1939 Colt Navy - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-18-2017, 08:46 PM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
1939 Colt Navy

I am humbly seeking guidance on a 1939 Colt Navy that was part of my fathers collection. I have tried to educate myself on these historical pistols and quite frankly, the more I learn the more I find myself asking questions. I think the serial number range for the 1939 Navy was 713646-717281. This Pistols number is 713733. My confusion comes when I try to verify the proper markings or stamps on the inside of the frame. Everything I can find on the 1939 shows an oval stamp with an R in the middle to the right of the disconnector port. This pistol has a square with the letters R S in the middle with an oval under the square and a G directly under the port. The rest of the markings are consistent with the markings of later production models. I would appreciate anyone who could share their knowledge on why and what the difference could be with this pistol.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-18-2017, 10:06 PM
abtex1 abtex1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 164
Can you post a picture? I just looked at my 1939, a 716xxx example. It has the G and the R in the oval. Similarly, I looked at specimens on Scott G's site and they are consistent with mine. RS in a 'box' is consistent with 1941 production. 1940 production largely has the G with CSR.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-19-2017, 08:45 AM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
pics

[attach]Click image for larger version

Name:	19112.jpg
Views:	462
Size:	1.78 MB
ID:	372089[/attach]
Attached Thumbnails
1911.jpg  
Reply With Quote
 
  #4  
Old 06-19-2017, 09:02 AM
Steve1987 Steve1987 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 500
Hi,

Sorry but the gun is a fake with pantographed serial number.

Regards,
-Steve
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:09 AM
Mikecp Mikecp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Geneva / Switzerland
Posts: 193
Right, Its a fake!
From time to time, as well in my country & Europe there are an increase of fakes, Colt, US&S...
Here are "the good and the bad"


Last edited by Mikecp; 06-19-2017 at 10:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:09 AM
USMM guy USMM guy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Rural VA
Posts: 15,131
Yep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1987 View Post
Hi,

Sorry but the gun is a fake with pantographed serial number.

Regards,
-Steve
It sure is.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-19-2017, 10:16 AM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
Thanks,
Steve can they pantograph all the markings on a gun? Are there any other clues to look for other then the serial number? Sorry for my Ignorance but like I said earlier, the more I learn the more questions I have. Can they Pantograph all the serial numbers? I appreciate your input. My father has so many 1911's I dont know where to start. Whats real, whats fake? kinda of disheartening.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-19-2017, 11:07 AM
walksoftly walksoftly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Posts: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTony View Post
. . . . . Can they Pantograph all the serial numbers? . . . . . .
Is there a serial number on the slide underneath the firing pin stop?

Knowing that will determine if the pistol is a "complete" fake or someone just tried to counterfeit a frame to match a Navy slide.
__________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride! - Hunter S. Thompson- .Happy the man and happy he alone, He who can call today his own. He who secure within can say, Tomorrow, do thy worst for I have lived today - John Dryden -
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-19-2017, 11:29 AM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
I will pull it apart when I get home and check. So much appreciate the guidance everyone has offered. Figured I would start eating this elephant one bit at a time. hope everyone had a great Fathers Day...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-19-2017, 11:31 AM
vette vette is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Western NC and My piece of WY heaven
Posts: 3,026
I have seen several such fakes at gun shows in the south. Somebody is doing it so buyer beware.

Last edited by vette; 06-19-2017 at 05:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-19-2017, 11:51 AM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
I Cant say for sure where he picked it up. But he loved going to gun shows in Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, and South Carolina which is where we live. Now I'm obviously worried about all his guns. Might lean on you guys on a couple more in the near future. Thanks again for the help.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-19-2017, 12:01 PM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 58,478
It's impossible to say for sure without seeing pictures of the entire pistol, but the "M1911A1 US ARMY" doesn't appear fake so it's possible it's a USGI receiver that once had the USP and serial number filed off, and later replaced with the current fake markings. However the fact that fake internal inspectors' marks were also added means that somebody was trying to fool others. Unfortunately a receiver with an altered, or obliterated original serial number is technically illegal to possess. Not trying to scare you, as the odds of anyone ever finding out let alone giving a damn are slight, but I had to throw that out anyway there just so that you know.
__________________
Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-19-2017, 12:19 PM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
I will pull the gun apart tonight and post all the photos of the serial numbers and the markings so you guys can give me your best advise as to what I should do with this gun. If this gun is a fake someone took advantage of the old Master Chief SSBN 625 who loved his Navy. I just want to make sure it never hits the market again if indeed it is a fake. I will pull it apart and donate the usable parts and destroy the fake ones.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:14 PM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
[attach]Click image for larger version

Name:	19114.jpg
Views:	261
Size:	3.32 MB
ID:	372137[/attach]
Attached Thumbnails
19113.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-19-2017, 01:15 PM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
dsk these are the only other photos of the pistol I have available right now.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-19-2017, 04:56 PM
BadMoose BadMoose is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: WI
Age: 55
Posts: 18
Is it possible he knew what he was getting and just wanted a replica so to speak?

Personally I would keep it, Stamp the inside top of the frame "REPLICA", and shoot it, or stamp it and sell it to me, I'll shoot it.

I love the older 1911s, loaned mine to my Dad years ago, Long story short it was lost someplace in the Smoky Mountains.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:00 PM
1saxman 1saxman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,244
Its not a replica since its a real M1911A1. I don't know what you would call it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:38 PM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 58,478
Replica or not, the original serial number was removed and that's a huge no-no.
__________________
Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-20-2017, 09:45 AM
CaptTony CaptTony is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Charleston,SC
Posts: 20
dsk I checked the serial number on the slide behind the firing pin stop and it matches the frame. I will be sending pictures for you to look at. I also am sending pictures of all the markings on the barrel and the rest of the pistol. If this is indeed a fake I would like to share this with everyone so they can see for themselves the extent these crooks will go to rip you off. I would also like to know if anyone knows of an expert in the southeast I could trust to send this pistol to for verification. Again I want to thank everyone for their input on this pistol and if it is verified a fake it will never see the market again.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:57 AM
1saxman 1saxman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,244
Save your money and time - the serial number has been re-done, which makes it a questionable pistol even if it was the same number before. The matching slide doesn't prove anything even if its numbers are original - the frame may have been numbered to match the slide. There simply is no question about it and any honest 'expert' would be able to tell you the same thing for free by simply looking at the same pictures you posted here.
Any other markings on the frame are of no significance; the re-done serial number makes anything else on the receiver moot.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-20-2017, 10:59 AM
Rob Greer Rob Greer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North East
Posts: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTony View Post
...if it is verified a fake...
Sadly, this gun is exactly as described by the many members here. The serial number has been modified, and thus is considered contraband by the BATF. If you compare the serial number and USP markings on the photos posted by Mike, you can easily see the difference between real markings and the altered ones. (Compare the "1" in both serial numbers, and go on from there...)

You don't need to send this one out to confirm what is already known... We don't take any pleasure informing someone that their gun is not legit. Far too many times, the owner gets very upset. So, thank you so much for staying positive and taking the information in stride!!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:25 PM
dsk's Avatar
dsk dsk is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 58,478
The others are right, unfortunately. There's no question that the receiver at least has had a fake serial number applied.
__________________
Avoid the temptation to replace everything on your brand-new 1911 just to make it "better". Know what you're changing out and why. You may spend a lot of money fixing things that weren't broken to begin with. Shoot at least 500 rounds through it first, then decide what you don't like and want to improve. Regarding vintage 1911s, pre-1946 pistols are highly collectible in original, unaltered condition and should NEVER be refinished or modified as it completely ruins their monetary value.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-20-2017, 12:39 PM
LongColt LongColt is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: SoCal
Posts: 556
Here's another aspect on this:

Let's say, totally hypothetically, that Captain Tony elects to have the frame destroyed. Also hypothetically, lets say that the barrel, slide and all of the other parts are original 1939 vintage components.

What would the value be to someone who has a legit WWII era 1911A1 frame and wanted to build it up from those parts?

Just curious and wanting to learn...
__________________
NRA Patron Life
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-20-2017, 01:57 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florence, Alabama, USA
Posts: 18,238
The best possible face to put on it is in post 12. A "scrubbed" gun remarked with the serial number from the slide and the USP.
I have seen fakes here with much better quality pantograph markings, this is a fake and a cheap job at that.

A well known gunsmith showed a pistol with very sincere "National Match" marking applied by laser. The gun had a lot of stuff not found on a real NM so we may charitably assume it was done in good clean fun.
But my question is, can a laser faithfully copy a roll mark from the good old days when the crater around the stamp was leveled out?

Bill Adair said he would sand a rough or wavy gun and if the markings got faint, he would stop and redo them by hand engraving, then keep sanding. He said he might have to do that more than once to get down to flat smooth metal with good "roll" markings. He charged $50 to replace the USP. He didn't say anything about serial numbers for obvious legal reasons.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-20-2017, 03:17 PM
vette vette is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Western NC and My piece of WY heaven
Posts: 3,026
The other parts can be salvaged. No need to deep 6 every part.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:09 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved