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  #51  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:17 AM
ejr10mm ejr10mm is offline
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Grandpa50AE hit the nail right on the head. No $$$ for training anymore. Ive seen it in the 13 yrs that ive been on the job. At the start seemed like there was more training and more willingness to pay for the training. Fast forward to now and there is just the very basic qualify once a year crap. Then stuff like this happens and bullets get sprayed every where and the cops get grilled (rightly so in this case, how are they going to lose a helicopter in a UPS truck?). There were probably communication issues as well. If they were 2 counties away, there is a goos chance the radios weren't working. I know if I ended up 2 counties over from my jurisdiction, my radio wouldn't work. So lack of training, no communication from bosses to tell you to back off, adrenaline pumping, I can see how this could happen.
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2019, 06:19 AM
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Although I agree with the bad training aspect wholeheartedly, this goes beyond bad training, it shows a lack of common sense and disregard for innocent life. Anyone (civilian, cop, military person) who picks up a firearm know's better (or should), not to do what these cops did. Basic stuff one would teach their son coming of age and getting ready to go on their first hunt (with other hunter's around). The only "excuse" I can see (there really is no excuse) is they become and behaved like a 19-cop mob (as I posted somewhere above). It isn't really an excuse but might explain how insanely they acted...In addition to their tactical training shortfall's, this mob of cop's needs moral training concerning the importance of the preservation of innocent lives.
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Last edited by combat auto; 12-08-2019 at 10:48 AM.
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  #53  
Old 12-08-2019, 10:39 AM
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Ricky T Ricky T is offline
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2019, 11:10 AM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Not so much news as SOP.
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  #55  
Old 12-11-2019, 06:56 PM
dugsdale dugsdale is offline
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Appreciate everyone's comments, to which I'll add: it looks like NO ONE was in charge or calling the shots (no pun intended)--be interesting to see if any senior LEO actually gave an order to fire, or if orders were given to hold fire or what. This ought to change and/or clarify police procedure nationwide, in terms of engaging with live fire when surrounded by civilians, and I hope it costs the various police departments PLENTY at least in terms of accountability (unfortunately it ends up costing the taxpayers money too, but that's another story). I assume they'll be able to tell forensically whose bullets killed the UPS driver and the other innocent bystander, and whoever that was ought to live out their lives knowing they stupidly and mindlessly took innocent lives. I wonder if we'll ever get the full story, simply because LEO stick together and naming names as to who shot whom may never happen. People need to be accountable for their actions here, not just officers in the incident but their chain of command whose errors are possibly more egregious than the LEOs on the ground); once people start shooting, as was pointed out, adrenaline takes over and there's no thinking present, of any kind, and that's just how it goes. I appreciate people attempting to game out what they'd do in a similar situation, but really, lacking a clear or compelling command from 'above' to NOT SHOOT, everybody was just f*cked no matter what they may have planned.

Last edited by dugsdale; 12-11-2019 at 06:59 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #56  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:15 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter59 View Post
Not so much news as SOP.
Of course the high school shooting incident used old training methods of 'wait for reinforcement' before entering.
Something the FBI had changed years before for 'active shooters'.

But that comes back to budgets and dividing up the money.

There is a technique in Engineering that tells you to spend the most when the errors carry the largest price.

Part of Bayes' Theorem.

It shows up all over engineering, and is simply summarized in 'the weak link causes the failure.'

One of the best ways to reduce noise in most receiver designs is to use lower noise devices and designs in the front end of the receiver.
Noise in the signal here is the hardest to try and eliminate later in the receiver.

While thermal noise is no longer the absolute limit in many places.
The Cramer-Rao bound based one Heisenberg appears to be a better absolute limit. Digital signal processing (DSP) can surpass thermal noise limits and approach the Cramer-Rao bound.
I designed a couple of phase detector circuits (patented and still classified) that use DSP techniques.
They are very expensive ti implement in hardware.
But if you need to align two signals to 1E-17 they work.
If slowly (as in it takes significant time to measure the error).
But they can be used to drive atomic clocks to a better alignment.
One of the chief weaknesses to the atomic clock issue is the high temperature required to heat the absorbing atoms to (often cesium vapor).

Rubidium has lower short term noise, but worse long term stability.
And the actual noise in many precision oscillators is still strongly driven by the Q of the crystal oscillators used in them.
Heating the crystals does not help short term noise.

Last edited by brickeyee; 12-11-2019 at 10:20 PM.
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  #57  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:40 PM
tipoc tipoc is online now
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There are a lot of facts that we don't know yet and that will come to light later as they usually do. But it's also clear that a number of errors were made by some of the officer's involved.

Who was in charge is an obvious question? Who had, or was supposed to have from law enforcement, control of the situation?

Officer's were there from multiple agencies all involved in a fluid, fast moving chaotic situation where they all feared being shot. So who was in charge of bringing control of the officers, get them working in a coordinated way together? To evacuate innocents, to discipline firing, to decide who in the van was shooting back and where from, etc.

So a bad situation that will have lessons.
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  #58  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:44 PM
brickeyee brickeyee is offline
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There are a lot of facts that we don't know yet and that will come to light later as they usually do.
Or don't and are hidden from the public.

Most 'Chiefs of Police' answer only to their respective County Boards.
Sheriffs are elected though.
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  #59  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:47 PM
shooter59 shooter59 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brickeyee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post
There are a lot of facts that we don't know yet and that will come to light later as they usually do.
Or don't and are hidden from the public.

Most 'Chiefs of Police' answer only to their respective County Boards.
Sheriffs are elected though.
No....municipal chiefs usually answer to the Mayor or city manager. In some cases a police commission head.
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  #60  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:19 PM
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Kevin Rohrer Kevin Rohrer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tipoc View Post

Who was in charge is an obvious question? Who had, or was supposed to have from law enforcement, control of the situation?

Officer's were there from multiple agencies all involved in a fluid, fast moving chaotic situation where they all feared being shot. So who was in charge of bringing control of the officers, get them working in a coordinated way together? To evacuate innocents, to discipline firing, to decide who in the van was shooting back and where from, etc.
From someone who has Been There and Done That, the people "in-charge" were the bad guys when they started shooting. They dictated Police response, that response being based on prior training and experience, as well as the Fight or Flight syndrome.

As far as communications being mentioned, there most likely was no cross-department communications' capabilities between agencies when multiple counties were concerned, which goes back to the concept of decentralized policing (a concept extremely popular in the US when small-town politicians are concerned).
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