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Aggressiveness

5K views 66 replies 26 participants last post by  Riverkilt 
#1 · (Edited)
So I'm reading Col. Cooper's book on Principles of Personal Defense and come to the chapter on aggressiveness.

My aging mind flashes back to some 50 years ago. I'm in college. Three friends and I decide to go target shooting at the river. I have a .303 Enfield, two friends have bolt action rifles, and one has the then new Remington Nylon 66 semi-auto .22 I guess no one worried about college students having rifles back then.

We're on a bluff some 30 feet above the left bank of the river plinking at drift. Great target practice - the river providing the moving targets.

Suddenly we hear bullets whiz by up overhead, and between us. The rounds are coming from our right, somewhere in the woods below the bluff.

So we holler that way and wave our arms that we're there. Then the gunfire at us heats up! What? Some nut! We were all ROTC guys back then so hit the ground behind a low berm at the edge of the bluff. Still the bullets whizzed over us.

The guy with the Remington had a box of .22 short tracer rounds and loaded his tube with them. When he was ready and the firing hadn't stopped yet all four of us opened up on the apparent source of the gunfire.

I don't know how much whoever it was firing at us was impressed by our three bolt action rifles, but I'm positive the incoming tracers made an impression on them because the firing stopped.

Seemed a good example of what Col. Cooper meant by aggressiveness, though he hadn't written his book yet.
 
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#58 · (Edited)
The increased volume of fire with rounds passing close by after yelling and waving that we were there made the shooter's intentions well known - whatever weirdo motivations they may have had.

WE WERE BEING FIRED AT ON PURPOSE!

We may have been dumb and dangerous but it doesn't take a genius to know someone is trying to kill you after you ask them to cease fire.

This is getting ridiculous....maybe we wore the wrong clothes, or weren't tall enough, or should have raised a white flag....or waited behind the berm until he clambered up and shot us all at point blank range.

Maybe it was Lee Harvey Oswald warming up...naw, we'd been dead if it had been....

Anyone that is ambushed and fired upon with such intensity would be a fool to try to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

I believe all four of us are alive today because we aggressively responded...

I don't know you personally. But I'm guessing most anyone fired on with such intensity after alerting the shooter in hiding that they were there would have responded in a similar fashion....

As for the safety of the sniper in the woods, he was well dug in, the woods were thick. Chances of our hitting him were remote. If you know anything about the backwoods of southern Oregon you'd agree.

We did, as the line from Bull Durham says, "Announce our presence with authority."

Enough, I have another Cooper book to finish reading. I promise if it jogs any memories I'll keep them to myself.
 
#59 · (Edited)
You know, Riverkilt, you've already conceded that you apparently still think it's a good idea to "return fire" at people who "even accidentally" shoot your way, even if, in the situation as you recounted, it might be only "one stupid kid" doing things that boys with under-developed frontal lobes are, in your mind, prone to do. You further imply that if you and your friends had been older; that if it were today instead of yesteryear and that if you had a close-by cell phone to access instead of a distant phone booth, you might have acted differently; that is, more prudently if not wiser.

I'm not sure why you started a thread titled "Aggressiveness" if you didn't anticipate, if not solicit, opinions; even if they differ from yours. In that spirit, I would suggest that you stop worshipping at the altar of Cooper (to whom I think you are doing a great disservice to by inferring that he would have endorsed you and your friends' foolish actions under the mantel of "Aggressiveness") and start reading the works of people like Massad Ayoob, who are adept at defining when it's a good time to shoot at people with a gun and when it's a bad time to shoot at people, especially the ones you can't see nor know with any degree of certainty their intentions.
 
#60 ·
Sir, you do extrapolate well into unrelated areas. I also read Ayoob and have read most of his books and continuing articles.

At the time of the event under discussion Col. Cooper was still school teaching and 10 years from his first book. Massad Ayoob was 14yo and 17 years from his first book.

My sole point in the OP was to point out that just as Col. Cooper wrote - in this instance aggressiveness worked. Right or wrong in your court - it worked.

I understand that you in your wisdom may have reacted differently.

I did not post so that you could belittle me and deluge me with "what ifs." None of those "gotcha" posts speak to the point of the original post.

Fortunately, I have received three separate private emails warning me about you - that this is the way you are on this forum, perhaps get some feeling of superiority from treating other posters like you've treated me, and they warned that you are relentless in this pursuit of self-satisfaction from "gotcha -what ifs." So I will disengage and let you rant on as you wish.

Just FYI, I am a 72yo intelligent, aware, adult with a master's degree, two professional licenses and three professional certifications. Ironically in the field of professional counseling. I have served in the USMC (Cold War) and as a LEO (MLK Riots) and currently work in the criminal justice system which sends me to jail and court every week. I am well versed in consequences. This was the first time in my life I had been fired upon. It turned out not to be my last. I'm also a gun addict who owns a safe full of firearms.

As a licensed professional counselor for 25 years I recognize your projection and displacement.

Do be careful before responding - should you choose to. To slander a person's profession is slander per se in Common Law.

Adieu sir.

And to the other forum members, thanks for the heads up.
 
#61 ·
Just FYI, I am a 72yo intelligent, aware, adult with a master's degree, two professional licenses and three professional certifications. Ironically in the field of professional counseling. I have served in the USMC (Cold War) and as a LEO (MLK Riots) and currently work in the criminal justice system which sends me to jail and court every week. I am well versed in consequences. This was the first time in my life I had been fired upon. It turned out not to be my last. I'm also a gun addict who owns a safe full of firearms.

.
I don't have a dog in this fight
Just simply following along with no hard 'n fast determination/judgements one way or another

and since the your original intend of thread is long gone...

I'm curious, would you react the same now?
and if not, how would you handle it today?
(assume no cell signal)

Thanks

..L.T.A.
 
#62 ·
Never can tell....but can say that every time I've been fired at since I've returned fire. Fortunately, every time since was with fellow officers and we all returned fire. And in each case the shooter ceased fire and surrendered. But they were in a house, and in a building and could not slink away like whoever it was in the woods.

That wasn't the last time I've heard a bullet passing close. I suppose in later life its one's instinctive training that kicks in. Then it was probably pure instinct.

So, I've never had a polite/curious discussion with anyone shooting at me.
 
#63 ·
So it would appear.

Just FYI, I am a 72yo intelligent, aware, adult with a master's degree, two professional licenses and three professional certifications. Ironically in the field of professional counseling. I have served in the USMC (Cold War) and as a LEO (MLK Riots) and currently work in the criminal justice system which sends me to jail and court every week. I am well versed in consequences. This was the first time in my life I had been fired upon. It turned out not to be my last. I'm also a gun addict who owns a safe full of firearms.

That maybe your frontal lobe actually grew up at some point. Good for you.
 
#64 · (Edited)
Shooting and aggressiveness.....

I can not judge the situation since I was not there. I can say that three people shooting down into the water from a higher bluff, is not necessarily a good idea. A hidden solid object in the water or just below the surface might cause a ricochet. My question is, was it possible that the shooter that shot above your heads thought he was being shot at...and his life was threatened by an errant shot?

If I had thought someone was shooting at me, I would have gone prone and crawled away from the shooter if possible. If the woods allowed good concealment, I would have wanted to track down the shooter to find out who was shooting at me and why....! Was the shooter your enemy or the enemy of one of your friends.....it would be good to know to try to prevent a future attack? If the person that was shooting at you was "a nut job" then it would have been in your best interest and for others to stop him and hold him for police....after all, according to your account, it was a dangerous act of "attempted murder!" Even if you didn't confront the shooter, it may have been worthwhile to get a visual of the shooter and get a good description to follow up with the police.....

Everyone may react differently when being shot at, but I would have been both super angry and super curious, and would have tried to track down the shooter if the woods allowed the use of good concealment even if it was just to get a good look at the attacker.....others might not take the risk......:scratch:
 
#65 ·
Good point about the possible ricochet. One of the reasons folks liked to shoot from the bluff was that it was at a bend in the river - a deep river - the Willamette. Chance of a skip off the surface of the water...but the area was entirely deep woods, save the bluff. The shooter was down river from us, difficult to get a ricochet back there. But if that were the case wouldn't he be shouting and waving at us?

Even if his first shots were his way of warning, when we shouted and waved at him to announce our presence he didn't stop firing. He increased his level of fire directly at us.
Our response was instinctive, perhaps testosterone driven, we didn't talk about it, all four of us reacted on instinct and returned fire...if you're gonna shoot at us then we're gonna shoot at you. We made our point. and he stopped shooting. Ruined the day for us since we decided not to tempt fate anymore and went home.

Being a LEO later in life led me to be shot at from ambush twice more. Both times I was also with other LEOs and both times we immediately returned fire. Once during the MLK riots it was a shooter from a building who must have been a "shoot and move" guy because we never found him. The other was a nut case with a .22 rifle shooting at us from an upstairs bedroom. The return volume of fire convinced him his .22 rifle was pretty worthless against our firepower and he surrendered.

In the MLK ambush I sheltered behind a car - not much but something. In the nut case there was a very lovely huge oak tree in the yard that was about 4 feet in diameter that I fired from behind.

In all three cases the response of not just myself, but my friends, was to dive to shelter and return fire.

Aggressiveness worked in all three cases...though it was an instinctive response.

And for the curious, all three situations were in the 60's back when our service revolvers were S&W .38 specials.

Anyone wanting to wag their finger at me - know that I have given up all hope of having a better past.
 
#66 ·
Do be careful before responding - should you choose to. To slander a person's profession is slander per se in Common Law.
What hubris. You are "warning" me not to exercise my right to free speech in a gun forum because my opinions differ from yours? Citing your "credentials" and marshaling the company of others to bolster your sense of self-confidence doesn't change the fact that what you did when you were young and dumb doesn't change the fact that it was stupid and reckless.

This is your thread, Riverkilt, and one that you've made abundantly clear that I'm unwelcome to participate in-unless I kowtow to your point of view. I'm sorry that you feel so threatened by opposing opinions.

auf Wiedersehen, Riverkilt. Good wishes to you and your family as we travel on our separate roads of life in this old world.
 
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