just like hunting.
A parking lot confrontation where everything happens in a matter of seconds it is probably not as useful other that being more familiar with firearms although it could give you an advantage in being more aware of your surroundings because good hunters are watching and listening to everything going on around them in the woods. If you take that situational awareness from the woods to the street that would be a definite plus.
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Old 06-21-2020, 04:19 PM
combat auto combat auto is online now
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It will add to your skill set, BUT, I don't think it is the most efficient (actually, likely not efficient at all, but still "OK") way to train for SD skills gains...Efficiency here means Direct Benefit to SD scenarios vs time spent to get the benefit.

That said, the Great Jim Carrillo, possibly the best gun-fighter of my generation always said when looking at a candidate for their gun-fighting-squad, they did a lot of i actulaly fighting and killing sb's in NYC, they gave extra points to those who hunted. They felt they could count on these folks more when it came to taking a human life without hesitation. I have no idea if this is statistically correct, but I do give a lot of respect to Jim, he was a no BS type of guy.

Also, IMO, I think if someone hunts like tigers (illegal) and other very DANGEROUS game, say with a bow and arrow, perhaps that may add some value to SD as your body is getting use to "danger". Especially if the animal is charging....

But blowing away most wild animals at 100+y with a high-power rifle, meh, I see that more as target practice for accuracy "functionally" rather then SD, yes trigger time always = good, but beyond that not much SD skills building for the vast majority of civilian SD scenarios...Certainly general survival skills though.

(Personal opinion, I don't condone any hunting of endangered species...And those that aren't enraged, if you don't eat it or donate to those who do, it is a sin in the eyes of the Lord, IMO. (Of course, killing an animal when no choice to save a human life is another matter altogether)).
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Last edited by combat auto; 06-21-2020 at 04:29 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-21-2020, 07:11 PM
Levian Levian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magazineman View Post
Sure. It beats no practice.

But I think by it's nature it's better training for offense than defense. For sneaky stalking type stuff.
This. Stalking and ambushing game is a slightly different skill set. It might be applicable for home defense as SC said, but your standard pistol self defense application unfolds differently than most any hunting experience I've been in. So I'd say it requires a different set of skills to pull through.

To foil off what combat auto said, perhaps it might give one an edge in terms of follow through. A hunter knows what it's like to make something dead, and is might be less likely to hesitate. Maybe. I joke about people being two legged varmints, but I do value most of them higher than I do a coyote.

Now dangerous game hunters, those guys are a breed apart. You have to have ice water flowing through your veins to stand down a charging predator and pick off an accurate shot that drops it before it drops you.
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Old 06-21-2020, 07:23 PM
Ingramite Ingramite is offline
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Hunting deer from a blind over a feeder. Not really romantic or stealthy.

I suppose I can draw a parallel though.

I would have to bait my driveway by leaving the keys in the ignition. Maybe even leave the headlights on so you could see all of our valuables strategically placed for a clean shot from my second story bedroom window.

I don't think this dog would hunt down at the courthouse though.
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  #9  
Old 06-21-2020, 07:45 PM
Buzz45 Buzz45 is offline
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I don't think hunters have an advantage over those that are actively training for self defense. Most hunters on average, don't shoot that many rounds in a season and probably don't spend much time at a range other than sighting in their rifles. Of course there are those that do both, but I don't think being a hunter adds much to the equation when it comes to self defense.
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  #10  
Old 06-21-2020, 07:52 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is online now
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Not far. The average hunter isn’t much different from the average gun owner in general. Not very well trained, not all that prepared, and they don’t do it nearly enough to be of benefit.
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  #11  
Old 06-21-2020, 08:01 PM
f1racefan f1racefan is offline
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When the deer start attacking or shooting back, that would probably be more real life.
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  #12  
Old 06-21-2020, 08:19 PM
longarm longarm is offline
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Pistols are defensive, Rifles [longarms] are offensive - just ask Cooper.

Everything else is learning to use them, and practice.
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  #13  
Old 06-21-2020, 09:40 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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My opinion:
First cold shot hit on a small game hunting with no dog , thus need to be more observant and guick yo fire . The hunter has the better experience. Also do not walk around with the gun up and on sight, so need to be more dexterious.

Hitting moving targets live game and must make that first shot hit otherwise the game is long gone. I am referring to .22lr or shotgun hunting. Not deer.
Target shooters (paper target for score) take too long aiming before the shot compared to hunting. Even clay / trap shooters know the trajectory and have their shotgun raised. Hunters do not go walking the field with the shotgun in position .
Try stalking pheasants without a dog. Then make the first and likely only shot. Also need to be aware of where the game is.

SD training courses in my opinion
are very skimpy on actually teaching the student how to grip and trigger control to be able to make that first cold shot hit. Usally assume the student already knows that or have taken the personal initiative to hone that skill.

This is my opinion from years of experience and being around all types of shooting.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 06-22-2020 at 06:18 AM.
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  #14  
Old 06-22-2020, 01:36 AM
OldRed OldRed is offline
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Shooting fast moving game trains you to the point you don't ever think of puling the trigger. When the sight picture is right you fire the gun. Pain ball and air soft with enough money on the line might work as well or better, but the bets would have to be big enough it hurts to loose and and handicapped so you have a chance to win.

Coming up over pond dams with a 12 gauge double barreled shotgun after geese with 3 inch magnum BB's will teach you to find a stable shooting position when you fire both barrels at one time. It also make you realize that the kick and muzzle blast from a 357 Magnum with 3 inch barrel is not nearly as bad as I thought it was.

I think 8 years of walking up Jack Rabbits and learning to kill then on the run with a Single shot 22 then graduating to a Remington 241 Speedmaster that only shot 22 shorts is about as good as I could do in the 1950's. It wasn't as good as my grandmother who started hunting Prairie Chickens for the when she was 8 old years in the 1890's. What you eat for your next meal depending on what you catch or kill makes you a better hunter or fisherman.

Adding a scope on Remington 6mm made shooting running coyotes at 400 yards easier than Jack rabbits at 100 yards with shorts.
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  #15  
Old 06-23-2020, 04:47 PM
HarryO45 HarryO45 is offline
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I think hunting can take you a long way in a fight. Lots of reasons, but I will start with:

It teaches you when to shoot, and often when not to shoot. It is a skill that is learned from the many trophies you have taken. The hunter is shooting an unpredictable three dimensional target, and it is much different than any inanimate object. It is the first shot that matters, no warm up shots, and the hunter will be measured on so many levels. The stakes are higher (pun intended), you learn to control your body.

Your game is moving between trees, you pick your spot, but the ground slope is different, he is much lower than expected your aim is too high, you hold your fire, you find the next opening, but he has changed the pace...this distracts your rhythm, but you have learned to expect this. You fight tunnel vision, because lots of things can still go wrong. You gotta be safe, effficient, and of course you will be still looking for that better target. By this time, your position is akward, but you are still tracking the target, you wish you had time to reposition your body. You know this opportunity is a about to pass forever, you have a split second to make the shot. Time and space. A mental “all go”.

It was at that moment, a million decisions points were complete. The fundamentals of shooting took over, only a millisecond of complete focus on the target. The experienced hunter has prepared and killed enough to know he made the right decision. He has aimed through the target, through the vitals, the angle was right. He had evaluated the clear shot, he knows an unseen branch can deflect a bullet from its pass through. Too late for a do over. Your weapon worked correctly because you knew it would, no alibi. You are responsible for your actions. Was it well placed? You are lucky to see the hit and he reacted like it was good, but you have the experience to know that in the matters of bullets mixed with flesh and bone - you never really know for sure. You have already reloaded, that was second nature, you know a second shot is unlikely, but you are ready. You evaluate, you are ready to make another quick decision.

Hunting is nothing like shooting at paper, a moving action shooting array / or those steel reactive targets, the angles have to be right. The wound channel matters.

You learn from every kill. Each time is different. Each time has valuable lessons. I believe that an experienced hunter, with good marksmanship skills, is much more likely to make a kill shot than even the best distinguished marksman with no experience of taking life.

I will go on to tell you, that the more game you take the better your chances are to kill. The percentages go up with experience.

Last edited by HarryO45; 06-23-2020 at 07:38 PM.
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  #16  
Old 06-23-2020, 05:03 PM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Hunters develop marksmanship skill with relatively few shots. Because the motivation to get the first cold shot is to be successful in bagging the game. So if making a miss reflect on what you need to improve. Practice some dry fires. This applies to any type of hunting.
What I never did or saw any other hunters do was shoot massive amounts of ammo at the range and develop muscle memory (memorization).
Closest we did was some fun plinking with a .22.
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  #17  
Old 06-23-2020, 05:25 PM
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RickB RickB is offline
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The willingness and ability to kill.
I haven't killed anything since I shot a squirrel, 50 years ago.
I'd like to think that necessity would overcome any sense of "I can't kill", but never having been in that situation, don't know.
I do remember some kid on the bus giving my wife a little jazz, and my thinking I could get my leg over the back of the bus seat and smash his head against the window . . . maybe I shouldn't be concerned.
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2020, 06:25 PM
DubfromGa DubfromGa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
When it comes to personal defense do hunters have any edge? What do you think?
I'll not argue about having an edge or get wrapped around the axle over the matter, but I do think that long-term hunters have over the average person.




Patience.

Planning.

Stealth.

Decisiveness.

Understanding ballistics & optimizing them for the game chosen.

Making kill shots & owning the responsibility for the outcome...clean kill or tracking & recovering, use of the meat.

Ongoing practice at the range.

Maintaining physical shape.
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Old 06-23-2020, 06:49 PM
longarm longarm is offline
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I'd agree
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Old 06-24-2020, 04:12 PM
buck460XVR buck460XVR is offline
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Coupla advantages other than real life experience with hitting a moving target. One, shooting under stress and after exertion. Part of hunting is controlling your nerves and excitement. While one can practice at paper for either, shooting something alive and moving, sometimes looking right at you, is something you can't practice till it happens. Leaning how to handle the stress of waiting for that ten pointer to walk 20 yards and turn broadside is harder than one thinks. Same goes for when that rooster pheasant flushes at your feet after a long day of seeing nuttin'. Experienced hunters having dealt with those situations handle them much better. Seems only natural that under the duress of a confrontation where one may have to decide whether or not to use deadly force would be easier for someone that is used to handling stress/adrenaline with a gun in their hand. Speaking of having a gun in your hand, hunting means spending many hours with a gun in your hand, to the point it almost becomes an extension of you. Something just going to the range and shooting a box of shells every month never really drums home. That same familiarity of handling a gun for hours at end helps with gun handling safety and muzzle control too, as opposed to just taking the gun out of the case and keeping the muzzle downrange at the bench.

What it comes down to, the more you practice, the better you get. The more confident you become and the more comfortable you feel. The more scenarios with a multitude of platforms you experience, can only help. Not to say non-hunters can't become proficient at SD/HD. But dedicated SD training is not convenient, nor even possible for many that live within the confines of a large city. When in the field, you are getting experience every minute you are out there.

Hunting also teaches one stealth and enhances observation skills. Makes so one is always aware of what is going on around them. Like looking ahead in the forest for the best path to take, keeping your eyes focused far ahead in the street may mean you see trouble coming before it's on top of you.

JMHO.
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Last edited by buck460XVR; 06-24-2020 at 04:18 PM.
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  #21  
Old 06-25-2020, 09:14 PM
DubfromGa DubfromGa is offline
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Originally Posted by HarryO45 View Post
I think hunting can take you a long way in a fight. Lots of reasons, but I will start with:

It teaches you when to shoot, and often when not to shoot. It is a skill that is learned from the many trophies you have taken. The hunter is shooting an unpredictable three dimensional target, and it is much different than any inanimate object. It is the first shot that matters, no warm up shots, and the hunter will be measured on so many levels. The stakes are higher (pun intended), you learn to control your body.

Your game is moving between trees, you pick your spot, but the ground slope is different, he is much lower than expected your aim is too high, you hold your fire, you find the next opening, but he has changed the pace...this distracts your rhythm, but you have learned to expect this. You fight tunnel vision, because lots of things can still go wrong. You gotta be safe, effficient, and of course you will be still looking for that better target. By this time, your position is akward, but you are still tracking the target, you wish you had time to reposition your body. You know this opportunity is a about to pass forever, you have a split second to make the shot. Time and space. A mental “all go”.

It was at that moment, a million decisions points were complete. The fundamentals of shooting took over, only a millisecond of complete focus on the target. The experienced hunter has prepared and killed enough to know he made the right decision. He has aimed through the target, through the vitals, the angle was right. He had evaluated the clear shot, he knows an unseen branch can deflect a bullet from its pass through. Too late for a do over. Your weapon worked correctly because you knew it would, no alibi. You are responsible for your actions. Was it well placed? You are lucky to see the hit and he reacted like it was good, but you have the experience to know that in the matters of bullets mixed with flesh and bone - you never really know for sure. You have already reloaded, that was second nature, you know a second shot is unlikely, but you are ready. You evaluate, you are ready to make another quick decision.

Hunting is nothing like shooting at paper, a moving action shooting array / or those steel reactive targets, the angles have to be right. The wound channel matters.

You learn from every kill. Each time is different. Each time has valuable lessons. I believe that an experienced hunter, with good marksmanship skills, is much more likely to make a kill shot than even the best distinguished marksman with no experience of taking life.

I will go on to tell you, that the more game you take the better your chances are to kill. The percentages go up with experience.

Excellent points. Very well stated.
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  #22  
Old 06-26-2020, 01:02 AM
johnireland johnireland is offline
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The hunter is a sniper...his target doesn't know he is there and won't be shooting back. That is very different than being surrounded by a mob breaking into your business and setting it on fire. Or having three or four thugs come crashing through the front door of you home and pistol whipping your wife and children. That takes close quarter combat discipline and training.
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  #23  
Old 06-26-2020, 06:52 AM
M-Peltier M-Peltier is offline
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Originally Posted by johnireland View Post
The hunter is a sniper...his target doesn't know he is there and won't be shooting back. That is very different than being surrounded by a mob breaking into your business and setting it on fire. Or having three or four thugs come crashing through the front door of you home and pistol whipping your wife and children. That takes close quarter combat discipline and training.
If lets say, you have two individuals, both equally trained in close quarters combat. One with no previous field experience. The other is a seasoned hunter who has harvested many animals and has had plenty of blood on his hands skinning and field dressing. You do not feel the hunter would have an edge if thugs came crashing through the front door?
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  #24  
Old 06-26-2020, 07:02 AM
DubfromGa DubfromGa is offline
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Originally Posted by M-Peltier View Post
If lets say, you have two individuals, both equally trained in close quarters combat. One with no previous field experience. The other is a seasoned hunter who has harvested many animals and has had plenty of blood on his hands skinning and field dressing. You do not feel the hunter would have an edge if thugs came crashing through the front door?
If "harvesting" is the same as thing as killing.....yep...my money goes on the hunter every time.




I may be interpreting things incorrectly, but the initial post had me thinking of two gun owners faced with the modern social problems and random violence that agitators are engaged in.

First gun owner is someone who either just bought one or had one stashed away for "just in case.


Second gun owner is a hunter who made decisions and acted on them to kill gam over the years. Not trying to compare game to criminals, but the hunter has proven resolve and ongoing firearm experience.


Again, I may have misinterpreted, but I'll take a hunter vs some guy infatuated with tacticool who's seen John Wick 17 times.
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Old 06-26-2020, 10:04 AM
OttoLoader OttoLoader is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnireland View Post
The hunter is a sniper...his target doesn't know he is there and won't be shooting back. That is very different than being surrounded by a mob breaking into your business and setting it on fire. Or having three or four thugs come crashing through the front door of you home and pistol whipping your wife and children. That takes close quarter combat discipline and training.
The question is how far does hunting take you.
Starting or beginners who have successfully learned how to make the first cold shot on live game have a major advantage because the hunter has a shooting skill most non hunters ever get.

My observation is training courses do not teach that key foundational skill.

Take a casual look at all those targets that have hits left and or low if a right handed shooter.
A small game hunter would not be successful at the level of skill.

Last edited by OttoLoader; 06-26-2020 at 10:12 AM.
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