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Modify your carry weapon?

6K views 96 replies 36 participants last post by  1911_Kid 
#1 ·
Currently carry a S&W M&P compact in .357Sig The gun is stock just as it left the factory. Love the gun, hate the trigger since all my other M&P's have the Apex stuff or just a better trigger- also the sights are stock nite sights are losing their glow. Question is if I were to install a better trigger and some better sights and had to use the gun for self defense and ended up in court, would any modifications to the gun make it {more evil} to a defense lawyer or jury? Would someone inspect the gun after it is confiscated by the police and make notes of modifications? Would the lawyer for the guy I shoot use the modifications against me, say I modified it to make it kill my attacker better? Or am I just screwed with or without modifications because I just defended my life against a gib me dat thug?
 
#3 ·
If you end up in court after an SD event in VA (which is pretty gun friendly) your ACTIONS are in serious question, not the gun... mods may be brought into play, but I doubt that thrill be the single factor that convicts or aquits you...
 
#5 ·
1. I doubt anyone would notice the mods.

2. Unless Accidental Discharge is a factor in the case, The trigger work is not relevant.

3. Replacing sights that are failing is just maintenance anyhow, Not really a modification.

4. That said, The prosecutor / plaintiff's council absolutely HAS to bring this up if they think it can have ANY desired effect on the jury. But this wouldn't.

Your lawyer will object on relevance. Judge will probably sustain that. So, your mods will probably be unnoticed & would not even be a factor if it came to light.

So worry not. Btw, this took 5 billable minutes. Send me a check.
 
#12 ·
If you send me your account number I'll wire transfer your fee from my offshore account, I just need you to send me half.
 
#6 ·
In my town, any gun confiscated for any reason is run over to our LGS for test firing. There are a few gun nuts on the local PD who might recognize non-stock components but they don't get to handle the gun once it is in the Crime Scene department's hands, in fact, no one does.
I don't know what happens in court but unless the plaintiff admits to modification of the gun, I can't see the attorney doing anything about it.
This BS runs rampant and comes up here on a near weekly basis. If it is a good shoot, there is little to no chance there even will be a court case. Civll is barred as well on a good shoot. Move to Florida.
 
#8 ·
Btw, Your gun will be shown to the jury. Your gun, as described, sounds pretty normal looking. To the jurors it's just a gun, as expected. Just like the one the bailiff is wearing in the courtroom.

The appearance of this gun will not sway them one way or another.

HOWEVER, If it has a 20 round extended mag sticking out the bottom and an Aimpoint sight, laser, suppressor, and engraved with "say hello to my little friend" ---to match the "kill them all & let God sort them out" on the grips you will be making a very bad impression.

That's a bad impression on the people who are deciding your fate. They are trying to decide if you are a reasonable person who acted as they would have.

And a gun like that does NOT make you look reasonable at all. More like a nut.

I suggest keeping appearances in mind before getting a carry UZI or that facial tattoo.
 
#13 ·
I'll leave the hello kitty grips for my range gun but I'm gonna get the word ''HATE'' tattooed across my forehead no matter what they say.
 
#9 ·
Unless Accidental Discharge is a factor in the case, The trigger work is not relevant.
Unscrupulous prosecutors will portray intentional, legal/moral shootings as accidental.
I'd rather try to convince a jury that mods to the sights and trigger are to enhance accuracy, reducing the chance of a stray round (safety first!), than to explain a stray round resulting from a crappy trigger.
 
#49 ·
RickB. Your first line about prosecutors is confusing. -----------What?

Why would a prosecutor want to portray a shooting as accidental?
A prosecutor wouldn't, but the opposing legal counsel would gladly make a righteous shooting appear to be an accident in order to sue you. Sensible modifications to a firearm are not a big deal, but taking a gun that comes from the factory with an 8# trigger and turning it into a 3.5# trigger might cause problems. I don't see how improved sights on a gun could ever become a liability.

A good example might be the S&W SD9VE, which comes from the factory with what they call their "self defense trigger" which is rated between 8-10#. Apex makes a trigger and spring kit that brings it down to 5# or less. If you used such a pistol in a shooting and the opposing counsel summoned a S&W representative, they would likely testify that they put an 8-10# trigger in their pistol specifically to reduce the chances of an inadvertent discharge. If you altered the trigger so that it was several pounds lighter than factory specs I doubt the S&W rep would go to bat for you. For that reason I would suggest polishing triggers on your defense gun so that they're smoother and with less grittiness, but don't reduce the actual pull weight below factory tolerances.
 
#14 ·
I was thinking about the Apex duty/carry kit and some dawsons for the sights, if I was to have to use the gun for defense I'm probably gonna loose everything I own- just would hate to loose everything over a set of sights
 
#16 ·
I decided long ago that to be tried by twelve, I had to survive the fight. Anything reasonable which lets me:


1. Avoid hitting innocents
B. Stop the attack as quickly as possible (which will also minimize risk to innocents)
III. Minimize the number of rounds I have to discharge (which, again, minimizes risk to innocents; there's a theme here)

is what I'm going to do. All the folks chanting 'modified guns will get you in trouble in court!' aren't going to be there to help if I miss the attacker, or hit an innocent.

Just MHO, of course;

Larry
 
#17 ·
I'm of the camp that would modify the gun, and I have modified my home d guns. I would keep it real and reasonable. I don't think it's reasonable to say you NEED a 2 1/2 lb trigger to shoot accurately. You are very unlikely to need your gun anyway, and the odds diminish even further that you'll need it as shooting distances increase. My thought is to keep it in the 5 lb range with a crisp break. No skulls such. Chose a sight that you like. I'd have no reservations about a laser on a carry gun.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Carry gun and modifications....

I have a S&W M&P Pro Series 9mm. The trigger was very good when I purchased it new, but does have a longer take up than my 1911 triggers. I would have no problem using this gun with +P JHP ammo for self defense.

However, the .357 SIG round is pretty stout, and using a polymer framed compact gun would most likely cause a great deal of muzzle flip....which does not help when trying to shoot fast follow up shots..... When using medium bore calibers with stout recoil, the heavier the gun, the better the recoil control.

My EDC gun is a .38 super, all steel Commander. I like and use 125 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP bullets, that leave the muzzle at 1,350 fps. This may not have the velocity of the .357 SIG, but it is still a powerful and accurate round in my gun. I built the gun with a W/N ramped Bar Sto Bull barrel. The additional weight of the steel frame gun helps to mitigate recoil when compared to a stout load in the S&W M&P, and allows decent split times on follow up shots. I have no problem carrying it all day with an OWB holster. I like and prefer a 2.75# - 3# 1911 trigger with a clean break and no creep on my EDC gun.....this allows me optimal trigger control and greater accuracy when shooting fast....

I would say that in most states, in a self defense situation, the use of lethal force may be necessary if someone places you in fear for your life or the lives of others.....the type of weapon usually doesn't matter as much as the reason why you felt you had to use lethal force......if you have to save your life by using a baseball bat, it all depends on why you felt you needed to use lethal force to begin with.....which may have to be explained if it ever ends up in a trial. However, I know a very clear cut self defense shooting, where the victim felt the need to use lethal force, may not even be prosecuted if all the evidence points that it was a good self defense shoot.....otherwise, it may go to trial.

A self defense situation at an Orlando convenience store one evening happened several years ago. A 21 year old man was getting gas for his truck, when he heard screams coming from inside the convenience store....he witnessed a big man savagely beating a female store clerk. He got a handgun out of his truck and went to investigate. He told the man to stop beating the women, but the irate attacker turned on the smaller young man and said he was going to kill him..... The 21 year old shot and killed the man. When the police investigated, the whole scene was on video, and corroborated both the badly beaten woman's story and the young man that shot the attacker. It seems the irate attacker was the former boyfriend of the female store clerk, and was irate that she broke up with him...... the 21 year old man was taken into custody to explain the details and sign a sworn statement, but never spent a day in jail.......the DA did not bother to attempt to prosecute since it was a clear case of self defense...... The female store clerk also filed a statement and swore her former boyfriend had threatened her life several times, and felt he would have killed her if the young man had not intervened......she was taken by ambulance to a hospital for her injuries, but fully recovered.
 
#21 ·
I was talking to a CCW holder in Orange County CA. He said they don't allow modifications on any guns and you must list the guns by S/N on your license. You are limited to 2 or 3 guns on your license.
 
#23 · (Edited)
From personal experience. I sat in every day of my brothers trial. He displayed his gun to two men driving separate vehicles who felt wronged during traffic. One man was constantly reaching behind his seat while chasing him. The other was a witness. My brother drove all the way to the police station and never stopped. But before he could exit his car the guys following him got out of theirs. The first one 'black object' in hand yelled back to second one, the witness 'cmon let's get that guy'. This happens in the parking lot of the PD. My brother who had been chased by two men and was now soon to face one yelling and screaming with object in hand leveled his 1911 at him and told him to leave him alone and get back in his car. By this time officers were aware of the unfolding situation. Brother was a courier and wearing shorts and Tshirt. Two men wearing suits. Black object turned out to be a Polaroid camera. Yes it was that long ago. The pic he took became exhibit A and it was blown up for the jury to see. Yes two suits against young guy in shorts and T made more of a convincing story than he did and he was arrested for Agg Assault with a firearm. Prosecutor offered him a plea. Forfeit your permit and gun rights and we will drop charges.
He immediately declined that as he was convinced he was in the right. And so was his atty.

Long story....but I'm getting to your point.

During the trial the prosecutor had in a ziploc back his gun AND the hollowpoints he had in it. He tried to portray my brother as a madman simply over the rounds he had in the gun and constantly shook the bag in front of the jury while speaking to them. 'This man had extra lethal bullets and fantasized about shooting people!' is what he said. It wasn't pretty.
Facing a mandatory three yrs in prison if convicted it was tense to say the least.
In the end my brothers atty put the witness on the stand and asked him what the chaser said to him as he exited object in hand. 'Let's get that guy!!!' is what the witness said. That is also what my brother heard and said. Remember my brother drove all the way to the PD parking lot before stopping and only leveled his gun at the man when he exited his vehicle screaming at him object in hand.
Jury deliberated for six hours and came back with not guilty verdict. The foreman later told us it was the witnesses testimony which showed them they were the aggressors and my brother was the victim. It saved him.

Long story short but I do believe if you find yourself in court in a questionable SD related situation the prosecutor will throw everything he can at the wall and hope something sticks.

Lesson learned in life. Relax, breathe, analyze and don't get wrapped up in road rage scenarios. Just let it go....
 
#24 ·
That's my point. The prosecutor was trying to portray Bro as a violent madman.

Doesn't matter that Bro won because it WAS NOT a "slam dunk" for him. Those jurors argued for six hours----------- meaning it easily could have gone the other way resulting in a conviction.

A violent slogan on the gun, or a crazy-scary drum magazine Thompson could have tipped the scales against him.

So basic mods for improved performance are likely okay in court. But if you go overboard with the Soldier Of Fortune Tactical Operator look &/or Badass slogans & imagery it could bite you in the butt later.
 
#30 ·
It was a lonnnnnng time ago, as evidenced by the Polaroid and not an iPhone he took the pic with. Florida had just enacted our CWFL ability and people driving around or walking around carrying guns was still new and scary to most. In my area particularly many are retirees from northern states that still do not allow it. So everyone's mentality when this was enacted was 'omg there's gonna be blood in the streets!!' In the 30yrs or so since we've had the ability I think less than 5 have had their CWFLs revoked for things. We are by statistic MORE law abiding than police officers. Even The NY Times proved that.
But at the time it happened my brother made the news, it was a big story and the local paper nicknamed him the 'I95 gunman' in their stories regarding. The local AM talk shows also used up an entire week with 'do we really need or want these kind of people carrying guns among us?'
Nowadays I can tell you that we have almost 2 million CWFLs issued and many are to those same senior citizens who were against it decades ago.

It was a really tense learning part of our lives. The jury really didn't take my brothers word for it when he said what he heard. But I could see them paying deep attn to the witnesses testimony. And when bros atty asked him what he heard thank God he took his oath seriously and repeated same that my brother had said. And he also verified the one who said it said it aggressively as he was approaching brothers car with black object in hand. That I as well as his atty could see turned em around. And after that question the atty came back patted my bro on the back and whispered to him 'we just turned em and will win.'

The jury foreman freely spoke to us after the trial and told us there were only two dissenters who thought he was guilty. And it took a while to review and convince them he wasn't. However the atty did say it was a good thing he exercised self control and didn't shoot the guy. It may have turned out much different. His not shooting him again demonstrated to the jury he wasn't looking to or dreaming about shooting anyone. Also the fact he never stopped to confront them with his gun and instead drove all the way to the PD parking lot weighed a lot on the juries decision.

We both learned lessons from it and moved on. Brother no longer needs to worry about things like this anymore as he is with God watching over his nephew now.
 
#25 ·
Well I have my own ideas on this.

But something to be considered by everyone should be this. If you should actually get to the point where you are to be judged by a jury of your peers. You might wish to consider that a jury of your peers. Well they might very well be persons that resemble you in the sense that they have two arms and two legs. Just something to consider.
 
#27 ·
This is why it is quite important to me to live where I "belong"

But something to be considered by everyone should be this. If you should actually get to the point where you are to be judged by a jury of your peers. You might wish to consider that a jury of your peers. Well they might very well be persons that resemble you in the sense that they have two arms and two legs. Just something to consider.
I cannot imagine being judged by a jury of my "peers" who are so unlike me in mind and lifestyle that we are foreign to each other, and don't understand each others' way of life/mindset/ethics, etc. Hell, I can't imagine living amongst such a population, much less putting my future in their hands.

I prefer my "locals" to be somewhat similar to myself. I don't mind variety and individuality at all, but there are a lot of places in this country where the people have a philosophy that I don't want anything to do with, nor to have it influence my life in any way. Being part of and supporting/being supported by a community I can be proud of means a lot to me.
 
#26 ·
Every morning while watching the news there are several big shot lawyers who have commercials talking about how they will stop at nothing to win your case. These guys are just dirtbags, they all have this cheesy smile and smug look to them. I can just see one of them holding up my evil black pistol with it's 11 extra deadly hollow point bullets saying I was just waiting for the chance to use it on their client.
 
#29 ·
I carry for a living and ALL of my guns have some sort of modification. Sights, grips, for my AR light, etc.

They all fall under Department guidelines. Being in Los Angeles I can not believe we would allow any modifications if we thought it would open the City or Department to greater liability.
 
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