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Question for Military, law enforcement and other similar field

5K views 51 replies 25 participants last post by  walks with gun 
#1 ·
I am only allowed to carry handguns and due numerous bandits in my area, i am wondering can a handgun serve as proper defense to people with rifles?

While you were at service, did you use your handgun against threats with high power rifle?

Can you win? Can you properly defend yourself? What is the best tactic to fight a better equipped threat.
 
#7 · (Edited)
We are only permitted to carry pistols. Although i sneak out a shotgun or an AR from time
To
Time. This february I will recieve a fully automatic Uzi upsb. Will this help even if its
Just 9 mm?

With the recent drug war here in my country. Price of
Drugs have skyrockted, price has increased 15x. And the drug dependents will do anything to get money.

This is
No exageration, my friendly
Neighbor at my farm
Got killed because he sold his goat for
85$ and bad people got a wind of it and killed him
Formit
 
#3 ·
Only allowed to carry a handgun.....

I would not want to place myself in a situation where I had to defend myself with a handgun against a bad guy with a high powered rifle.....:eek:

If you can only carry a handgun and are not allowed to have a rifle, it is best to avoid a gun fight, and perhaps give the bandits what they want.... however, if the bandits are known to rob and kill their victims, then it may be best to fight with anything you have.....

If you are allowed to carry two handguns, perhaps carry a very flat shooting magnum revolver that is very accurate, that can hit a man sized target at 100 yds. or better, and also carry a fast shooting high capacity gun, like a S&W M&P 9mm.

I use to compete in handgun metallic silhouette matches in the Production division and used a Ruger Blackhawk .44 magnum. Using my own handloads, the gun would shoot a 6" group from a rest at 100 yds..... My load was accurate and powerful enough to knock down the steel 42" tall rams at 200 meters.....
 
#4 ·
How are they defining a handgun? If it is as the ATF classifies a pistol, then there are some alternatives. You have AR pistols with the sig brace. You have AK pistols. There are also the lever action mayor's leg pistols Henry makes (and I'm sure there are others).
 
#6 ·
Bandits are usualy "kidnap
For ransom" group. Numerous of
My friends
Were kidnapped.

3 were returned , one was killed even if the ransom
Is paid. They usualy follow your routine and a group
Of 5-6 guys will surround you with high. Power riffle. Kill your driver to shock you and abduct you.
I know
My chances would be slim if i fight it out but i want to take
My chances than getting
My ear cut off as proof of life

Another
Modus operandi is a simple armed
Robbery,
 
#17 ·
I cannot leave because it is my business, I can not just abandon it. I have used a gun before but both of us are wielding pistols so the fight is fair, I am just concerned if the guy is better equipped :( bandits are usually better equipped
 
#9 ·
Kidnapping---it sounds like the gangs are operating up close and personal then.
If I had to live under such conditions I'd consider traveling in a group with armed cohorts.
One pistol against a gang isn't so good.
Two or three pistols against a gang is better.
Two or three Uzis against a gang is better yet!
 
#10 ·
When you get the Uzi make sure that you practice with it.

They are difficult to use effectively especially at any distance. I would be judicious about my travel plans. It would appear that your presidents war on drugs is having some unintended consequences. I would also get the handgun with the most firepower that I could manage to get and use. I would likely carry My H&K Mark 23 or one of my S&W model 1006s. Unfortunately neither of which is likely to be easy to get where you live.

Let us know how you make out.
 
#11 ·
Clearly You CANNOT compete on a weapon or a numbers basis.

They have long arms AND superior numbers.

If there is going to be a fight you need more guys and better arms. There's no way around that fact.

Sure, you can improve your crappy odds with better skills / training but still the advantage is skewed VERY heavily in the bandit's favor.

So yes, get the Uzi & get as much use info you can (Israeli methods would be a good call)

But I think that your priority should be on strategic & tactical confrontation avoidance.

Be as hard a target as possible. Group up with other armed people/organizations in carpool convoys. Time your outings. Choose your destinations/ routes carefully. See if you can go places when the cops are going that way too.

Or just get the hell out. This is what I would do. Your paycheck is probably not worth it.
 
#12 ·
As others have said, there's no solid "tactical" solution, unless more people and more guns are a viable option.

You need to start thinking stratigiclly: where are you going, why, is the movement absolutely essential? Can you convoy with others? Can you significantly vary routes and times? Is professional security an option?
 
#13 · (Edited)
Learn how to avoid the situation at all costs when possible. Make yourself not a target as much as possible.

That's all the advice I would have! In situations that you describe, you're screwed when coming up against multiple assailants with rifles if you simply have a handgun. And I would bet these are the type to have no regard for life at all. So all I can say is train up on how to make yourself not a target till you can move to a better location!

This type of situation is not something that your typical local LEO is going to have a clue about either. And only special operations troops are going to have the training and know how to survive when out numbered and outgunned. But they also go equipped with more than just a handgun as well!

Have good SA at all times and at the first sense of danger, I'd be getting the heck out of dodge no matter whether the threat is real or just perceived. Find cover as soon as you can if you cannot escape and give them hell if that's what you want to do too.
 
#15 ·
Thankyou for your inputs, I will take pictures of the "Worry SPots" or transitional spaces where in I can be " Hit"

I travel with a driver most days , we will attend fire arms training on January 14. I hope this helps us in a good ways.

I am very concerned with our road where in its narrow and at the end the road will widen. Perhaps you can help me of a good strategy if something goes down
 
#16 ·
Yes I think that I might be able to help you a bit.



Keep your exposure down to a minimum. I used to have Phillipino Seaman working for me. This is the same advice that I gave them. If you have to go somewhere in a hostile environment find other people that have to make the same journey. Strength is in numbers any way that you look at it.
 
#20 · (Edited)
There are two things I noticed that is of great defence:
1. Constant awareness of your surrounding
2. Trying to maintain a low level of adrenaline going into any situation

Two of the hardest/stressful things a human can do under that situation.

I understand the present president of the Philippines is trying to combat drugs and the users or sellers don't like that. Stay safe.

(We are fortunate living in this country. Unless someone lives in and area like certain parts of Chicago, it might be somewhat hard to fully understand what you and your family are going through)
 
#21 ·
Bandits/killers....

If I had a business and my life was always at risk from bandits, I would sell the business and move.....

However, if you choose to stay, don't wait for the bandits, take the offensive.
If you have friends, local law enforcement, or enough money to hire mercenaries.....track down the bandits and kill them.....it seems like people in the Philippines would be better off...!:)

If you don't have enough money to eradicate the bandits, or if the local law enforcement is corrupt or ineffective.....sell the business and move.....you can always start another business.....but once you are dead, you can't start another life....!
 
#37 · (Edited)
If I had a business and my life was always at risk from bandits, I would sell the business and move.....

However, if you choose to stay, don't wait for the bandits, take the offensive.
If you have friends, local law enforcement, or enough money to hire mercenaries.....track down the bandits and kill them.....it seems like people in the Philippines would be better off...!:)

If you don't have enough money to eradicate the bandits, or if the local law enforcement is corrupt or ineffective.....sell the business and move.....you can always start another business.....but once you are dead, you can't start another life....!
^THIS!! Never cower & wait. Threat is never going away if they are emboldened by constant success. Take the fight to them. Organize and attack,make them the ones covering their six. Authorities and government officials that would arrest you for having a long gun to protect yourself are not friendly,dispose of them also. You will become a state enemy so you need a way to spread your word to the people. Easy for me to direct from safety but as God is my witness I would do this rather than live in fear of evil. Send you loved ones to safety,you will lose any means to support yourself,be willing to suffer and die standing on your feet,fighting. Once you accept that you may or will die all fear will leave and you will fight like you are invinceable. Trust me,the elephant is life changing and God loves righteous warriors Sorry for the sermon,your circumstances filled me with anger at the unjust treatment of good people
 
#23 ·
Thanks for the vote of confidence.... though it may be misplaced- or at least the answer is not what people want to hear.

If its just me and a driver, 1 vehicle, pistols only, confronted by multiple opponents armed with rifles: if the vehicle stops moving, for any reason, death or capture are the only probable outcomes. Even with 3 of my closest friends in the vehicle with me, the odds don't change much.

Tacticly, its a no-win engagement. Unless the bandits make some significant mistakes to exploit, it doesn't matter who yoh are, or what your training, background, or experience is... as the Irishman in Braveheart said "... Im pretty sure you're f%@#&!"

Avoidance is the best defense, and thats operational or stratigic thinking and planning.
 
#24 ·
I agree that the the most important control here is not the trigger, but the throttle.

How badass is your driver? Is he willing to run over someone blocking the vehicle?

Ram an obstruction?

Take to the sidewalk, with horn blaring & scooters flying?

Because if a civilian tries to block your vehicle, & there has not been an accident, we can assume they mean you harm----------Then it's Go Time.

Hey, You said it was the Wild West.

If your driver is NOT good with running over someone, maybe YOU should drive & keep him on lookout.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Sounds to me like you run a plantation of some sorts. If you can afford a driver then you should be able to afford to armor up your vehicle. I say if the situation is as bad as you say in your country then screw the law that says you can only carry a pistol and carry what you need. The uzi sounds like a pretty good start. I would recommend getting one, or something more modern like an MP-5 or a Kriss Vector, for everybody in the vehicle. These should be short and handy enough in close quarters should the need arise.

I would do as stated above and not have too much of a pattern. Take a different way to town each time. Maybe determined just before leaving the house by a random roll of a die/dice. Drive with a caravan of other plantation owners (army of armored vehicles rolling down the road) driven by drivers whom have no qualms with running down any drug addict bandits that get in the way. Do not stop the vehicles for any reason. Anybody that does not get out of the way of an armed protection convoy has nothing but bad intentions if trying to get you to stop. I have to believe the police will understand after the fact.

Handguns vs rifles is not a pleasant idea; you are starting at a very real disadvantage; but being that these bandits are drug addicts, I would surmise they are not spending their time training with said rifles and are much more intent on getting high in their free time. If this be the case, my experience is then that your people with subguns at close range and some training should be able to put the fear of God into them. Remember, violence and force of action rules the day. If these bandits want to play hard ball then teach them what playing hardball is. You have money and resources; use them to your advantage and teach these thugs that their time would be better spent in a different area than you and your fellow plantation owners.
 
#30 ·
Who knows? But there's a huge difference between being able to hire a $5k a year driver in a 3rd world country and dropping $100k+ on an armored vehicle... the cost of which doesn't vary much based on markets or location.

Perhaps NOT using a driver would reduce risk and profile... create a perception of not being a worthwhile kidnap/ransom target?
 
#31 ·
True about buying an up armored vehicle from say GM or something but he states he is dealing with drug addict bandits not trained combatants; so being in the Philippines I would hazard to say there are some shade tree type of mechanics that could put something together that would do the job for a very reasonable price. My life, even my ear is worth that if I am going to stay.

I, of course, am making more than a few assumptions about the situation here.
 
#32 ·
There's a lot of engieneering that goes into trying to armor a vehicle; its not as simple as welding some plates on...

Ballistic glass costs what it costs, regardless of where in the world you are. Same with armor plate and ballistic fiber... its not discounted because its in the 3rd world. Swapping an engine, transmission, and building a cooling system and suspension to handle the weight may be less expensive in a 3rd world country- and the results are a roll of the dice.

I'm sure you could have someone rig up some hillbilly armor, but it would be just that. It may or may not work, it would probably destroy the vehicle, and it likely wouldn't be very discreet.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I cannot comment on the cost of armored glass in a third world country but if it is anything like most things in this world it costs vastly more in the US and some other places and sells for peanuts in lesser places. That being, or not being the case; the so called "Hillbilly" engineering you speak of can be nothing less than professional. I know many of your so called "Hillbilly Tinkerers" that build professional race cars/motorcycles in their garages at home (note old time Nascar racers.) Many of today's high performance pieces as well as military grade products were developed in one of these "Hillbilly's" workshops. I know some that can be handed a race bred braking system that will not work for an application and in two days while at their day job, bring home a totally new machined system that will drop right in and work that looks like it just came out of a Ford/GM delivery box.

We are not talking about some ******** on Facebook. My point is you cannot overlook the abilities of these so called "Hillbillies" that just may be able to provide something to help this guy out. Based upon your username I have to believe you know a few of these guys yourself. You know, they can build/engineer anything.............

Would it work? Well I suspect the testing involved would figure that out. These guys know about testing their products.

Would it destroy the vehicle? I also suspect that these guys would test that too. These guys know about testing their products.

As to discretion, if he is worried about losing his ear or his life who cares. I am saying he/they should not be discreet but should be shouting from the roof tops, "Don't mess with us!"

Once again I am assuming this man lives here and has at least some money and resources. If he is some kind of contractor working for a foreign business that will not provide proper resources and security my advice is pretty much worthless. I am offering that a little bit of invested time, money and expertise could go a long way towards negating the threat of some road side bandits whom are untrained and undisciplined.

"Country" type people aka Southerners................... can and will find a way to get things done for themselves. They do not need to rely on the Government and their methods are most often anything but crude and almost always very effective. Where there is a need and will, there is a way.
 
#34 ·
Rouge, ballistic materials are a very specialty product, made by a relative handful of manufacturers in the world. Its not like an AK that goes for $800 in the US and can be had for $50 in Mogudishu. Pricing is based on one global market for the materials, and not subject to the lessor economies of the 3rd world.

I don't underestimate the ingenuity and skill of relatively primitive tinkerers, mechanics, and craftsmen- I've seen it first hand. They can make things work, they're generally not efficient or pretty about it.

What I am saying is that they're NOT going to strip a car to the frame, armor it to the levels of quality of a specialty shop, and re assemble it so that it appears factory fresh- for a fraction of the cost of such a specialty vehicle. Anything they build would be of both questionable ballistic quality, the finished product would be fairly crude, and it wouldn't be 'cheap'...
 
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