we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts? - Page 2 - 1911Forum
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  #26  
Old 09-17-2018, 04:19 PM
JB6464 JB6464 is offline
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If capacity is the issue , I don't understand why they won't allow officer's to carry double stack 1911 45acp ?
Something like this :
https://www.remington.com/handguns/m...r-double-stack
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  #27  
Old 09-17-2018, 07:29 PM
numb numb is offline
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Firepower means hitting what you are shooting at.

There is not enough ammo that can be carried on a duty rig if you cant hit your opponent.
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  #28  
Old 09-17-2018, 08:23 PM
DNA9mm DNA9mm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB6464 View Post
If capacity is the issue , I don't understand why they won't allow officer's to carry double stack 1911 45acp ?
Something like this :
https://www.remington.com/handguns/m...r-double-stack
Some places are real particular about what's approved for carry. Like my dept, they're fan's of Colt/Springfield/Kimber, that's it. The Chief isn't too enamoured with the 1911 design (should just get a range master to hand him a 2011 and see what happens), but it's approved for carry as long as you can qual Expert and above, and take the 1911 transition course (cause you know, safeties and stuff).

All in all, IMO 1911 still have a place in LE. Albiet mostly with the gun guys of the department, the dudes that train extra, because we should, maintain our equipment, cause our lives may depend on it. Everyone else? Poly striker fired guns, they work, just like wheel guns, even when they're not maintained as properly as a 1911.

And quite honestly, bad guys seem to respect a 1911 toting copper. The hoods say it's something to do with... "that MFer spent his own money to get a gun that shoots better. You best believe he looking to shoot a MFer..."

Dan
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  #29  
Old 09-18-2018, 07:11 AM
Rwehavinfunyet Rwehavinfunyet is offline
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Using a 1911 for law enforcement.....

I think those that shoot a 1911 have the knowledge to get a good gun with a good trigger pull. I think the trigger pull of the 1911 can be made to be the best trigger pull on a handgun, which is why many top competitors from precision NRA Bullseye to various action pistol shooting games like and use some type of 1911 or 2011 gun do to the ability to get a superb trigger pull.


When I was hired as a Deputy Sheriff in the Orlando area, we did not have a choice of weapon, and were issued and required to carry a Glock, but we did have the choice of either 9mm, .40, or .45acp. I chose the Glock-21 .45acp.

Although I am not particularly fond of a the Glock trigger pull, I got used to it. I could still make good hits, but I would have preferred to carry my STI 2011 .40 gun, with a much better trigger pull and the ability to carry 14 +1 in the 126mm flush fit mags.....and two extra 140mm mags on my duty belt that hold 17 rounds each......
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  #30  
Old 09-18-2018, 09:36 AM
The War Wagon The War Wagon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocoGringo View Post
Tell that to all of the SWAT agencies that seem to keep using it.

Tell that to all the rural, small-town departments across the country. You may need to cobble a couple HUNDRED such depts. together, to equal one LAPD, but that's a LOTTA 1911's still on duty in the field.


I've seen small depts. from WV to TX - from OK to ND still using them. And there's probably still MANY more than that.
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  #31  
Old 09-18-2018, 06:44 PM
Huski92 Huski92 is online now
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Some guys in our city carry 1911ís. A few of them are the SWAT guys and a few are detectives. I have carried 1911ís in the military and felt that was fine. I also had an M16. I love the 1911 and I shoot it the best, but I shout my higher capacity guns well too. In uniform I would want a higher capacity that I could shoot well. Just my opinion.


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  #32  
Old 09-18-2018, 10:49 PM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
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While I love the reliability of the single stack 45, I'd never restrict myself to so few rounds of ammo these days.....
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  #33  
Old 09-19-2018, 01:46 AM
toofew1911s toofew1911s is offline
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Carrying cocked and locked was never considered a good idea for most of law enforcement. This is the same institution that demanded having single action capability removed from revolvers for its people. Now they don't like having double/single action or just single action for department autos for the mainstream officers. It's all about perceived safety more than magazine capacity or accuracy to my mind.
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  #34  
Old 09-21-2018, 12:19 AM
rangertrace rangertrace is offline
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Originally Posted by SW CQB 45 View Post
We issue Glock 9mm.

I am the person that issues guns for the dept.

These are my duty carries.

My biggest argument with myself, do I go alloy Nina or heavy 45.

the lightweight usually wins.







at the 911 Memorial on Tuesday....I lost count of the 1911s there.
I've never seen anyone carry a spare mag, behind the pistol.
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  #35  
Old 09-21-2018, 12:20 AM
INV136 INV136 is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
High capacity pistols suddenly became "necessary" at the same time "spray and pray" became an acceptable standard. If the operator can't hit the target then we'll just give them more rounds and a put more magazines on their belt because that's easier and cheaper than requiring markmanship proficiency.
I was always taught that you are responsible for every round that you fire in a self defense situation. Our agency never found it acceptable or ever authorized us to "spray and pray" as you described. What agency do/did you work for that adopted that policy?

Oh, and since I retired a few years ago I hung up (sold) my personally authorized for duty carry Sig P229 Stainless Elite .40 pistol and bought this one in 10mm. I carry 5 spare magazines (four on my belt and one in a cargo pocket of my pants).

[url=https://postimg.cc/K3fghbwk]

Last edited by INV136; 09-21-2018 at 12:24 AM. Reason: Additional
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  #36  
Old 09-21-2018, 12:45 AM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is online now
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Originally Posted by rangertrace View Post
I've never seen anyone carry a spare mag, behind the pistol.
It was showed to me by an officer who retired years ago.

If by chance I am shooting left hand and have to do a mag change.....I have one there or if I run out on the other side....I have one more in a place I have room. Its crowded on my left side.

I dont like anything on my back.
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  #37  
Old 09-23-2018, 08:00 PM
DRM813 DRM813 is offline
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Originally Posted by INV136 View Post
I was always taught that you are responsible for every round that you fire in a self defense situation. Our agency never found it acceptable or ever authorized us to "spray and pray" as you described. What agency do/did you work for that adopted that policy?

Oh, and since I retired a few years ago I hung up (sold) my personally authorized for duty carry Sig P229 Stainless Elite .40 pistol and bought this one in 10mm. I carry 5 spare magazines (four on my belt and one in a cargo pocket of my pants).

[url=https://postimg.cc/K3fghbwk]
As you so accurately put it there is no agency that I am aware of the adopts a "spray and pray" philosophy to firearms training. Anyone who truly feels this is the case is grossly uninformed. The plethora of lawyers willing to file lawsuits in the wake to police shootings has ensured this will never be the case.
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  #38  
Old 09-28-2018, 06:38 PM
2A3G1C12 2A3G1C12 is offline
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
Tell that to all the rural, small-town departments across the country. You may need to cobble a couple HUNDRED such depts. together, to equal one LAPD, but that's a LOTTA 1911's still on duty in the field.
Amen to that. Lot's of departments around here either issue them or allow them. Probably several hundred officers carrying 1911's just in mine and the surrounding counties. Our agency issues them, and they don't spare expense when doing so. Our officers carry either two or four spare mags (their choice). Personally, I carry two mags, and am quite content.

Our range officers are very well trained, and spend a lot of time during the quarterly quals making sure everyone is up to speed. They are also our armorers. No issues at all, and more people on the agency are shooting 'Expert' at qual time.

Last edited by 2A3G1C12; 09-28-2018 at 06:39 PM. Reason: typo
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  #39  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:11 PM
Rock185 Rock185 is offline
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Thoughts: I started in LE in the '70s, and carried a revolver with 6 + nothing capacity for over 10 years. A total of 18 rounds on my person. Even then, I only saw 1911s carried as primary weapons by some Sheriffs deputies. The SOs had much more latitude in authorized weapons than big city officers. My first 20+ years in LE I was not allowed to carry a 1911 on duty, but did often carry one off duty.

In the fullness of time, I retired from the big city PD and went to work for a much smaller agency. There, Series '80 Colts were authorized and I carried one for my last several years in LE. Younger officers, not "gun guys", and most carrying high capacity Glocks and SIGs, couldn't relate. Some asked what kind of gun I was carrying, as if it were some kind of curious antique. One guy referred to my stainless Government model as a "pimp gun". I suspect I was considered eccentric, at the very least. In the last three years or so, that smaller department, and the local SO, have gone to all Glocks. So 1911s are not dead in LE, but their numbers are diminishing. Hard to compete with inexpensive plastic high capacity firearms, that do not display that scary cocked hammer..........ymmv

Added a photo of the outrageous "pimp gun" I carried
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  #40  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:31 PM
SW CQB 45 SW CQB 45 is online now
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Trimming the spur hammer and adding aftermarket sights is Pimping your ride!!!!

I am sure there are some goodies under the hood!!!!



Nice piece
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  #41  
Old 10-07-2018, 06:07 PM
BoulderTroll BoulderTroll is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LocoGringo View Post
Tell that to all of the SWAT agencies that seem to keep using it.

In general, yeah, most are going to double stack capacity plastic pistols, but the ones who know how to shoot seem to stick with the 1911...at least some of them.
I'm not sure using SWAT as an example is all the telling of the larger trend. SWAT fill a far different role than a beat cop. When you have an entire team with you, all armed with long guns, the qualities a pistol needs to have start changing drastically, compared to a solo cop or a guy and his partner, who may be a ways from their cars and their long guns.


Modern polymer and alloy pistols have many advantages over a 1911, for those who look at it honestly:

-Less expensive
-Fewer parts
-Simpler to maintain
-Lighter weight (this is a considerable advantage nobody has mentioned yet, especially in this day and age of ergonomic injuries and cops)
-Higher capacity
-Simpler manual of arms
-Easier to teach trainees to shoot effectively

And the advantage that starts wars...reliability. I began a thread a number of years ago which was posted on by literally hundreds of forum members here...all fans of the 1911. Glocks, SIG's, HK's, S&W's, etc., all hovered at about a 90% success rate over a period of years of people posting, as far as failures during the first 300 rounds. Some of the "big name" 1911 companies had as bad as a 50% failure rate during the same 300 rounds. I should explain that the failure rate was for a pistol that experienced a single malfunction during the first 300 rounds, not that only 50% of rounds fired. Haha. My point being, yes, a 1911 can be perfectly reliable. But no, it is not as likely to happen as with many more modern pistols:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=252140


It's totally fine to carry a weapon we have a fondness for, and are proficient with, even if it has some disadvantages. My complaint is when people in a discussion pretend the disadvantages don't exist. As for accuracy, which many 1911 fans use as the primary reason; I personally shoot more accurately with my two P320's than with any other pistols I've owned, including my 1911's and Classic SIGs.
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Last edited by BoulderTroll; 10-07-2018 at 06:17 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:26 PM
Che Che is offline
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Originally Posted by RogueTS1 View Post
...
I noticed that one of the officers had two guns on his belt; a revolver on his strong side and a 1911 cross draw on his weak side. Being a young lad, I asked him why he had two guns on.

He smiled and replied, "The department only issues this .38 special service revolver and we have to carry it ................. but they allow us to carry any kind of pistol we choose as a back up. I therefore choose to carry this Colt 1911 .45 and if I have to draw my gun I can just simply choose to draw my back up gun instead of my service revolver."
Early in the 1980s we were allowed to carry anything as a backup to our 4 inch .38s. So I had a Colt lightweight Commander and that lasted a few weeks until the next Chief came in.

Most Chiefs allowed the 1911 for off duty carry.

Last edited by Che; 10-19-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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  #43  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:32 PM
Che Che is offline
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Originally Posted by AWMP View Post
We had a talk today at work, (been done before but this time it seemed to have more traction) the discussion was the 1911 was dead (done) in law enforcement. The main reason that kept coming up was capacity.

Thoughts?
It really depends on lots of things. If you are in a Department of 10,000 officers your logistical issues are way different than a Department with three officers.

That is why I can relate to Sheriff Longmire. He lets his deputies carry whatever they preferred.
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  #44  
Old 10-19-2018, 07:34 PM
Line Is Loaded Line Is Loaded is offline
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Not Dead but growing

I'm glad guys are having conversations about the tools of the trade. The facts/data actually show increased usage of 1911s in Law Enforcement over the past 5+ years. Many large departments now allow the 1911 to be carried and it is seeing growth outside of just the SWAT guys holsters.

One needs to or should be allowed to carry a tool they believe in, train on and are proficient with. That tool should be accurate, reliable and be capable of bringing the fight to a threat when called upon.

Arguments of capacity, weight, trigger pull are interesting but more times than not, are used to reinforce the individual's position.

When a capacity/weight argument starts, just yawn. There is almost always another model of gun that can carry more or weigh less than what you are using.

Case in point

I carry a G19 over a 1911 due to capacity. Why don't you carry a G17 if capacity is king?

I carry a G19 over a 1911 because manual safeties are hard to use under stress....want to try my home defense M4 carbine with a manual safety?
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  #45  
Old 10-23-2018, 06:17 AM
drail drail is offline
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How on Earth did any LEO ever survive all those years when they all carried revolvers with only 6 rounds in them? It's a miracle. Every officer should be permitted to use whatever they can qualify with.
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  #46  
Old 10-24-2018, 06:31 AM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by Huski92 View Post
In uniform I would want a higher capacity that I could shoot well. Just my opinion.
In uniform, I don't want a bulky, plastic gun w/ no manual safety, and I don't need a hi-capacity magazine to get the job done. And an 8-round, 1911 is all the gun I will ever need. Just my knowledge.
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Last edited by Kevin Rohrer; 10-24-2018 at 05:56 PM.
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  #47  
Old 10-24-2018, 08:07 AM
Huski92 Huski92 is online now
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Originally Posted by Kevin Rohrer View Post
In uniform, I don't want a bulky, plastic gun w/ no manual safety, and I don't need a hi-capacity magazine to get the job done. And 8-round, 1911 is all the gun I will ever need. Just my knowledge.


Your choice. Not mine.


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  #48  
Old 10-24-2018, 11:08 AM
drail drail is offline
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IMO if you "need" more than a 1911 with 7 or 8 rounds and a spare magazine then what you actually need is a shotgun or a carbine or a partner with one. Double stack high cap sidearms will never take the place of a shotgun or carbine. More than anything else you need to be able to hit targets the first time. Extra rounds will never replace that skill.

Last edited by drail; 10-24-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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  #49  
Old 10-24-2018, 05:55 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Originally Posted by drail View Post
IMO if you "need" more than a 1911 with 7 or 8 rounds and a spare magazine then what you actually need is a shotgun or a carbine or a partner with one. Double stack high cap sidearms will never take the place of a shotgun or carbine. More than anything else you need to be able to hit targets the first time. Extra rounds will never replace that skill.
If you need more than 8-rounds, you need something belt-fed or in the multi-kiloton range.
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  #50  
Old 11-12-2018, 06:46 AM
Patrick Kelly Patrick Kelly is offline
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I have four days left of a 25 year law enforcement career. For twenty of that I was a devotee of the 1911. Five years in servitude to Uncle Sugar before that. I type this with complete objectivity.

The 1911 does nothing better than the alternatives in modern law enforcement and most things not as well. Once it was a justifiable choice. Today, it's an affectation chosen because of nostalgia or ego.

If it isn't dead in some backward corner of the law enforcement world it should be.
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