Things that make you go huh! - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-26-2017, 06:03 PM
callum callum is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Indiana
Posts: 28
Things that make you go huh!

Does anyone bother with trimming 45 ACP brass. I often wonder about accuracy. I also wonder, is there any difference in quality between good American Brands and ok import stuff like PMC or SB
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-26-2017, 06:26 PM
TjB101 TjB101 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 786
So far I haven't seen a need to trim my 9, 38 or 357's ... they just don't seem to 'grow' like rifle brass does.
__________________
If at first your don't succeed, Reload
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-26-2017, 06:55 PM
rglassma rglassma is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 630
I have a trimmer, I have measured 45 brass. I am not shooting competition, just range shooting and I have never had a reason. I do not have a progressive press, and I have been just fine for the last 5 or 6 years.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 03-26-2017, 07:28 PM
larryf1952 larryf1952 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: KCMO
Posts: 808
I've been reloading since 1976, and I have never trimmed a semiauto round in any caliber. It has not been necessary. For revolvers, it's a different story.

PMC is good, high quality ammo. Although I rarely shoot factory ammo, the PMC that I have shot has all been good stuff; at least as good as Federal, Winchester or Remington. S&B has also been quality ammo in my experience. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot any familiar brand, brass cased ammo. I may be more hesitant to shoot some of the obscure, weird branded steel cased stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-26-2017, 09:04 PM
Slow bullet guy Slow bullet guy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,280
I wish I had a link. But I saw where a fella on this forum did a pretty thorough write up on how various case preparations effected accuracy with 45acp.

It appeared that trimming cases to a consistent length actually caused accuracy to degrade. Wish I could find it. I don't remember too many details.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-26-2017, 11:24 PM
RetiredRod's Avatar
RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 13,953
I don't trim 45acp cases. 99.99% of reloaders don't. Not necessary. Does not improve accuracy.

You ask about quality difference between American brands and imported stuff. I'm going to assume you mean brass 45acp cases, since this is a reloading sub-forum and no one here shoots factory ammo () I have not found any quality difference among all the brands of 45acp brass that I've encountered.....except AMERC, which is poor quality IMHO.
__________________


NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-2017, 12:00 AM
stillwater's Avatar
stillwater stillwater is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,968
Exactly.
__________________
"Rely not on the likelihood of the enemies not coming but on our own readiness to receive him" -SunTsu
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-27-2017, 09:24 PM
cw308 cw308 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Plainview LI NY
Posts: 369
I'm a rifle bench rest shooter, I trim my rifle brass to the same length every firing. 45auto is a different animal , thanks to the people in this forum steered me in the right direction. 99.9% of the brass never has to be trimmed, headspace is measured from the case mouth. I remove the bell to match the OD of the case with the seated bullet no more or less.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-28-2017, 10:46 AM
yeti yeti is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,949
I don't trim anything except rifle brass or maybe 44/357/38 (revolver brass batches do get checked & trimmed before initial reloading).

No trimming at all for pistol brass.
__________________

NRA Life Member
RSO
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-12-2017, 01:26 PM
callum callum is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Indiana
Posts: 28
Thanks you guy's.
A couple of thoughts. Since the case in a 1911, rests on the case mouth, overall length changes the headspace allowing the cartridge to blow back. Also if you cut a case to .888 (sometimes a lot) you have to be changing the pressure since the bullet is set to the same depth each round. I have been finding a lot of variation in brass casings.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-13-2017, 06:04 AM
DesmoAndrew DesmoAndrew is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 433
Only issue I find with varying case lengths is that the amount of belling can change a little as a result. I try to bell as little as possible to reduce working the brass so occasionally I have a fussy bullet seating on the press.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-13-2017, 07:53 AM
rglassma rglassma is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 630
I find that using consistent head stamps helps with consistency. I usually don't use tulammo brass and pretty much stick with big name stuff. That seems to be more effective than measuring and trimming. The more I stray in case stamps, the more the batch varies.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:10 AM
RetiredRod's Avatar
RetiredRod RetiredRod is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Springfield, Missouri
Posts: 13,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by callum View Post
Thanks you guy's.
A couple of thoughts. Since the case in a 1911, rests on the case mouth, overall length changes the headspace allowing the cartridge to blow back. Also if you cut a case to .888 (sometimes a lot) you have to be changing the pressure since the bullet is set to the same depth each round. I have been finding a lot of variation in brass casings.
You're not seeing this in the right way. The cartridge overall length is set by the dimension from the base of the case to the tip of the bullet. The case length has no bearing on OAL. A shorter or longer OAL for a given round just means the bullet is seated deeper or farther out. The dimension from the case mouth to the bullet tip can (and will) vary with varying OAL's.

Internal case volume (and subsequent internal combustion pressure) will vary with a given bullet size and seating depth (OAL). But, is independent of case length.
__________________


NRA Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-13-2017, 10:28 AM
Old Grumpy Old Grumpy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 4,410
I would think that IF you use the same brass (Headstamp) as shown in the reloading guide you choose to use and IF you use the OAL the guide lists, your pressures should be the same or very close to the same as the guide lists regardless of case length.

IF you use a different headstamp (brand of brass) but keep the OAL listed in the guide there should be a minimal difference in pressure. When speaking about .45acp loads, I doubt there will be a noticeable difference.

Just my $0.02
Grumpy
__________________
Molon labe!

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-13-2017, 02:23 PM
motosapiens motosapiens is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredRod View Post
I have not found any quality difference among all the brands of 45acp brass that I've encountered.....except AMERC, which is poor quality IMHO.
same here.

with 9 and 40, i am a bit more picky, and there are many brands like cbc, s&b, gfl that are a pain to reload (tight primer pockets, for example). But even those brands seem to work just fine in 45.

but not AMERC. throw away.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-13-2017, 02:51 PM
daimaru42 daimaru42 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 156
I'd check your case length ~once~. I ordered Armscor in .38 Super by mail, and bought it at Cabelas and the case length differed by about 1/8". Enough that I screwed up cases when crimping the longer ones. So I trimmed all of the longer ones to the shorter length and haven't touched them since.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:49 AM
Che Che is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California
Posts: 4,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryf1952 View Post
i've been reloading since 1976, and i have never trimmed a semiauto round in any caliber. It has not been necessary. For revolvers, it's a different story.

Pmc is good, high quality ammo. Although i rarely shoot factory ammo, the pmc that i have shot has all been good stuff; at least as good as federal, winchester or remington. S&b has also been quality ammo in my experience. I wouldn't be afraid to shoot any familiar brand, brass cased ammo. I may be more hesitant to shoot some of the obscure, weird branded steel cased stuff.
+1
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:53 AM
Che Che is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: California
Posts: 4,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by daimaru42 View Post
I'd check your case length ~once~. I ordered Armscor in .38 Super by mail, and bought it at Cabelas and the case length differed by about 1/8". Enough that I screwed up cases when crimping the longer ones. So I trimmed all of the longer ones to the shorter length and haven't touched them since.
I was reloading 44 Special and I do it in batches. I had once used WW brass and on the bench I had RP that had been used 10x. The RP got in with WW so the that was a bad run. Likely the case length was o.125 too long n the RP.

It would not make a difference if I loaded the RP separately.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-14-2017, 04:31 PM
Snapdragon Snapdragon is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brunswick County, NC
Posts: 3,054
I pitch AMERC but load about anything else. Some military primers are crimped and benefit from a little primer pocket grooming. You may experience tight primer pockets in several headstamps such as S&B, Winchester, Herters, and perhaps a few others. That can be cured quite easily with a little attention to the pockets.

I have never trimmed a 45 Auto case.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:45 PM
DG1 DG1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by callum View Post
Thanks you guy's.
A couple of thoughts. Since the case in a 1911, rests on the case mouth, overall length changes the headspace allowing the cartridge to blow back. Also if you cut a case to .888 (sometimes a lot) you have to be changing the pressure since the bullet is set to the same depth each round. I have been finding a lot of variation in brass casings.
Starline is absolutely amazing as far as consistency. In my opinion - It just doesn't get any better than them.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:05 PM
jeffjmr jeffjmr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 94
Not entirely scientific but I had to provide myself some data on brass length in .45ACP.

Spec is for a length not to exceed .898 in. I have spot checked over the years at least 100 new cases and loaded ammo of at least 8 different headstamps; the longest case I ever measured was .892, the shortest .878 and most are about .885 as was most of the several different factory rounds. Could these cases that are not headspacing on the case mouth as designed be affecting accuracy?

I don't have go no-go gauges but I made some out of .45 Win Mag. My Para Ordnance P-13 barrel barely closed on .920, which is right at max spec. My Colt 70 series Gold Cup was a bit better at .907. Both well over spec. No surprise there to assuage the lawyers. But that meant that most of my ammo was (.920-.885=) 35 thou short of headspacing on the case mouth. This is supposed to be bad for accuracy and extractor longevity.

So I took some of the Win Mag brass and loaded 10 rounds each with brass at .920 and another 10 with brass at .885. All other variables were as identical as I am capable of handloading. I used cannelured hollow point jacketed bullets and crimped into the cannelure. Of course that means the OAL and therefore the case capacity was different. (I told you not entirely scientific). I didn't care about velocity, just seeing if there was a gross difference in group size.

There was not. In fact while the group sizes were nearly identical, my friend and fellow shooter thought the group with the shorter brass was better in that it was roundish and the long brass group was more T shaped.

I have a bunch of Win Mag brass that I collected with the expectation that rounds headspacing properly on the case mouth would indeed be more accurate, but thus far have not been able to prove it, and I will do more testing.

As usual, YMMV.

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-15-2017, 09:18 AM
Nitro.45 Nitro.45 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredRod View Post
I don't trim 45acp cases. 99.99% of reloaders don't. Not necessary. Does not improve accuracy.

You ask about quality difference between American brands and imported stuff. I'm going to assume you mean brass 45acp cases, since this is a reloading sub-forum and no one here shoots factory ammo () I have not found any quality difference among all the brands of 45acp brass that I've encountered.....except AMERC, which is poor quality IMHO.
I think Rod is rolling his eyes at me cause I can't keep my mouth shut on the Ammo Can with continuous preaching about the virtues of reloading.

Anyway, no need to trim .45, ever! PMC is good stuff!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-18-2017, 01:11 PM
Top Cover Top Cover is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Eastern Idaho
Posts: 100
Browning Genius

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffjmr View Post
Not entirely scientific but I had to provide myself some data on brass length in .45ACP.

Spec is for a length not to exceed .898 in. I have spot checked over the years at least 100 new cases and loaded ammo of at least 8 different headstamps; the longest case I ever measured was .892, the shortest .878 and most are about .885 as was most of the several different factory rounds. Could these cases that are not headspacing on the case mouth as designed be affecting accuracy?

I don't have go no-go gauges but I made some out of .45 Win Mag. My Para Ordnance P-13 barrel barely closed on .920, which is right at max spec. My Colt 70 series Gold Cup was a bit better at .907. Both well over spec. No surprise there to assuage the lawyers. But that meant that most of my ammo was (.920-.885=) 35 thou short of headspacing on the case mouth. This is supposed to be bad for accuracy and extractor longevity.

So I took some of the Win Mag brass and loaded 10 rounds each with brass at .920 and another 10 with brass at .885. All other variables were as identical as I am capable of handloading. I used cannelured hollow point jacketed bullets and crimped into the cannelure. Of course that means the OAL and therefore the case capacity was different. (I told you not entirely scientific). I didn't care about velocity, just seeing if there was a gross difference in group size.

There was not. In fact while the group sizes were nearly identical, my friend and fellow shooter thought the group with the shorter brass was better in that it was roundish and the long brass group was more T shaped.

I have a bunch of Win Mag brass that I collected with the expectation that rounds headspacing properly on the case mouth would indeed be more accurate, but thus far have not been able to prove it, and I will do more testing.

As usual, YMMV.

Jeff
I think you guys are proving that J.M. Browning was truly inspired when he designed the 1911 and the 45 ACP cartridge. A gun design that if well made is both reliable and accurate, coupled with a cartridge, that while now the most powerful, is also dependable and accurate. With your foray into case length effects on accuracy you are proving that some things just don't matter when you have a good place to start from.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-18-2017, 02:14 PM
AZ Desertrat AZ Desertrat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,387
Never had the need to trim any semi auto brass. 9mm, .38 Super, .45ACP...even after 10 or more reloadings...just didn't grow long enough.
__________________
USCG Veteran
Semper Paratus
NRA Benefactor Member
Philippians 4:13
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-18-2017, 07:13 PM
EJC EJC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Connecticut
Age: 68
Posts: 495
I only reload handgun ammo - 45ACP, 380ACP and 9mm - I never trimmed any and I've had no issues.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:07 PM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved