Medical Evaluation of Handgun and Rifle Effectiveness - 1911Forum
1911Forum
Advertise Here
Forum   Reviews   Rules   Legal   Site Supporters & Donations   Advertise


Go Back   1911Forum > >

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-01-2012, 08:10 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 12,289
Medical Evaluation of Handgun and Rifle Effectiveness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8Y...ature=youtu.be

WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT.
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum.
http://www.sofrep.com and http://loadoutroom.com -- Check us out on the web!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-01-2012, 08:26 PM
Bullseye1911 Bullseye1911 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Out in the sticks, away from Liberal Leeches
Age: 55
Posts: 6,984
I had seen the vid already but Im sure many have not, thanks for sharing

For the ones that still argue 9mm vs .45acp
12:29-12:41 in the video tells the tale of smaller vs larger bullets, the larger diameter bullet will always have the edge

There are times that I carry a 9mm but if I have a choice I always try to carry the biggest caliber that I can conceal
__________________
3.Dont argue with someone stupid, they win by bringing you down to their level and then they beat you with experience.
Libtards will soon start labeling the Bible hate speech. Wait for it
The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED, Be safe
NRA Life Member and NO I dont do Facebook
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Rotor23 Rotor23 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 47
Excellent. thanks for sharing
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:31 PM
physics108 physics108 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 12
Gunshot Wound Forensics

One of the things about the video that was interesting to me was the case of the person who had received two shots to the upper thorax with hollow-point .40 S&W rounds and survived.

One of the rounds did little damage, since its wound track missed vital organs and blood vessels The other round was a potential killer, as it was heading directly for a major blood vessel but stopped about 1cm short. I believe that the surgeon said that had the bullet reached the vessel the person would have probably bled to death quickly.

Apparently, both bullets had fully expanded but the second bullet had penetrated insufficiently. My guess on this is that the second bullet had encountered a hard barrier, probably the sternum or a rib bone, fully expanded and thus had dissipated too much of its kinetic energy for the bullet to fully penetrate the chest.

This is the problem that I have with hollow-point ammo, the uncertainty of how the bullet will perform in a real life situation.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-03-2013, 05:35 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 12,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by physics108 View Post
One of the things about the video that was interesting to me was the case of the person who had received two shots to the upper thorax with hollow-point .40 S&W rounds and survived.

One of the rounds did little damage, since its wound track missed vital organs and blood vessels The other round was a potential killer, as it was heading directly for a major blood vessel but stopped about 1cm short. I believe that the surgeon said that had the bullet reached the vessel the person would have probably bled to death quickly.

Apparently, both bullets had fully expanded but the second bullet had penetrated insufficiently. My guess on this is that the second bullet had encountered a hard barrier, probably the sternum or a rib bone, fully expanded and thus had dissipated too much of its kinetic energy for the bullet to fully penetrate the chest.

This is the problem that I have with hollow-point ammo, the uncertainty of how the bullet will perform in a real life situation.
You do realize that failure to expand and loss of energy are two separate issues, right? Penetration is a factor, but failing to expand does not equate to a massive loss of kinetic energy -- the reason it lost energy such as a barrier equates to massive loss of kinetic energy and thus penetration.
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum.
http://www.sofrep.com and http://loadoutroom.com -- Check us out on the web!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:25 PM
Tuna1911 Tuna1911 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye1911 View Post
I had seen the vid already but Im sure many have not, thanks for sharing

For the ones that still argue 9mm vs .45acp
12:29-12:41 in the video tells the tale of smaller vs larger bullets, the larger diameter bullet will always have the edge

There are times that I carry a 9mm but if I have a choice I always try to carry the biggest caliber that I can conceal
Go big or go home!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-10-2013, 08:41 PM
jrussell9109 jrussell9109 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bloomington IL
Posts: 351
Well since we generally carry 8+1 in the chamber for our 1911's I think thats plenty of ammo to do the job!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-15-2013, 12:29 PM
Corny357 Corny357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Big Easy
Posts: 757
I have noticed that many of the pistol shootings over in the sandbox allwoed people to run away even when shot as evidenced by this presentation. I will say though most times .45 shots didnt run far or went able to run. I didnt notice a difference between using fmj or HP there at least.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:46 PM
SKIandSKY SKIandSKY is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,219
It is pretty graphic!

I remember reading that 70% of handgun hits are non fatal whereas 70% of rifle hits are fatal.

S&S
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-18-2013, 06:20 PM
wpage wpage is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Stouts Creek
Posts: 375
Very informative...
__________________
God so loved the world He gave His only Son...
...Believe in Him and have everlasting life.
John 3:16
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-21-2013, 02:02 PM
meandbooboo meandbooboo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: florida
Posts: 26
Corny357

Thanks for the "real world" observations. I wasnt aware that they were using H.P's over in the "sandbox", but I had my suspicions as others have too.

Try telling this to DeltaKilo whom I have been having this very same argument!

Guy thinks that H.P's possess some magical powers over other types.

He will throw theoretical mathmatical formulas at you all day in some form of jibberish as opposed to your real world experience.

Gary
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-21-2013, 02:23 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 12,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by meandbooboo View Post
Corny357

Thanks for the "real world" observations. I wasnt aware that they were using H.P's over in the "sandbox", but I had my suspicions as others have too.

Try telling this to DeltaKilo whom I have been having this very same argument!

Guy thinks that H.P's possess some magical powers over other types.
Uhm, nope, I never said that they do. I said that they make, when they work, a larger wound channel. Larger surface area and diameter of a flat edged profile == larger wound channel. Or are you saying that this doesn't happen?


Quote:
He will throw theoretical mathmatical formulas at you all day in some form of jibberish as opposed to your real world experience.

Gary
I have never used mathematical formulas. I have stated clear facts that I have myself observed, and that have been observed by trauma surgeons, pathologists, and men in the field who look at gunshot wounds.

Or does that not count, Gary?
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum.
http://www.sofrep.com and http://loadoutroom.com -- Check us out on the web!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-21-2013, 02:34 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 12,289
Gary,

I think we're talking past each other, so maybe we can put this to rest:

Hollowpoints can, if they expand, do more damage per shot.

Wadcutters do more damage than ball, are arguably more reliable as they don't need to expand, and penetrate deeply.

FMJ Ball generally will work, but is not going to do as much damage as either a wadcutter or a Hollowpoint.

Shot Placement makes more difference than type of bullet, and a person should shoot whatever they plan to carry enough to verify their guns work with the ammo, they can use the ammo comfortably and successfully, and they have a ready supply of it, whatever that may be.

All the arguing about the nuances of wound diameters and all that is academic, and we'll agree to disagree on our viewpoints on that, needless to say, it's about like arguing farenheit vs. celsius, both will do the job.

Work for you? Yes? Good. Now let's put aside the horse hockey and agree to be friends.

DK
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum.
http://www.sofrep.com and http://loadoutroom.com -- Check us out on the web!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-21-2013, 02:41 PM
meandbooboo meandbooboo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: florida
Posts: 26
Physics108

Couldnt agree with you more. All the wonderful stories we hear about deep penetration AND massive expansion arent always true are they? Its quite obvious that the more a H.P.expands, the more mass it will be pushing, thus shedding its energy, or ability to penetrate more deeply. That is my problem with them as well. In my book, a.45 caliber hole made by a FMJ or semiwacutter that penetrates deep enough, in the case you cited, 1 cm. to reach major vessels/organs reliably and doesnt rely on expansion is superior to the iffy performance of H.P's. The propaganda put forth by the manufacturers and some others on this forum doesnt always equate to real world performance especially in todays era of shorter barrled autos with the additional loss of velocity that facilitates the initiation of the hydraulic pressure expended on the side walls of the H.P. to expand.

Gary
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-21-2013, 03:06 PM
meandbooboo meandbooboo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: florida
Posts: 26
DeltaKilo,

Good enough. Your points are not absurd to me by any means. I often load up with H.P's in my Kimber .45's. I hope I never have to shoot anyone with any gun/bullet.
Its just seems that our experiences with the H.P's are different. I have found that WHEN they do work, the resilts can be spectacular. MY OBSERVATIONS have been that they do fail frequently. Your personal experience and the data you cite is at odds with my experience. Hey, you said it,I said it, use what you want, are competent and comfortable with. I am obviously a fan of deep penetration that doesnt rely on expansion. With that comes the addtional responsiblity of over penetration and possibly having to pick your shots/angles carefully in a crowded arena. Jim Cirillo often said that. Most of my experience involving flesh using all types of bullets has been on game animals ranging from woodchucks, bear and 1000 lb moose in ME.

I said I respect anyone who has done their homework as you obviously have, and those that actually get out there and shoot, shoot shoot!

By the way, I also once owned a nice H&K USP, full size .45. I loved it but as I get older (57) I am tending to carry lighter,smaller guns, but I aint giving up on the .45! Hence my daliance into, "do H.P's reliably expand in a 3" Kimber Ultra". So far, my experiments are iffy. I have not tried the Speer, short barrled .45 ammo yet. Have read some things on it though. Have you tried any of this in a short barrel friend?

Hope to learn more from you!

Gary
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-21-2013, 05:02 PM
Rooster-Cogburn Rooster-Cogburn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 541
DK thanks for sharing, a good video that breaks it down to the point where your average HS graduate can understand. Unlike most politically motivated crap, this goes from start to finish with no industry interest or bias. I plan on sharing with people that are new to shooting. It took me a long time to learn this stuff from piecing together a lot of experience, shooting, reading, and studying load data. I plan on sharing with my friends that are shooters, and particularly the novices. Some great numbers in there. We need to share this with the anti gun crowd. particularly the part that compares car accidents to firearm accidents.

Every time I see this type of data, it never ceases to amaze me how many people still believe that their more convenient pistol is as effective for HD as a shotgun or rifle. I guess that's what you get when you ask the question on a pistol forum.

Quote:
Its quite obvious that the more a H.P.expands, the more mass it will be pushing, thus shedding its energy, or ability to penetrate more deeply.
I agree. During the winter I regularly carry FMJ and ball. These days most of my carry mags are a mix of different HP, ball and FMJ. The only certainty in an equation with so many variables is unpredictability.
__________________
"Coon Hunt!?!...This ain't no Coon hunt!"
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-30-2013, 10:18 PM
Maromero Maromero is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Outside the continental U.S.
Age: 49
Posts: 213
Well I'm dumbfounded. Heavy bullets for me from now on. I will stick with 147s and 230s and maybe throw several FMJ per magazine too.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-01-2013, 08:11 AM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 12,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maromero View Post
Well I'm dumbfounded. Heavy bullets for me from now on. I will stick with 147s and 230s and maybe throw several FMJ per magazine too.
That's a sound plan, as long as you're using wadcutter, semi-wadcutter, or JHP bullets. Round-nose FMJ tend to do less damage and aren't quite as effective.
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum.
http://www.sofrep.com and http://loadoutroom.com -- Check us out on the web!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-01-2013, 11:36 AM
Leftie Leftie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKIandSKY View Post
It is pretty graphic!

I remember reading that 70% of handgun hits are non fatal whereas 70% of rifle hits are fatal.

S&S

Look at the differences between short barreled rifle ballistics and 16"+ barrel ballistics on the terminal end for 5.56 rounds; it's a case of velocity being a huge factor in how wound cavities form. Small bullets that aren't traveling fast enough to fragment, expand and or yaw don't incapacitate as well as big bullets at similar velocities. There's a particularly nasty picture of someone in the Philippines who was shot with a 20" barreled M16A1 and XM193. The amount of kinetic energy transferred on impact of the projectile caused a huge temporary cavity and a relatively large permanent cavity as well, but the temporary cavity shredded the surrounding tissue in an unbelievably gruesome way.

Fast forward to short-barreled rifles firing small but heavier bullets, and you wonder why you don't see the same terminal effects as what comes from a 20" barrel; the velocity has dropped from a level (3000fps give or take from a 20" barrel) that greatly facilitated the creation of a temporary cavity and fragmentation to sometimes just under 2000fps. The difference in temporary cavity and fragmentation will be night and day due to the bullet losing 1/3 of its velocity, and therefore part of the kinetic energy that it carries. There are other factors in play, but velocity has a lot to do with the creation of a temporary cavity, which damages organs and tissue around the permanent cavity.

To get back on the point of the entire thread though, DeltaKilo has sound logic. Hollow points, when they work, do more damage than a FMJ. Heavier bullets retain energy better than lighter ones, so they will theoretically penetrate deeper than a lighter bullet at the same velocity.

I feel that meandbooboo's points are valid, but, given the range of ammunition that is at the modern gun-owner's disposal currently, I think that many of his points fail to realize that we can have the best of both worlds. If a hollow point feeds reliably in your firearm and you trust it to function flawlessly and penetrate deeply enough, then use it by all means! If HPs aren't your thing because your gun doesn't like them, then use something else; a .45" diameter lead pill landing on target will make a very bad day for the receiving end- two or more will make for an exponentially worse day.

On an interesting note, the .357 Magnum seems to exist within a "sweet spot" ballistically.

This debate can go on and on, because there's more than one way to reach optimal energy transfer and wounding. Small bullets traveling fast that yaw and fragment upon contact with tissue make very nasty wounds. Large bullets that move much more slowly but punch through tissue, bone and organs while expanding yield different results, but with the similar terminal effect.

One thing that I think that we can all agree on is that if a particular bullet doesn't penetrate enough to reach vital organs, then it's not effective in the most basic way.

Last edited by Leftie; 05-01-2013 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-01-2013, 01:13 PM
Snakeshooter17 Snakeshooter17 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Southern Idaho
Posts: 2,231
My current carry load is the 185-gr. Golden Saber. I go to college classes where there are lots of bystanders. I go with a proven, lightweight bullet to lessen the chance of overpenetration. My reload is an 8 round magazine of 230-gr. Fiocchi JHPs at 850 FPS, which is a nasty load. If I had the money and they were available, I'd go with 230-gr HSTs. My second reload is a mag of PMC ball ammo at 850 FPS.
__________________
Live life like it's meant to be lived: righteous and with a purpose. If anyone tries to stop you from doing that, God helped John Moses Browning help you.

"It's not a sewing machine. It's a rugged, bitch-slapping, war winning machine, and it's not taking prisoners." -- MGould
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-02-2013, 02:15 PM
sousana sousana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,650
Speaking as a US Navy Corpsman (ret), Paramedic, 4 year veteran of the IDF, and as a RN working an ER in a very busy city, I can say I've seen many a bullet wound, on the battlefield where ammunition is ball, chances of survival are greater and chances of losing a limb or body part are less than in a city/inner city type environment where I've noticed many of the handguns that I have confiscated to hold for LEO's were loaded with hollow points, as were many if not most of all wounds coming into the ER.

My choice for concealed carry in the summer is 45acp Frangible ammunition in the primary magazine followed by 3 spares loaded with PMC 230gr JHP Starfire ammunition and the 4th spare loaded with 255gr ball Buffalo bore ammo.

When I carry my 9mm it's loaded with GECO BAT rounds.
__________________
Semper Fi HM1 2nd MarDiv 1985-2002 לפעמים אדם עונה גורלו על הכביש הוא לקח כדי למנוע אותו.http://s227.photobucket.com/albums/d...olomansousana/
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-21-2013, 05:37 PM
Lonestar3 Lonestar3 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 154
The discussion on JHP vs. FMJ pistol ammo always reminds me of a comment made by a shooter buddy who is a RN-EMT in a large hospital. This is not scientific at all but he said in his experience patients shot with FMJ ammo "die more often."The reason is penetration. Deeper penetration damages more blood vessels and nerve supply. The wounds to major organs are more numerous and therefore take longer to repair in surgery. Simple example is a JHP that stops in the liver. One wound to repair vs the FMJ that passes in and out-making two "holes" and maybe continues on to sever the aorta and exit through the cervical spinal cord. This makes sense to me but I still carry FMJ because of its immediate stopping power and its also less likely to pass thru the BG and hit someone else. However, for defense in my home I use FMJ in case its necessary to shoot thru doors, walls etc. But, I have no kids or close neighbors to worry about. My object in home intruder defense is also not to simply stop the threat. It is to make sure the threat never comes back. Ever.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-21-2013, 07:34 PM
DeltaKilo DeltaKilo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Coloma, MI
Posts: 12,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonestar3 View Post
The discussion on JHP vs. FMJ pistol ammo always reminds me of a comment made by a shooter buddy who is a RN-EMT in a large hospital. This is not scientific at all but he said in his experience patients shot with FMJ ammo "die more often."The reason is penetration. Deeper penetration damages more blood vessels and nerve supply. The wounds to major organs are more numerous and therefore take longer to repair in surgery. Simple example is a JHP that stops in the liver. One wound to repair vs the FMJ that passes in and out-making two "holes" and maybe continues on to sever the aorta and exit through the cervical spinal cord. This makes sense to me but I still carry FMJ because of its immediate stopping power and its also less likely to pass thru the BG and hit someone else. However, for defense in my home I use FMJ in case its necessary to shoot thru doors, walls etc. But, I have no kids or close neighbors to worry about. My object in home intruder defense is also not to simply stop the threat. It is to make sure the threat never comes back. Ever.
I don't argue with most of your wall of text except for the two holes theory. Unless that bullet continues on to disrupt a major blood carrying structure or hits the spine, any further damage on the other side of the organ cavity is of diminished use as comparatively, damage to muscle and skin doesn't do much and one hole or two, the blood loss into the body cavity continues without surgery.

However there are enormous variables involved, and it comes down to this: an fmj ball round doesn't make as big of a hole as a wadcutter, and a wadcutter doesn't make as big of a hole as an expanded jhp. Make big holes, make lots of holes, and make lots of big holes. You'd be stupid not to.
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum.
http://www.sofrep.com and http://loadoutroom.com -- Check us out on the web!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-22-2013, 10:07 AM
sousana sousana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,650
Lonestar, i spent my career in the navy as a corpsman and licensed paramedic assigned to usmc units, today i maintain my emt-p licensure but now work as an RN in a major ER. The overwhelming majority of those presenting in our er with gsw from fmj survive. The overwhelming majority of those presenting with hp gsw will die primarily from massive trauma and system damage. Fmj tend to enter and exit in neat holes and tend to deflect easily when contacting bone, and when contacting organs, if its near the edges, will tend to push them out of the way.

Take down in gsw your looking to cause massive trauma to bodily organs which hp create far far better than fmj. Im in the process of obtaining data regarding this very topic to finish my MSN, masters in nursing.

One item i carried a lot of in my unit one was loads of BVE, blood volume expander.

A person with a through and through in the leg stands a better chance of keeping that leg, than does one getting a decent sized piece of shrapnel, because the shrapnel will cause far more shock trauma to the leg.
__________________
Semper Fi HM1 2nd MarDiv 1985-2002 לפעמים אדם עונה גורלו על הכביש הוא לקח כדי למנוע אותו.http://s227.photobucket.com/albums/d...olomansousana/
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-08-2014, 12:07 PM
Rngr 75 Rngr 75 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 29
Hollow point failures

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics108 View Post
One of the things about the video that was interesting to me was the case of the person who had received two shots to the upper thorax with hollow-point .40 S&W rounds and survived.

One of the rounds did little damage, since its wound track missed vital organs and blood vessels The other round was a potential killer, as it was heading directly for a major blood vessel but stopped about 1cm short. I believe that the surgeon said that had the bullet reached the vessel the person would have probably bled to death quickly.

Apparently, both bullets had fully expanded but the second bullet had penetrated insufficiently. My guess on this is that the second bullet had encountered a hard barrier, probably the sternum or a rib bone, fully expanded and thus had dissipated too much of its kinetic energy for the bullet to fully penetrate the chest.

This is the problem that I have with hollow-point ammo, the uncertainty of how the bullet will perform in a real life situation.
Years ago, while I was an active duty peace officer, I had to shoot an armed suspect. My department was issuing WW 185gr Silvertips; I hit the perpetrator twice in his upper chest. One round exhibited textbook expansion while the other broke into four variously sized fragments. Penetration matters.

Last edited by DeltaKilo; 10-08-2014 at 12:12 PM. Reason: fixed user's quotation
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:45 AM.


NOTICE TO USERS OF THIS SITE: By continuing to use this site, you certify that you have read and agree to abide by the Legal Terms of Use. All information, data, text or other materials ("Content") posted to this site by any users are the sole responsibility of those users. 1911Forum does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity, or quality of such Content.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2015 1911Forum.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved