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  #26  
Old 08-26-2015, 11:38 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
I am saying that any quality hollow-point ammo that your gun likes and that you can shoot well will do the job if you do your job and get good hits with it. Should you THINK about it? Sure, why not. Should you OBSESS over it? No.
While I agree that it isn't worth obsessing over, it is also true that different "quality" HP bullets perform differently. Like it or not, its a fact. In the late 80s/90s, the Federal HydroShok in .45ACP was the best feeding, best performing HP available. It expanded to a whopping .75" (unless it got plugged up...) penetrated very well, and fed reliably in almost anything. Fast forward 25 years, and the same company makes another product, that feeds well, penetrates deeply, and consistently expands to 1.0". Is .25" a big deal? I suppose that depends on how you look at it- on the one hand, its only a quarter inch difference, or, to put it another way, its about 100% GREATER expansion than its predecessor... all else being equal, I'll take the significantly bigger hole every day.

At the very least, it makes for interesting discussion.
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  #27  
Old 08-26-2015, 12:14 PM
USMM guy USMM guy is online now
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For me, the current load is.

A 210 grain .410 Hornady XTP on top of a good load of Winchester 296 powder.
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  #28  
Old 08-26-2015, 10:12 PM
Taroman Taroman is offline
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Federal Guard Dog 45.
Runs perfect in my LW Defender and easy to control.
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  #29  
Old 08-26-2015, 11:12 PM
Sailormilan2 Sailormilan2 is offline
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9mm....Winchester Ranger LE 115gr JHP +P+
Officer's Model 1911....230 FMJ(I know it feeds)
Full size 1911s....PMC 185 JHP(all I could find)
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  #30  
Old 08-26-2015, 11:39 PM
Cappi Cappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
I am curious why you prefer the 147gn 9mm to the 124gn; the former produces a little more momentum, the latter a little more KE...
mostly physiologically, i suppose
I favor the heavier slug

may go back to my days of reading Elmer Kieth when i was young .


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  #31  
Old 08-27-2015, 02:26 AM
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dsk dsk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertrwalsh View Post
The "best ammo" argument is one I confess I find amusing. If it feeds properly in your weapon, you can control it well and it is not a round nose solid it should do the job nicely. Arguing about Critical Defense vs. SilverTip vs. GoldDot vs. Whatever is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Exactly. Most modern name-brand JHPs are comparable in performance within the same caliber, assuming we're talking duty calibers like the 9mm and above. They're all competing for LE contracts and all have to meet minimum FBI standards. I only start to worry about it when I use a .380 or smaller, because a lot of those loads still don't perform worth a damn and/or can be temperamental feeders in some guns.
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  #32  
Old 08-27-2015, 03:17 AM
Boge Boge is offline
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Originally Posted by dsk View Post
...I only start to worry about it when I use a .380 or smaller, because a lot of those loads still don't perform worth a damn and/or can be temperamental feeders in some guns.

Yet I know countless people who compete/target shoot with 1911's, service caliber Glocks, etc., yet carry a pipsqueak .380 because it's "comfortable". People never cease to amaze me.
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  #33  
Old 08-27-2015, 03:28 AM
stanhou stanhou is offline
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I like Hornadys Critical Defense. The poly insert is meant to keep heavy clothing from jamming up a hollow point, but I have another benefit. The poly insert helps it feed better than hollow points.
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  #34  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:28 PM
Ron R. Ron R. is offline
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Thanks for all the great information. Much appreciated!!!!!

I saw some links already regarding the best places to buy ammo. Is anyone better than the other......price, shipping?
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  #35  
Old 08-28-2015, 12:36 AM
Ventura Guy Ventura Guy is offline
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Do you use different ammo for HD vs Carry

I want to get some feedback if anyone uses different ammo for HD vs carry. I normally load my HD pistols with Federal Guard Dog and plan to carry Winchester PDX1. With 2 little boys at home, I feel Guard dog is a safer choice. But if I am outside the home I feel I need something that can punch through a windshield if necessary. What is your opinion on my ammo choices. Do you guys use different ammo depending on your surroundings?
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  #36  
Old 08-28-2015, 12:57 AM
fistful fistful is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron R. View Post
I also would like recommendations on the best self-defense ammo.
The most important thing is that it works well in your specific gun, and shoots accurately. You may have to try more than one. Here's some info on self-defense ammo:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=291745


Info on where to buy:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=367824


There are more threads at the top of the Ammo Can forum. They're ones that have been closed, and "stickied," because people found them helpful.



For range ammo, I've been using Fiocchi, Winchester White Box, and the Winchester stuff in the brown, military-looking box.
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  #37  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:26 AM
Nork1911A1 Nork1911A1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron R. View Post
I also would like recommendations on the best self-defense ammo. Thanks in advance for your help.
I reload my range fodder. Cheaper (and better) than store bought, IMHO.

For SD use, my pistols like 230gr HydraShoks & Golden Saber.
I working on Golden Saber, XTP & Gold Dot reloads for possible SHTF use.

Any premium HP rounds should meet you needs, if your pistol is reliable with them.
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  #38  
Old 08-28-2015, 05:47 AM
v1911 v1911 is offline
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If you like the design of Critical Defense, go with Critical Duty and get the bonded bullet. Eliminates the chance of jacket separation that Critical Defense seems to suffer from.
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  #39  
Old 08-28-2015, 06:49 AM
RABULL RABULL is offline
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It works for me.......I use Speer Gold Dot 230 grain JHP or Remington 230 grain Golden Speer in .45ACP and it works great! Same in 9mm in the 124 grain + works great........
Same with the .40 S & W in the 180 grain works great also..................................
It makes it easy for me in keeping things simple.........
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  #40  
Old 08-28-2015, 06:58 AM
Corrigun Corrigun is offline
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You are over thinking it. Just find a good load from the list and stick with it.
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  #41  
Old 08-28-2015, 09:36 AM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrigun View Post
You are over thinking it. Just find a good load from the list and stick with it.
^^^THIS^^^

Choose a quality, reputable bullet/load that functions flawlessly in your gun, and stick with it.

There's really no such thing as a "safer" load when you potentially have friendlies downrange (unless you get into the frangibles, which no professional would destroy their reputation by recommending). While pistol rounds will penetrate several layers of sheetrock, that's generally under ideal 'lab' conditions. Real houses have framing, furniture , and all sorts of barriers between rooms...

A consideration (and there's a thread in the General discussion on the subject) is that IF you swap loads every time you leave the house or return home, you'll wind up cycling your ammo in and out of the gun several times a day. Over time, this can cause bullet setback...
Additionally, the bulk of negligent discharges occurs while loading or unloading; doing this many times a day increases your exposure to this risk.
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  #42  
Old 08-28-2015, 11:31 AM
GlenS GlenS is offline
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Disregarding popular advise I load my own carry ammo. I've had some factory loads that had no powder in them. I carry either a 9mm Glock 19 Gen4 or a Kimber full size 1911. For 9mm I use 6.4 grains of Power Pistol and a 124 grain Speer Golddot bullet. For the 45 ACP I use 230 grain Speer GoldDot bullet and 6.5 grains Power Pistol. I use either new or used brass that has been cleaned. For cleaning I vibrate them using corncob media and Flitz cleaner. I manually clean each primer pocket and clean inside with 00 steel wool. I visually verify every powder charge using a Dillion 550B loader. For practice I use the same powder charge with FMJ bullets from Precision Delta. So far so good!
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  #43  
Old 08-28-2015, 12:37 PM
JonD29 JonD29 is offline
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185 gr. Critical Defense in my XDs, recommended to me as a better round for short-barreled 45s. Bought a couple boxes that I've just about shot through. 230 gr. Remington Golden Sabre when I'm carrying a 1911. Mainly because it is readily available near me. Have some Federal HST inbound to check out.

Any recommendations on carry ammo for a 357 magnum snubbie (SP101)? I've got Critical Duty in it now, but they're a bear of a load to shoot more than a few times at the range.
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  #44  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:35 PM
SpringerEMP SpringerEMP is offline
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Federal HST 147gr for 9mm and 230gr for the 45. Shoots well and feeds reliable.
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  #45  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:55 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Latest from Dr. Roberts:

Quote:
2/6/15

When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:



As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .



Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr +P PT
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Speer Gold Dot 165 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition.

Here are some useful resources:

http://www.winchester.com/Site...-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
http://winchesterle.com/SiteCollecti...20Protocol.pdf

http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/l...omparison.aspx
http://le.atk.com/resources/videos.aspx
http://le.atk.com/resources/technical_bulletins.aspx


------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
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  #46  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:56 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Dr. Roberts and others all list a very similar set of criteria, or rules, that are necessary to surviving any situation that could be lethal. To me, these five things are as follows:

1. Shot Placement and Repeatability. If you can't hit the bad guy center of mass, you are simply not going to be able to defend yourself adequately. Likewise, if you can't follow up with more shots to center of mass, you are significantly reducing the odds.

This brings up the old adage "Shoot until the threat stops". Shoot enough to win. Whether you want to shoot or not, if you MUST use deadly force, don't worry about how many bullets you have to use to stop the threat. Just keep shooting until it stops, or you run out of ammo.

2. Cultivate the warrior mindset. Or, as is attributed to Mark Twain and Jeff Cooper (i've seen many attributions for this one) "Be kind and courteous to everyone you meet, but have a plan to kill each one." Does this mean you should WANT to kill anyone? Nope. But if the time comes that you have to use that weapon to defend yourself or your loved ones, you WILL be faced with the psychological repercussions and in that moment you will have to find out if you are able to take a life if necessary. Being psychologically ready to accept the burden of what WILL happen if this comes to pass is key. You MUST be able to think clearly when it comes to it. You MUST be able to act on a plan and take stock of the situation and keep yourself and others not involved safe.

3. Use enough gun, and make sure that gun works. A gun that sits in a holster and rusts, or even sits in a safe and collects dust, is useless. Likewise, all the fancy ammunition and hi-tech stuff in the world is great, but if your gun doesn't run on it, it's a paper weight. Ball ammunition has killed more people in this world than Hollowpoints ever have. Yes, that's because the HP design is both new to the game AND is not allowable under the rules of war. But, at the end of the day, if your gun only runs on ball and that's what you need to use, then use it. Let NO man tell you you're under gunned because you use ball ammo.

4. Following on item 1, practice practice practice. As a shooter, just standing and addressing a target at a range is not enough. In a life or death situation, you WILL find yourself having to utilize movement in combat, you MAY have to shoot weak hand, and you WILL have to utilize cover and concealment. While you may not think yourself to be shooter enough to compete with the likes of Robbie Leatham in the USPSA matches, the local club's IDPA and IPSC matches are a blast to shoot, and they WILL push you out of your comfort zone for combat shooting. Also, investing in and continuing to invest in training to perfect and keep up your skills is a good thing. A little fun playing on the range never hurt anyone, and it could save your life.

5. Above all, utilize EVERY tactical and technological advantage you have available to you. According to Jeff Cooper, "always cheat, always win." You don't NEED hollowpoints to get the job done. But, hollowpoint ammunition that performs well and has a LONG track record of performance offers you a technological advantage. The hollowpoint, once expanded, WILL present a larger surface to damage tissue, and WILL create a bigger hole.

We know that blood loss and hits to the central nervous system are the only reliable methods of incapacitating a target. Period. In a moment of rage or adrenaline or drug-induced stupor, No psychological effects are guaranteed in an attacker, and as has been shown repeatedly, very often an attacker WILL NOT be stopped by a single gunshot, or even a LOT of gun shots.

With that in mind, making as many/the biggest holes as possible will increase your chances of stopping the threat. Likewise, ANY tactical advantage you can use to throw off your attacker is a good thing. Throw things at him, use a light to blind him, anything that will force him to break off an attack and give you any kind of advantage.
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  #47  
Old 08-28-2015, 01:57 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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More Reading here: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=291745
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  #48  
Old 08-28-2015, 02:12 PM
wccountryboy wccountryboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaKilo View Post
Latest from Dr. Roberts:
The problem that I see with the 2 images used is twofold:

- They are both at least 15, maybe 20 years old- I believe I remember seeing the get test image in the mid 90s.

- Neither specifies what bullet design was used, beyond JHP- no mention of bullet design or brand...

Ultimately, its old, non specific data. For example, the second image shows a .45ACP @ .74"; there are commercially available .45s that will consistently expand to 1.0", +/- .002".
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  #49  
Old 08-28-2015, 02:40 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wccountryboy View Post
The problem that I see with the 2 images used is twofold:

- They are both at least 15, maybe 20 years old- I believe I remember seeing the get test image in the mid 90s.

- Neither specifies what bullet design was used, beyond JHP- no mention of bullet design or brand...

Ultimately, its old, non specific data. For example, the second image shows a .45ACP @ .74"; there are commercially available .45s that will consistently expand to 1.0", +/- .002".
As example images, they're fine. If you want more specific research data, I can provide you with a buttload of data.

Also, Dr. Roberts includes those as exemplar images to show the limited difference in cavitation between 9mm and other calibers, which also holds true in modern testing.

Dr. Gary Roberts is well known in the community, and to Law Enforcement and the Military, as an expert on ballistics and testing, and has been doing so for over 20 years now. His data here is shorthand, but it's based on extensive testing he and his team have conducted, and real-world data gathered in the field.

So, no, there's no problem with the images, because they're not meant to denote anything other than some brief examples.
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  #50  
Old 09-15-2015, 03:32 PM
majortoo majortoo is offline
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Originally Posted by Triple Threat View Post
Well stated.

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